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post #91 of 119 Old 10-03-2011, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannut View Post


Thank you SAC for joining in.

gearslutz SAC or someone else who was there "back in the day" and speaks from knowledge accumulated over time, either way nice to have his/her expertise in this forum.

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post #92 of 119 Old 10-03-2011, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

Mike-
Do you realize that Dr. Geddes is in Northville and will often host people for a listen, at least he used to. What a day that would make!

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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

I have been there and it was alot of fun. Great system to listen to music. Then we watched movies and drank Scotch. What could be better

This would be a great chance, I sent PM already, guess next step is for me to call them up and make a proposal for a Michigan AVS session.

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post #93 of 119 Old 10-03-2011, 06:39 PM
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who's 'SAC'?
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post #94 of 119 Old 10-03-2011, 09:20 PM
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one letter away from RBD?

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post #95 of 119 Old 10-04-2011, 12:31 AM
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Here's an answer Floyd Toole gave to someone who asked him about sidewall reflections.
Quote:


"Hi Bert.

People who say I dismiss room reflections as unimportant - and there are a few, it seems - simply have not read or understood my book. It is patently obvious that room treatment is necessary, if only to establish conditions suitable for comfortable conversation. This requires reverberation times under 0.5 second. This alone, also pretty much ensures that film dialog will be clearly understood.

The most debated issue relates to first lateral reflections. Some of those arguing vociferously in favor of eliminating them seem to have a conflict of interest, being providers of acoustical materials. Others have more reasoned arguments. I say up front that there can be no universally satisfactory answer because there is no universal scheme for recording stereo or multichannel signals. Only through controlled listening tests can we get useful insights, and these are in short supply. In the meantime opinions reign supreme, and there are many of them.

In the book I show results of several double-blind evaluations, some done by me, some done by others, showing that listeners tend not to be disturbed by lateral reflections, and many even prefer them. I also point out that the professional side of the industry almost universally feels the need to eliminate them. I suggest, respectfully, that humans have a remarkable ability to learn, to adapt, and that recording engineers spending their days adding, adjusting, and removing - at will - delayed sounds from mixes undoubtedly are more highly sensitized to these sounds than are lay listeners. This probably applies to any audio professional, acoustical consultant or enthusiast who focuses enough attention on this task. We learn to hear things and, once heard, they tend not to go away. I well remember that during the resonance detection experiments, we all became extremely skilled at hearing and identifying resonances. During the tests, and for some time afterward, we were hearing little resonances in everyday life that normally would have been totally unnoticed. From such things paranoia is born, and if we had taken this to an extreme, we would have damped our wine glasses.

For stereo listening I have found that it very much depends on the program. Music with lots of decorrelated sounds, classical for example, is sometimes enhanced by reflections, although coincident-mic recordings may benefit from a lack of reflections - letting the direct sounds be more dominant (the Blumlien stereo effects work best in an almost anechoic situation). Pan-potted recordings (the majority of pop) end up delivering essentially monophonic sounds from left and right loudspeakers, and these may well benefit from a bit of spatial enhancement. Otherwise we are left with what really annoys me about stereo: a relatively spatial set of phantom images created by both loudspeakers, and two "anchor" images created by the left and right loudspeakers playing solo. In some recordings we hear a whole string section emerging from a single loudspeaker. Not realistic, and not even pleasant. In the past, I have recommended that serious stereo listeners hang absorbent drapes along each side wall, pulling them out and pushing them back to suit what they are listening to. Our listening room at the National Research Council in Canada had this feature.

In the book, I put more emphasis on multichannel audio, where much of the important sound is delivered by the center loudspeaker, farthest from the side walls. In these situations I conclude that treatment of the side wall reflections is an option. There may be situations in which their effects are audible, but when all 5 or 7 channels are operating, it is improbable that natural room reflections have much of an effect. Other things being equal, the effects of the room are most audible when only a single loudspeaker is operating, and it becomes less so as other loudspeakers (channels) contribute additional uncorrelated sounds.

Of course the degree to which reflections are activated depends on the directional properties of loudspeakers, and the extent to which the loudspeakers are well behaved in their far off-axis responses (side wall reflections can be 50 degrees and more off axis). It has become clear over the years that, with hard side walls, the more uniform the off axis frequency response, the higher the rating of the loudspeaker. So, one has to wonder whether at least some of the dissatisfaction with reflective side walls has to do the misbehaving loudspeakers. Sadly, most manufacturers don't provide us with sufficient data to judge. And that is another, and I would argue much more worthy topic, to argue about.

Best wishes,

Floyd"

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post #96 of 119 Old 10-04-2011, 03:22 AM
 
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Let the cherry picking begin.....
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post #97 of 119 Old 10-04-2011, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

This would be a great chance, I sent PM already, guess next step is for me to call them up and make a proposal for a Michigan AVS session.

