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post #1 of 36 Old 07-19-2009, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I am currently running a set up with a sony dvd player used as transport (optical connection) to yamaha Rx661 driving a 5.1 channel set up of Definitive technologies Pro800 cinema + jamo subwoofer (150w).

The system lacks bass in a big way and I feel better quality while listening to a philips two in one system which is way less costlier than my set up in question.

What would be the best way to go ?

1. Upgrading to a dedicated cd player with an expensive transport ( I do understand that with the current set up the sony player is just used as a transport and the conversion is done by the DAC in RX661 which is a Burr Brown one). Shouldnt this give me good sound quality ?

2. Go for a studio reference speaker Klipsch reference series ?

3. Try a different room ? Acoustics ? The above set up is in my living room with just three sides closed and with a mirror sliding door background.

4. Set up a system from scratch if none of the above are good and RX661 is just good enough for a HT set up?

Please advice I am confused !!
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post #2 of 36 Old 07-19-2009, 07:10 AM
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well...

if "the system lacks bass in a big way", then i'd look at what is actually producing that bass...

have you tried?

- moving your sub?
- eq'ing your sub?
- a couple bass traps stuffed in a corner?

have you done any measurements at all?

hint: it's not #1, #2 or #4...

hint 2: if that's the jamo sub that i "think" it is, with all due respect, it's a stretch to call it a "sub"...

- chris

 

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post #3 of 36 Old 07-19-2009, 07:14 AM
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Not being familiar with either your Yamaha or Sony, I would say your problem lies in your settings somewhere along the line. Can you get the gui up for the Sony to see what you have going on there, and also look at your Yamaha for cross over and LFE settings. Odds are your problem lies somewhere in those two areas.

Mike
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post #4 of 36 Old 07-19-2009, 07:16 AM
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I missed the "Jamo" sub. But I would still look at the settings, Jamo or not and go from there.

Mike
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post #5 of 36 Old 07-19-2009, 07:33 AM
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yea, mike, i agree... i "assumed" (bad habit i have lately ) that the poster had the configuration (xover, etc.) correct... never hurts to check settings firsst...

- chris

 

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post #6 of 36 Old 07-19-2009, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys, thanks for your comments:

I have made a test set up now in a different room (closed) its more of squarish one. With bed and other absorbents around they sound better compared to the earlier one.

Previously I had audissey configured the receiver and had disabled it due to poor low frequency responses. Now in the test set up, I am using two Pro 800 monitors with the amplifier and dvd player connected with a optic cable.

No processing inside the receiver - its a straight pass through to the amps using the internal burr browns.

In the pervious set up the monitors were fixed on wall with 12 ft between them and now its just 4 ft.

Last time I had the cross over set at 120Hz as instructed by the docs of the monitors. Thx for the help.

You are right with the Jamos, even though they are able to fill in the upper lows due to the lack of power and a small power its pretty bad. Could you guys point me to a right reading on configuring the sound settings. I am planning to get a sound meter too. Thanks.
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post #7 of 36 Old 07-19-2009, 09:00 AM
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I would move that cross over to 80 or 100 and give that a shot. Audyssey has a strange way of calibrating. I took their settings and tweaked them a bit to get the desired sound in my particular room. I especially did not like the way it handled my LFE settings, virtually eliminated my SVS PC13-Ultra sub. I tweaked, and am happy now with the sound.

Mike
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post #8 of 36 Old 07-19-2009, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I tried 90-100-110 and 120 for cross over settings and 100 seems to makes the low end a bit more fuller.

How much of standardization do you think is possible ? For eg: Doesnt the quality of the source material recording also affect the equaliser settings or is there a one size fits all setting ? I've been fiddling with the settings since the first post and as and when I change the songs unless it is from the same album or recording setting batch I have to go back and keep reducing the treble. The DT procinema ones are pretty bright and after a while the ears starts paining. A good setting should give me listening pleasure of hours altogether rt ? Or are you guys too facing the same fatigue ?
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post #9 of 36 Old 07-19-2009, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdr77 View Post

I tried 90-100-110 and 120 for cross over settings and 100 seems to makes the low end a bit more fuller.

