What part of sound is not measurable? - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 10:16 AM
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'Specially if you're a deaf mofo like Neil Young or Pete Townshend

LMAO! Unbelievably funny Chu............as usual. Outstanding.
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post #302 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 11:35 AM
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If you don't take audio seriously, it can easily become something that nobody should take seriously.

Very, very well said, Arny.

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post #303 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 11:45 AM
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Thank god Ms. Spears takes it seriously!

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #304 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 12:40 PM
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Thank god Ms. Spears takes it seriously!

Stop it, you're killing me.
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post #305 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Not to use too broad of a brush, but I applaud any company that takes full advantage (legally) of it's intended target market.

Jibberjabber, I actually agree but with a disclaimer....Great marketing departments know how to twist it just enough to not be called on it. Look at Monster, nothing they do is illegal but its down right insulting to our intelligence, good thing for them is the fact that the majority of people are ignorant about audio science (btw, that is not a bad thing either!!)

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post #306 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 01:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Jibberjabber, I actually agree but with a disclaimer....Great marketing departments know how to twist it just enough to not be called on it. Look at Monster, nothing they do is illegal but its down right insulting to our intelligence, good thing for them is the fact that the majority of people are ignorant about audio science (btw, that is not a bad thing either!!)

Hence the phrase "vote with your wallet."
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post #307 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jpjibberjabber View Post

Hence the phrase "vote with your wallet."

Sure Caveat emptor is my motto too actually! But we both know that ignorance doesnt stand a chance, you do not care and I do care about that. I want the consumers to be educated!

btw, We are getting off topic! I really want to keep discussion on measurements

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post #308 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 01:58 PM
 
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Sure Caveat emptor is my motto too actually! But we both know that ignorance doesnt stand a chance, you do not care and I do care about that. I want the consumers to be educated!

As long as it's education devoid of bias (especially where Monster's involved). On this forum that's tricky, and for those that aren't used to the AVS MO, it might be hard to extricate the two.

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btw, We are getting off topic! I really want to keep discussion on measurements

Agreed.
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post #309 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jpjibberjabber View Post

Not to use too broad of a brush, but I applaud any company that takes full advantage (legally) of it's intended target market. If people want to spend money on looks, sound, name perception, or voodoo, fine. This is a free market, and since performance issues tend to be subjective form person to person, it's hard to disprove a lack of benefit for a given product.


Try as I might I cannot find an argument against this... A part of me strongly supports the idea of making it very costly to be a fool. Were more of life like that we may have to suffer fewer fools.

"But it's just a flesh wound!"
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post #310 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 02:47 PM
 
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Try as I might I cannot find an argument against this... A part of me strongly supports the idea of making it very costly to be a fool. Were more of life like that we may have to suffer fewer fools.

economic Darwinism
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post #311 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 03:27 PM
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There will never be a shortage of fools according to scientific principles - nature abhors a vacuum therebye ensuring a steady supply of fools.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #312 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

There will never be a shortage of fools according to scientific principles - nature abhors a vacuum therebye ensuring a steady supply of fools.

Do quantum vacuum fluctuations create fool-antifool pairs?

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post #313 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 04:00 PM
 
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Do quantum vacuum fluctuations create fool-antifool pairs?

Yes. It's the basis of our modern political system.
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post #314 of 407 Old 04-03-2009, 04:34 PM
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Unlike matter/antimatter, unfortunately they don't annililate each other. Thus... the thread still exists.
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post #315 of 407 Old 04-04-2009, 07:58 PM
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First of all, I'd like to say that it is extremely difficult and often misleading to make comparisons between different speakers without the use of speaker mover to control positional effects. The positional effects can easily swamp out any true audible differences between the speakers, particularly if the measured differences among them are very small. I used to find that positional effects alone could change the preference rating of a loudspeaker by 20%. That is why Harman spent considerable money on a multichannel and in-wall speaker mover -- so the positional biases are removed from the test.