I would send him an email. I don't know how often he checks his PM's here.
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post #98 of 119 Old 10-04-2011, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Roughly above 300Hz.

That makes more sense.
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post #99 of 119 Old 10-04-2011, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omholt View Post

Here's an answer Floyd Toole gave to someone who asked him about sidewall reflections.

Good answer. Seems to say, well it depends which I think you will find many acousticians agreeing. Then you have the one size fits all crowd.....and their motives.
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post #100 of 119 Old 10-04-2011, 11:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Good answer.

Brutally accurate? Or is it more "critical".....
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post #101 of 119 Old 10-04-2011, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Good answer. Seems to say, well it depends which I think you will find many acousticians agreeing. Then you have the one size fits all crowd.....and their motives.

would you mind expanding who, specifically, the "one size fits all crowd" is, and what their "motives" are?
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post #102 of 119 Old 10-04-2011, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post

would you mind expanding who, specifically, the "one size fits all crowd" is, and what their "motives" are?

Kill first reflections and I will sell you the acoustic panels to do it. You know you just can't have too many whatever panels, traps, diffusers, etc That is all I am going to say because I like everybody and want to be everyone's friend.
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post #103 of 119 Old 10-04-2011, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Brutally accurate? Or is it more "critical".....

I try to stay away from brutally accurate as I am a peace luvin guy myself and hate to be critical of anyone but my grown kids
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post #104 of 119 Old 10-04-2011, 04:17 PM
 
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....So you're saying it's living room reflections that are the actual problem Super Studioman?
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post #105 of 119 Old 10-05-2011, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post



....So you're saying it's living room reflections that are the actual problem Super Studioman?

And what are *you* saying? I'm not saying you're wrong, but all I hear from your posts is "oh, I'm really a nobody, but if I keep stacking simple dismissive and immature FUD onelines, perhaps no-one will notice I havn't contributed jack **** to this forum, and that I'm simply not man enough to dare elaborate my own views on the matter".

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post #106 of 119 Old 05-21-2012, 07:53 AM
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I believe there is a Michigan based listening room. I am considering using the LSR 6332s for my HT. How does one schedule a tour of the Detroit area facility?
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post #107 of 119 Old 05-21-2012, 10:48 AM
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Why don't more tools exist to assist the average homeowner in gaining maximum value from their audio gear? While no audiophile I prefer to begin with science and provide finishing touches based upon personal preference, but absent tools to aide me in doing so I must rely on a good bit of reading and the ever-present injection of subjectivity regarding that science to get started. I'd love a tool that might capture room dimensions, construction materials, audio gear characteristics (or REW uploads) and tell me specifically where my reflection points might be, whether speaker placement is optional...

Every time I go through an upgrade (fortunately not very often) I begin with high expectations and equally high commitment and soon weary of the task. I need a virtual audio concierge!

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post #108 of 119 Old 05-21-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuttle View Post

I believe there is a Michigan based listening room. I am considering using the LSR 6332s for my HT. How does one schedule a tour of the Detroit area facility?

I've asked same Q a while back, recently Sean Olive in PM sent me contact name, I'll call and see if possible.

btw, I work at an AutoOE and a few weeks back we had "take your child to work day", here's a pict of my daughter in our full vehicle size NVH chamber, this one has full dyno/rollers.
Yea, not a "listening room", but a real full size sound anechoic chamber used to isolate vehicle NVH issues.
I've spent time in here in prior job assignment approving c/m's for NVH issues.

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post #109 of 119 Old 05-21-2012, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Why don't more tools exist to assist the average homeowner in gaining maximum value from their audio gear? While no audiophile I prefer to begin with science and provide finishing touches based upon personal preference, but absent tools to aide me in doing so I must rely on a good bit of reading and the ever-present injection of subjectivity regarding that science to get started. I'd love a tool that might capture room dimensions, construction materials, audio gear characteristics (or REW uploads) and tell me specifically where my reflection points might be, whether speaker placement is optional...

Every time I go through an upgrade (fortunately not very often) I begin with high expectations and equally high commitment and soon weary of the task. I need a virtual audio concierge!

I have been looking into making such a tool, at least for the geometric aspects: for the given room size and seating location, what are the optimal screen sizes and positions, speaker locations, riser height, and first reflection points.

This unfortunately stops short of dealing with acoustic properties based on construction materials, and room modes vs subwoofers. To do that really well is an intensive bit of work, such as developed by Keith Yates and available thru Harman Synthesis as a service, or directly from KYDG.