How much of standardization do you think is possible ? For eg: Doesnt the quality of the source material recording also affect the equaliser settings or is there a one size fits all setting ? I've been fiddling with the settings since the first post and as and when I change the songs unless it is from the same album or recording setting batch I have to go back and keep reducing the treble. The DT procinema ones are pretty bright and after a while the ears starts paining. A good setting should give me listening pleasure of hours altogether rt ? Or are you guys too facing the same fatigue ?

dunno, i don't have dt's...

however, if the are too bright, and you can't eq it out, your only "real" option is different speakers...

- chris

 

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post #10 of 36 Old 07-20-2009, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdr77 View Post

I tried 90-100-110 and 120 for cross over settings and 100 seems to makes the low end a bit more fuller.

How much of standardization do you think is possible ? For eg: Doesnt the quality of the source material recording also affect the equaliser settings or is there a one size fits all setting ? I've been fiddling with the settings since the first post and as and when I change the songs unless it is from the same album or recording setting batch I have to go back and keep reducing the treble. The DT procinema ones are pretty bright and after a while the ears starts paining. A good setting should give me listening pleasure of hours altogether rt ? Or are you guys too facing the same fatigue ?

Yes, if you're experiencing fatigue, you can make the sound better. I used to be one that thought every time I changed music the sound changed and that I needed better eq to deal with it across the board... until...
I listened to some "reference" material... with the eq off it still sounded great, not perfect, but great. From that moment on I was convinced about the quality of the source material affecting things more than any other factor. So right now, I have eq'd for a little contour and that's about it. Any recording that doesn't sound good now is blamed on the quality of the mastering, and my room acoustics (which I have yet to treat).
As far as standardization for calibration, yes and no. Some will say ot leave it at a perfectly flat response, others will say there's nothing wrong with getting there and then adding your own preference to the mix. But it definitely pays to buy some relatively inexpensive equipment and pair it with free software and take a few scans to see how your room/system behaves. Only when you know this can you figure out where to go from there.

-Greg
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post #11 of 36 Old 07-20-2009, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdr77 View Post

I tried 90-100-110 and 120 for cross over settings and 100 seems to makes the low end a bit more fuller.

How much of standardization do you think is possible ? For eg: Doesnt the quality of the source material recording also affect the equaliser settings or is there a one size fits all setting ? I've been fiddling with the settings since the first post and as and when I change the songs unless it is from the same album or recording setting batch I have to go back and keep reducing the treble. The DT procinema ones are pretty bright and after a while the ears starts paining. A good setting should give me listening pleasure of hours altogether rt ? Or are you guys too facing the same fatigue ?

My system is pretty well set, Denon 4308ci hooked to some old Polk towers I have had for around 10 years (RT2000i L/R with CS1000p center and FX500i bi-poles at the rear), which are, as some would say, warm sounding. No ear fatigue hear, other than my wife yelling to turn it down.

About the only adjustments I ever make are to the sub gain on the back of the SVS and once in awhile I fiddle with the sound settings depending on the material. I was watching an in studio Eric Clapton DVD the other day and was bouncing between the Dolby and 2 channel/pure direct settings to find the right sound, but that is about it.

What are you listening to and at what volume? Like was said, it could be your source material that is driving you nuts. Or it could be your bright speakers, which would drive me nuts.

Mike
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post #12 of 36 Old 07-20-2009, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I just now finished a run through an assorted compilation. Few turned out to be very blant with the high midrange and high freq trimmed and few with audio levels recorded at a higher level and some sounded great. Like glaufman said source material looks like the major culprit here and not barring the bright speakers that can be still tamed at a treble level of approx -4db. Overall my take on DT studios is that they are bright. Should have gone for Polk or something similar that is a bit more warm.

All controls reset and now crossed at 120hz ( to avoid the monitor jarring - looks like RX-661 is loosing steam at higher volumes ). Volume set at -14db - mute is at -80db.

Quote:


But it definitely pays to buy some relatively inexpensive equipment and pair it with free software and take a few scans to see how your room/system behaves. Only when you know this can you figure out where to go from there.