Secondly, you cannot correlate what you hear to what you measure unless you have comprehensive on and off-axis data like the kind we advocate. You could be hearing brightness in a loudspeaker that has a dip at 2-4kHz on-axis because of its off-axis response. The upper-treble brightness you are hearing could also be due to the 2-4 kHz dip since the dip could produce a release in upward masking - emphasizing the frequency range above the dip. In our listener training exercises, listeners commonly mistake dips as peaks located higher in frequency.

Comprehensive anechoic loudspeaker measurements combined with the right set of in-room measurements can usually explain what you are hearing.

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post #316 of 407 Old 04-04-2009, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post

Yep.

The elements of the performance that they are listening to are well, far above threshold of audibility, and they can hear what they need to hear, modulo ideas about particular instruments, without a good system.

Things like pace, rhythm, timing are characteristics that are well above threshold and can conveyed with 100-7kHz bandwidth and not the cleanest of signals.

The worst speaker in the world does not cause the violin player to sound like he or she has bad intonation, just maybe a bad violin, for instance.

Another way of looking at my proposition is that the musician is listening to himself through the reproduction mechanism. Let us assume a musician of the highest musicianship and highest integrity (a.k.a. he's a snob). He records a cut and while his performance is still fresh in his head he listens to the recording of himself which has been processed through the reproduction chain all the way through the speakers to his ears. I have intentionally frequency shifted up two notes worth. When I ask" is this what you played" he will say no. the question "is this the same as what you played?" is pretty loaded. relative to me when he listens to the playback he is listening for elements beyond my capacity. If it is his intention to communicate those elements and they are somehow "lost" and he is of the highest integrity he will say no. If he doesn't have the greatest in confidence in his memory he will want to re-record the passage on the assumption the loss of transmission was from his head to his trumpet.
when I was in highschool I went to a jazz festival and the headliner was Bill Watrous. there was a buzzing in the speakers and he kept glaring at the sound technicians to fix it. The reasons why he was angry about it only be speculated. Why would he care about the fidelity of the amplification?

My question was deliberately open to interpretation because I didn't want to bias what information content the listener was trying to detect. It is Yes or No answered because a binary response relative to me is in very similiar units. The question is simple enough so that all potential consumers can undergo the same testing procedure and understand the question as the musician. So when a consumer undergoes the evaluation and answers Yes and the musician answers yes, the units of the final transmission are the same. anything lost in the consumer is not the fault of the reproduction chain but lost from the consumer. However, the transmission from musician to consumer relative to me is 100%.
Where the psychoanalyst comes into play is that the test procedure has to have very carefully devised questions. Answering the questions the musican will be thinking of self to self, self to consumer to self, self to technician to self..etc. The consumer too has to understand the questions to result in the same units as the musician otherwise the test is inherently flawed.
(An interesting consequence of this is that relative to me I cannot create a 100% transmission mechanism from an english musician to a japanese consumer, but relative to an english/japanese translator the transmission mechanism can be 100%)

Where the Neural network scientist comes into play is that their expertise is in creating weighted values based on binary input. They also can create optimized search algorithms. If I'm really looking to quantize the importance of phase relative to magnitude (relative to the consumer, relative to me) then a fuzzy logic algorithm can do it.
Another consequence is that to ensure 100% transmission from musician to consumer (relative to me), at the conclusion of the tests they must both answer Yes to all of the questions and flow through the same test algorithm path. The inherent data of interest to the engineer are the weights required to force the question path to the same conclusion. Those are the minimum requirements of 100% fidelity from musican to consumer relative to the engineer.
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post #317 of 407 Old 04-04-2009, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by scientest View Post

Having played in an orchestra or two, a couple of bands and having many musician friends I have found over the years that many musicans are, with a few rare exception, indifferent to the reproduction chain. Many of them will happily listen to a boom box and report that it sounds fine to them. It's all about performance and reproductive accuracy means almost nothing.