Roger

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post #110 of 119 Old 05-21-2012, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Why don't more tools exist to assist the average homeowner in gaining maximum value from their audio gear? While no audiophile I prefer to begin with science and provide finishing touches based upon personal preference, but absent tools to aide me in doing so I must rely on a good bit of reading and the ever-present injection of subjectivity regarding that science to get started. I'd love a tool that might capture room dimensions, construction materials, audio gear characteristics (or REW uploads) and tell me specifically where my reflection points might be, whether speaker placement is optional...

Every time I go through an upgrade (fortunately not very often) I begin with high expectations and equally high commitment and soon weary of the task. I need a virtual audio concierge!

As stated for $$$'s those tools are available, but like any CAE simulation, one needs to still grasp the basics/fundamentals to correctly interpret the data.
Good thing, or many engineers would be out of jobs



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I have been looking into making such a tool, at least for the geometric aspects: for the given room size and seating location, what are the optimal screen sizes and positions, speaker locations, riser height, and first reflection points.

This unfortunately stops short of dealing with acoustic properties based on construction materials, and room modes vs subwoofers. To do that really well is an intensive bit of work, such as developed by Keith Yates and available thru Harman Synthesis as a service, or directly from KYDG.


Roger;
Are you going to make an app to replace free software for first reflection points (new faster v1.02) ?
The avs community would so love that!

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post #111 of 119 Old 05-21-2012, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuttle View Post

I believe there is a Michigan based listening room. I am considering using the LSR 6332s for my HT. How does one schedule a tour of the Detroit area facility?

If such a room exists, it is probably automotive-oriented.

PM me your phone number or email, and I will turn it over to someone who works for Harman and knows all about it.
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post #112 of 119 Old 05-21-2012, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If such a room exists, it is probably automotive-oriented.

PM me your phone number or email, and I will turn it over to someone who works for Harman and knows all about it.

Yes it does here in Farmington Hills, Mich, hence I inquired back on 09-29-11 the desire to visit it with a few fellow HEMI members....

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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

ok;

so a 2 year old thread comes back to life...

I have to ask, from the link in post#1:
Quote:


The first prototype reference room was built at the Harman Northridge campus in 2007. Additional reference listening rooms have since been built at Harman locations in the UK, Germany, with the fourth one being constructed in Farmington Hills, Michigan. We are in the process of measuring and calibrating the performances of the different rooms using acoustical measurements and binaural room scans, which will be evaluated for their perceptual similarity in sound quality.

Can AVS members visit the one in Farmington Hills, Michigan? (PM sent to Sean Olive)
I work @ 12 mile/Haggerty.

Maybe a group tour/listening/training session, using this software?
Harman teaches you How to Listen


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post #113 of 119 Old 05-21-2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post


I've asked same Q a while back, recently Sean Olive in PM sent me contact name, I'll call and see if possible.

btw, I work at an AutoOE and a few weeks back we had "take your child to work day", here's a pict of my daughter in our full vehicle size NVH chamber, this one has full dyno/rollers.
Yea, not a "listening room", but a real full size sound anechoic chamber used to isolate vehicle NVH issues.
I've spent time in here in prior job assignment approving c/m's for NVH issues.

Cool pic! Thanks! Wow, a vehicle chamber. I had no idea those existed! Feel free to send me a PM. THANKS!
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post #114 of 119 Old 05-21-2012, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Roger;
Are you going to make an app to replace free software for first reflection points (new faster v1.02) ?
The avs community would so love that!

It would serve the same purpose, but I was planning to build it as a plugin for the SweetHome3D program. Problem, is, I'm not a Java coder (or an any coder) so I'd have to hire resources and figure out a way to fund it. I guess the question is whether combining all these "geometrics" tools (first reflections, riser, screen size, speaker locations), which are all available as separate spreadsheets, into one easy program, justifies the effort/cost.

Roger

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post #115 of 119 Old 04-20-2013, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post


Yes, the lower half of the side walls at the front half of the room is left untreated at the first lateral reflection point (relative to listener and front speakers) to benefit spaciousness and image widening of the front stereo or mono channels. The reasons and benefits are well summarized in Floyd Toole's new book "Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms." These reflections will have less benefit for multichannel reproduction where the reflections in the recording from the side/rear speakers will tend to dominate any spatial effects. In the end, it comes down to a matter of taste and the particular purpose and setup.


Also, we have the flexibility of moving the acoustical treatment around very easily so we can choose to absorb or leave alone the first lateral reflection. If we are conducting listening tests on loudspeakers using the in-wall mover - I prefer to leave the side wall reflection points untreated so listeners can better hear the off-axis effects of the loudspeakers under test. It makes for a tougher test on the loudspeakers which is always good practice.