Can you tell me how to do this ? Is it using some SPL meter or something ?
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post #13 of 36 Old 07-20-2009, 07:33 PM
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Room EQ Wizard can be downloaded from Home Theater Shack... there's a great support group there to help you get it working... to do it right you'll need at least an RS SPL meter and a sound card to do bass region scans, for $75 or so you can also buy a full range mic to look full spectrum...

-Greg
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post #14 of 36 Old 07-20-2009, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info, appreciate it. I shall look at the forum and download a copy of it. Any idea where to get these full spectrum mike ? I hope this is also available at RS. Will check their online site.
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post #15 of 36 Old 07-21-2009, 07:05 AM
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Once you see the few they talk about (not necessarily the only ones you can use, but these offer good value) just run a search, they're sold all over (but not RS)... I use the ECM8000 from Behringer... I forgot to mention before it requires a "phantom" power supply, there are also suggestions on HTS for which of these offer good values... I use a small Behringer mixing board for this... HTS also provides generic mic calibration files for these... there's even a guy on there who will sell one with a custom measured claibration file... I don't think it's NIST traceable, but probably more reliable than the generic... I just use the generic however...

The RS SPL meter can be used as a measurement mic but above a certain freq it's unreliable... the exact freq is debated, but certainly not as high as 5kHz...

-Greg
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post #16 of 36 Old 07-21-2009, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, this is the first time I am doing this and please tell me if I am getting it right.

1. ECM8000 from Behringer ( Has good reviews everywhere with a complete frequency coverage - it requires phantom power supply )

2. Now is phantom power available from mixer ? Is the primary purpose of the mixture to adjust the gain at various frequencies or have the equalisers and gain set up using the midi interface and RE software ? Which model of mixer are you using ?

I am using Yamaha RX661 that has Audyssey auto set up. It uses a mic and runs the sweep signal. But all the time it gets the bass response very bad and I feel that the character of the sound is completely gone. If I go the above route of mic measurements and using a mixture I will have to reset all the receiver settings and use the ones set on the mixer ? The receiver has a 5 band equaliser and a parametric one that is configurable only through the auto set up.

Process :

1. Do the basic room treatment - first reflection points (absorbent) and a diffusor possibly.
2. Do the room measurement and look at the graphs to achieve a flat response first and then subsequently apply a house curve that fits my needs.

Now the decisions that I need to make is :

1. Which components to use for response measurement ( ECM8000 + phantom supply + mixer + y connectors )
2. How to apply the compensation. (Measurement + Yamaha) or (Measurement + Mixer + Yamaha )
3. A budget room acoustics treatment ( to some amount DIY)

Please let me know your thoughts on this.
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post #17 of 36 Old 07-22-2009, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdr77 View Post

Okay, this is the first time I am doing this and please tell me if I am getting it right.

1. ECM8000 from Behringer ( Has good reviews everywhere with a complete frequency coverage - it requires phantom power supply )

For the record, the ECM doesn't get rave reviews "everywhere." I'm very happy with it so far as are most of the people I know with it and have used it to help several a friend. BUT, there are those who believe piece to piece repeatability of it isn't precise enough to use with a generic calibration file. It is also susceptible to orientation errors due to the housing which can act similarly to a diffraction grating at higher frequencies. This should be nulled out by the calibration file, but it should be noted. If using for room response measurements, use it vertically, if looking at just one side of the room (i.e., what's coming out of my front speakers) it can be more accurate horizontally, IF you have a cal file for that orientation... Sorry... dont' mean to cloud the issues here, just want to make sure you understand what you're getting into... I haven't done any comparisons to "reference" mics (others have), so until I find it misbehaving significantly, it's great for my purposes...
Quote:
2. Now is phantom power available from mixer ? Is the primary purpose of the mixture to adjust the gain at various frequencies or have the equalisers and gain set up using the midi interface and RE software ? Which model of mixer are you using ?