The test procedure was not to see what musicans like to hear. It was intended to test what the creating artist wanted to communicate to others. I'ld put money that when it comes to recordings of themselves your friends would be more decerning about the quality of the recording.
How else can you explain how ordinary people desire $$ cameras and HD video cameras when there is no financial gain from the equipment?
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post #318 of 407 Old 04-04-2009, 08:30 PM
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I'ld put money that when it comes to recordings of themselves your friends would be more decerning about the quality of the recording.

I've spent some time on both sides of the sound board. For 80%, probably 90%, of the musicians I know you would loose that bet.
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post #319 of 407 Old 04-04-2009, 08:42 PM
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I've spent some time on both sides of the sound board. For 80%, probably 90%, of the musicians I know you would loose that bet.

If you told them the recording was for 1. a student,2. a peer, 3. a mentor, 4. a recording company do you think that would affect their concern for fidelity?

And when I lost that bet in terms of fidelity are we talking AM, FM or CD?
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post #320 of 407 Old 04-04-2009, 09:11 PM
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If you told them the recording was for 1. a student,2. a peer, 3. a mentor, 4. a recording company do you think that would affect their concern for fidelity?

Don't think it would matter.

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And when I lost that bet in terms of fidelity are we talking AM, FM or CD?

Things that would matter would be things like background noise ( eg. outside noises, not equipment noise floors) and maybe room reverb. Other than that, well they'd ask for CD quality, but.... I've seen musicians home systems include mismatched left and right stereo pairs, boom boxes (or slightly better), speakers everywhere but none of them any good (the louder the better rock and roll type guys), you name it.
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post #321 of 407 Old 04-04-2009, 11:01 PM
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Don't think it would matter.

that's actually the crux of my logic. the relative information from one observer to the next.
I love photography. The photos which I take and post to family is of inferior technical quality to those I post in photography forums. An email I might send to my peer vs my boss is different. Not just the literal content but the tone, which is another information layer riding parallel to the literal content.


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Things that would matter would be things like background noise ( eg. outside noises, not equipment noise floors) and maybe room reverb. Other than that, well they'd ask for CD quality, but.... I've seen musicians home systems include mismatched left and right stereo pairs, boom boxes (or slightly better), speakers everywhere but none of them any good (the louder the better rock and roll type guys), you name it.

Firstly I need it to be clear that the level of fidelity that a musician requires has to be their own material and when the comparison is done it is very preferabley fresh in their mind.
So if this were the playback mechanism of the musician, playing the musicians music, what I interpret is that his mismatched setup meets minimum thresholds to ensure 100% communication transmission back to himself. If I were to replay the recording on a more $ system then the extra quality I hear has nothing to do with his intended communication. It's padding another couple of decimal places when 2 was good enough. And I distinguish this as icing over the cake that I am free to mold and shape as I see fit. In my model this is already outside the realm of fidelity.
And in consideration of the musicians transmission to me it implies that I should be putting more effort into soundproofing the room rather than flattening room reponse.

(Why a musician might want the recording quiet? Just pulling this even deeper from outta my ass but that's how he hears the music in his head even before his lips hit the mouthpiece and that's what he wants to communicate)
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post #322 of 407 Old 04-05-2009, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Unlike matter/antimatter, unfortunately they don't annililate each other. Thus... the thread still exists.

This thread? You don't like this thread?

This thread to me is what AVS is all about, many links, many experts....if people want to learn about measurements and sound this is a good thread for the topic.

I feel sad for those who want to run and hide from the science behind audio, I also never understood why those people are on forums like this period. They should just enjoy their systems.

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post #323 of 407 Old 04-05-2009, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

That is why Harman spent considerable money on a multichannel and in-wall speaker mover -- so the positional biases are removed from the test.

In our listener training exercises, listeners commonly mistake dips as peaks located higher in frequency.

Comprehensive anechoic loudspeaker measurements combined with the right set of in-room measurements can usually explain what you are hearing.