I've been looking for threads on listening rooms, specifically on how they differ from a HT. This has been the closest that I have found. If I should be elsewhere, my apologies, but if you could direct me...Thank you. Or should I start a new thread?

When I started my research, I contacted the NRC for advise. They put me onto Floyd Toole's book, which I am in the process of reading. It is taking a while!

My hope was to build a room that could easily be converted from one to the other with "perfect" sound reproduction in both venues. Sadly, I am learning that it is hard enough to get "very good" sound in one or the other but not both. My innocent first concept was to simply have a removable treatment panel at the first reflection point, or a hard panel to cover the absorptive panel, as suggested above. Easy enough? No?

The first responses back were to forget it. Should I forget it? Or is there a point in between that could yield an incredible stereo music experience and be good enough for the louder surround sound of a movie. Or is it easier to get acceptable results the other way?

My plan included a dedicated sound systems for music (from source to speaker) and another for movies.


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post #116 of 119 Old 04-21-2013, 08:47 AM
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For stereo playback, the wider the room the better. I built a room that was 17.5 ft wide with the L/R speakers spread 8 ft,(flanking a 65" screen). That left 58" to the side walls, which produced a very wide soundstage...much wider than if the room was 13ft wide with the speakers about 10~11ft apart (flanking a 103", 2.35:1 screen) as in one dealer HT room.

Placing speakers near the side walls as in that dealer room, even with absorption panels placed right there will only suck up the early reflections, but the soundstage will sound very pinched, compared to if there is 4~5ft to the side walls.
And with the room I built, and the speaker setup, it was also very good for MCM/HT.
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post #117 of 119 Old 04-21-2013, 12:31 PM
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Thanks for your reply!

My room is 16' W x 26' D x 10 1/2' H at the speaker/screen end stepping up to 8 1/2' at the back starting about 10' back of the AC screen which is 2' off the back wall. The angles seem to work for up to a 12' 8" wide screen in 2.35:1, leaving 21" on each side, so all speakers will probably be behind the screen. The 2nd and 3rd rows of seating are 1' and 2' off the main floor.

My stereo speakers are the McIntosh XRT 22's, so there are two large base units and two tweeter towers to fit with the theater speakers. It has been suggested that I should not rule them out as L/R's for the theater system. I'm not sold on wides and highs, but then I started off thinking 7.1 and am now at 11.4 (4 - 15" speakers in the stage). But there will be jostling for speaker space up front.

Are there other "easy" switches that could be changed out for music vs movie listening that anyone has tried...and made a difference or not?


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post #118 of 119 Old 04-21-2013, 08:13 PM
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A mixed use home theater and listening room that is great for both is a difficult challenge acoustically. It will always be a compromise.

Newell's designing recording studios book (3rd edition) has some content and discussion on two channel vs. multi-channel room acoustic design, though remember the discussion is focused on control rooms, not domestic reproduction environments.

Depending on your budget and performance goals it might be worthwhile getting help from an acoustician or acoustic treatment company. Make sure they use acoustic measurements in their work not just modeling and also make sure they take the radiation pattern of your speakers into consideration.

There are variable acoustics products such as the Primacoustic FlexiFuser you can use at side walls if you think that is important to have that option for home theater vs two channel.


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post #119 of 119 Old 04-22-2013, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just jim View Post

Thanks for your reply!

My room is 16' W x 26' D x 10 1/2' H at the speaker/screen end stepping up to 8 1/2' at the back starting about 10' back of the AC screen which is 2' off the back wall. The angles seem to work for up to a 12' 8" wide screen in 2.35:1, leaving 21" on each side, so all speakers will probably be behind the screen. The 2nd and 3rd rows of seating are 1' and 2' off the main floor.

My stereo speakers are the McIntosh XRT 22's, so there are two large base units and two tweeter towers to fit with the theater speakers. It has been suggested that I should not rule them out as L/R's for the theater system. I'm not sold on wides and highs, but then I started off thinking 7.1 and am now at 11.4 (4 - 15" speakers in the stage). But there will be jostling for speaker space up front.

Are there other "easy" switches that could be changed out for music vs movie listening that anyone has tried...and made a difference or not?
Personally, I think width/height channels are a waste of money. If you have good quality L/R that produce a good soundstage they should also be good for stereo playback. I've been using one system for both for years.
If you can buy a matching center for the XRT 22, then you are good to go. Or 3 identical LCRs would be best.

I just took a look at those 22's...that is all you need for HT...I would not even consider adding W/H speakers.

Unless a person is running large horn speakers, such as JBL Arrays (which are vertical horns) then keeping the speakers out of the corners is a must. imo
Once you are used to a wide soundstage, anything less is a just plain bad. And I have never heard a system with the mains in the corners that sound worth a damn.
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