Phantom power should be available from a variety of sources. I use a relatively inexpensive mixing board, specifically one that provides phantom power for a mic. Primary purpose of the mixer in MY setup is to provide phantom power. I use it only when taking measurements. It is not part of my system normally. It's a Behringer mixer, I think it's called the Eurorack, BE802, or something like that. I don't believe this one has a midi interface. I think there you're confusing it with another Behringer product called the Behringer Feedback Destroyter (BFD), which many people use as a PEQ box for equalizing down peaks caused by room modes. THAT has a midi interface (I think) that can download PEQ info directly from REW if your computer has an appropriate output. Whether or not eq'ing the sub is appropriate will depend on exactly what you see in the scans.
Quote:
I am using Yamaha RX661 that has Audyssey auto set up. It uses a mic and runs the sweep signal. But all the time it gets the bass response very bad and I feel that the character of the sound is completely gone. If I go the above route of mic measurements and using a mixture I will have to reset all the receiver settings and use the ones set on the mixer ? The receiver has a 5 band equaliser and a parametric one that is configurable only through the auto set up.

So far, I've assumed when you say "mixture" you mean "mixer" please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it MULTEQ audyessey? Before you spend the money on the equipment, why don't you post your settings (both the Audessey ones and the ones you've set before you ran Audessey)? Sometimes Audessey's abilities can be crippled by the user overlooking something before running it... such as setting main speakers to "large" instead of the much-more-often-correct "small"
Quote:
Process :

1. Do the basic room treatment - first reflection points (absorbent) and a diffusor possibly.
2. Do the room measurement and look at the graphs to achieve a flat response first and then subsequently apply a house curve that fits my needs.

While treating FRP is always a good idea, I might suggest that if you're going to run scans anyway, run some prior to doing any treatments. You may find there more important issues to attack first.

Quote:
Now the decisions that I need to make is :

1. Which components to use for response measurement ( ECM8000 + phantom supply + mixer + y connectors )

Strictly speaking, for just taking scans and looking at them, you don't need a phantom AND mixer... just a good phantom... I happen to use a mixer that has a good Phantom.
Quote:
2. How to apply the compensation. (Measurement + Yamaha) or (Measurement + Mixer + Yamaha )
3. A budget room acoustics treatment ( to some amount DIY)

Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Hope I've helped a little.

-Greg
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post #18 of 36 Old 07-22-2009, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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glaufman, First of all I would like to thank you for such a detailed response to my queries.

hometheatreshack is also proposing the same set up that you are using to use with the BFD. I am planning to get a separate phantom power source, saw a few of them at zzsounds.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHXENTX802

This is what hometheatreshack says at BFD config page:
Quote:


If you choose to use the ECM8000, you will also need a mic preamp with phantom power and a mic cable. The Behringer Xenyx 802 Mixer (Mic amp w/ phantom power) and a 15' Microphone Cable is needed.

Please see the list below to see if I am missing something.

1. ECM8000
2. Xenyx 802 Mixer

Just now finished a read at htshack and looks like Galaxy CM-140 is all that I need instead of the above combo of items 1&2.
Quote:


One solution is to purchase the Behringer ECM8000 mic and a phantom powered mic amp, total cost about $100. This does not eliminate the need for an SPL meter, another $45 minimum for the Radio Shack meter. To get a respectable setup you will be looking at about $145.

New list :
1. Galaxy CM-140 ( SPL meter )
2. A USB based sound card - Creative soundblaster 24 live
3. Required cables Y connectors etc for wiring the above
4. 3.5 mm Stereo Plug To Dual RCA Jack Adapter to connect the mono out of Galaxy to sound card left and right channel inputs - 2 nos
Item link at parts express

Content courtesy from Hometheatreshack

YPAO Automatic System Calibration is what is used in yamaha and its not audyssey. I was wrong in thinking that its Audyssey.

Right now I have removed couple of monitors and kept the receiver + dvd + monitors in guest bedroom and the set up there is completely manual. On reading the specs it looks like I have the option to configure the parametric equalizer manually. So would stick with this itself rather than going for BFD.

I will revert the set up today and run YPAO once again and shall post the settings. Thanks once again for all the help.

I wanted to write mixer and came out as mixture :-). Its all getting mixed up at some point :-)
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post #19 of 36 Old 07-22-2009, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdr77 View Post

glaufman, First of all I would like to thank you for such a detailed response to my queries.