I nominate this for best post of the week.

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post #324 of 407 Old 04-05-2009, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

This thread? You don't like this thread?

This thread to me is what AVS is all about, many links, many experts....if people want to learn about measurements and sound this is a good thread for the topic.

I feel sad for those who want to run and hide from the science behind audio, I also never understood why those people are on forums like this period. They should just enjoy their systems.

The "topic" of the thread is great.

I agree somwhat. This is what the AVS forum should be about. Many links, perhaps a few "experts". Tough to separate the wheat from the chaff though IMO.

I feel sad for those that take some info and want to digest that as "gospel" and run and hide from practical experience/application or personal preference. Period.

I enjoy my system and many others I've auditioned over the years. Personally... I've never been overly critical to actually measure anything. And... that makes my wife happy too.
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post #325 of 407 Old 04-05-2009, 12:43 PM
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I feel sad for those that take some info and want to digest that as "gospel" and run and hide from practical experience/application or personal preference. Period.

That is strawman argument. Period.
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post #326 of 407 Old 04-05-2009, 01:20 PM
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Not an argument at all... an observation.
The strawman has a brain.
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post #327 of 407 Old 04-05-2009, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

The "topic" of the thread is great.

I agree somwhat. This is what the AVS forum should be about. Many links, perhaps a few "experts". Tough to separate the wheat from the chaff though IMO.

I feel sad for those that take some info and want to digest that as "gospel" and run and hide from practical experience/application or personal preference. Period.

I enjoy my system and many others I've auditioned over the years. Personally... I've never been overly critical to actually measure anything. And... that makes my wife happy too.

I really think you are making too many assumptions. For example, I love measurements, I want to know how something is actually better. If it sound better I really want to know why but at the end of the day Im just another guy that loves certain brands, certain looks and will buy based on how something sounds and looks regardless of any measurements. In my room I actually EQ to my own preference, I can do this because I have active crossovers so my speakers can sound different any time I want


I think most here can separate all the measurements talk/learning/etc and the pure enjoyment of a speaker or a piece of equipment. The biggest different between you and someone like me is that I really, really try to leave my subjective hat at the door and when Im posting on this forum I hope Im being as objective as I can be. That is hard and I know Im still subjective about things but I try to include the word "subjective" so that there is no confusion.

There is a happy place somewhere in the middle, I love reading about someone's enjoyment of a new amp, processor, speaker, etc but I hate when they use that enjoyment as a tool to try and convince someone else to buy the same product, measurement, data be damned.

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post #328 of 407 Old 04-05-2009, 02:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I feel sad for those that take some info and want to digest that as "gospel" and run and hide from practical experience/application or personal preference. Period.

Wow, I think I misjudged you. That's a surprising statement coming from you, but welcome!

Measurements are interesting to a point, but to assume they can replace experienced stimulus is a little "off".

We just don't listen using the same parameters used when measuring.
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post #329 of 407 Old 04-05-2009, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jpjibberjabber View Post

Wow, I think I misjudged you. That's a surprising statement coming from you, but welcome!

Measurements are interesting to a point, but to assume they can replace experienced stimulus is a little "off".

We just don't listen using the same parameters used when measuring.

You are completely out of touch with reality if you think anyone here just uses measurements.

Also, are you here just to make silly comments? If you do not have anything scientific to add could you leave my thread alone? I have not found a post from you that is worthy to read period so less from you in my threads is better for me!

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post #330 of 407 Old 04-05-2009, 02:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You are completely out of touch with reality if you think anyone here just uses measurements.

Oh, they're on here, trust me. You know who they are.

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Also, are you here just to make silly comments? If you do not have anything scientific to add could you leave my thread alone? I have not found a post from you that is worthy to read period so less from you in my threads is better for me!

You don't "own" threads, and certainly don't care if something I say isn't "scientific". That requirement is in your head, and frankly your ego problems won't affect my decision to post one way or the other.
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