You're welcome!
Quote:


hometheatreshack is also proposing the same set up that you are using

I should hope so, they got ME started!
Quote:


to use with the BFD.

Hmmm. I wouldn't go buying the BFD just yet until it's determined that you need something that does what it provides... you may yet find out you'd rather put the money into different equipment...
Quote:


I am planning to get a separate phantom power source, saw a few of them at zzsounds.
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHXENTX802

Yup... I think that's the one I have...
Quote:


This is what hometheatreshack says at BFD config page:

Mic cable isn't, necessarily, necessary... hear me out... First, unless you have your heart set on the BFD, think of this less being a means to setting the BFD up and more of an exploration into your room acoustics. The 802, if it's the one I'm thinking of, has the XLR connector such that your mic could plug in directly. Then you sit the mixer in the seating position and you're ready to go. No mic cable. It may not be at exactly the optimum height, but it's probably close enough, and it's what I've always done so far. I do plan on getting a cable and a separate mic stand, but for now...
Quote:


Please see the list below to see if I am missing something.

1. ECM8000
2. Xenyx 802 Mixer
3. 15' Microphone Cable
4. Galaxy CM-140 ( SPL meter ) or radioshack one ?
5. A USB based sound card - Creative soundblaster 24 live
6. Required cables Y connectors etc for wiring the above

Looks good to me, that's even the same sound card I use... one thing, what OS are you running on the computer? Search HTS for issues using the SB with that OS... As for the Galaxy vs the RS, I've never used the Galaxy, my buddy has an RS. Since it'll only be used to calibrate the SPL for the software, may not be a big issue. Things I like about the RS are: visible readout, line level output, settable A vs C weighting, settable slow/fast resposne, I think it even has a threaded insert for mounting on a tripod (don't quote me on this)... Does the Galaxy conform? Or beat it?
Quote:


YPAO Automatic System Calibration is what is used in yamaha and its not audyssey. I was wrong in thinking that its Audyssey.

Fair enough... I should've picked that up myself... regardless, auto correction systems can be easily fooled by tricky rooms or, more likely, users setting settings the system can't override the wrong way... before you spend money on equipment...
Quote:


I will revert the set up today and run YPAO once again and shall post the settings. Thanks once again for all the help.

It's not just about "reverting" the settings... specifically look for small/large settings... set it to "small"...

Of course, you CUOLD simply go with some Klipsch speakers, (I love mine) but you might find out you still have insane room issues...

-Greg
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post #20 of 36 Old 07-22-2009, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Galaxy CM-140 ( SPL meter ) has a better response very similar to that of a calibrated ECM8000 and it seems they are very consistent too in their characteristics. So I will be able to get both the SPL meter and Mic in an affordable package.

I am trying to find out whether RX-661 allows manual parameter settings. I will have to adjust the entire range of frequencies to get a flat response first rt ? If the feature is not available in RX-661 what would be my best option ? BFD or any budget full range parametric equalizers ? Or is it that only bass frequencies are equalized and rest of the higher frequencies are taken care of by absorbents and diffusors ?
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post #21 of 36 Old 07-22-2009, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdr77 View Post

Galaxy CM-140 ( SPL meter ) has a better response very similar to that of a calibrated ECM8000 and it seems they are very consistent too in their characteristics. So I will be able to get both the SPL meter and Mic in an affordable package.

If the Galaxy is repeatable and accurate full range, then you won't need the ECM or RS... assuming the galaxy has it's own readout so you can calibrate the SPL in REW... does it require phantom power?

Quote:


I am trying to find out whether RX-661 allows manual parameter settings. I will have to adjust the entire range of frequencies to get a flat response first rt ? If the feature is not available in RX-661 what would be my best option ? BFD or any budget full range parametric equalizers ? Or is it that only bass frequencies are equalized and rest of the higher frequencies are taken care of by absorbents and diffusors ?

I think you still may be getting ahead of yourself here... You want to double check all your settings... then you want to run some scans and have them analyzed. But to answer the question, yes, the most common problem with higher frequencies is ERP, and equalization does nothing for that. But similarly, you'd much rather treat bass problems with treatments when possible rather than equalizers. EQ should be used sparingly, and as the last step.

I have to think a little about how you should set up the AVR to run the scans, but my first impression says to start with scans, one with YPAO in effect, and one without. In both cases, try to get all other surround processing off, so you're in stereo mode with bass management.

Of course, first though, start from scratch with checking speaker presence, polarity, and size... and then rerunning YPAO.

-Greg
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post #22 of 36 Old 07-23-2009, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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If the Galaxy is repeatable and accurate full range, then you won't need the ECM or RS... assuming the galaxy has it's own readout so you can calibrate the SPL in REW... does it require phantom power?

No the galaxy doesnt require phantom power its giving out line level output. The guys at HTshack says that the output of the galaxy is similar to a calibrated ECM8000.

glaufman, there is a small development. I tried changing the source to flac as I got myself a creative soundblaster X-Fi 5.1 surround. Now the set up is that

winamp (for playing flac) + optical output (TOS link) to receiver.

Once the connection was done I tried running YPAO calibration. Tried playing some mp3 and each one had a totally different sound due to the poor encoding quality. Flacs as well as audio cds are sounding good. I tried to dig out the specs of my Jamo 200 sub and it says it can play from 36-150 Hz.

I tried a basic measurement with REW using the YPAO mic and optical out to the receiver. The guy at HTshack advised me to use the analog outputs only as REW works only with that.

I got to get Y connectors and the mic so that the measurements go fine. Shall post the response graph here. The reading that I got with a non-calibrated sound card and the set up I mentioned above is pasted below. This measurement was done before YPAO.

Not able to find out how to load the image ? What do I do upload somewhere else and post link here ?


LL
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post #23 of 36 Old 07-23-2009, 06:45 PM
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No the galaxy doesnt require phantom power its giving out line level output. The guys at HTshack says that the output of the galaxy is similar to a calibrated ECM8000.

Well, then that makes me start to wonder why I went with the ECM myself...
Quote:


glaufman, there is a small development. I tried changing the source to flac as I got myself a creative soundblaster X-Fi 5.1 surround. Now the set up is that winamp (for playing flac) + optical output (TOS link) to receiver.

Once the connection was done I tried running YPAO calibration. Tried playing some mp3 and each one had a totally different sound due to the poor encoding quality. Flacs as well as audio cds are sounding good.

Now we're getting somehwere... what'sthe bitrate on your mp3s? you do know they're lossy, yes?
Quote:


I tried to dig out the specs of my Jamo 200 sub and it says it can play from 36-150 Hz.

that kind of josh's with theREw pic you included below, but it's difficult to read the graph... when doing "bass only" scans, set the upper limit of the graph to 200Hz before taking the screenshot (you can find the icon "graph limits" in the top right corner of REW)... also, let's see a waterfall of that... load up the data, click the waterfall tab, click the buton "generate waterfall data"... You can probably paste the whole REW file and I can show you how to manipulate it to show whatyou need to read... Obviously it doens't show yet how the sub blends with your mains, but this is a good start... It doesn't look too bad so far, there appear to be a few "suckout" points...
Quote:


I tried a basic measurement with REW using the YPAO mic and optical out to the receiver. The guy at HTshack advised me to use the analog outputs only as REW works only with that.

Yeah, the trick is to generate a good calibration file for the soundcard... only way to do that is to loop back the line out to the line in... at least according to the HTS guys... I have an idea for how to calibrate for the spdif output, but I haven't tested it yet, so I'll keep it to myself for now...
Quote:


I got to get Y connectors and the mic so that the measurements go fine. Shall post the response graph here. The reading that I got with a non-calibrated sound card and the set up I mentioned above is pasted below. This measurement was done before YPAO.

Well, it's tough for me to stand by my previous statements if the soundcard wasn't calibrated prior to measurement... but for the sake of argument, run YPAO again, scan again, and post that...
Quote:


Not able to find out how to load the image ? What do I do upload somewhere else and post link here ?

I'm never quite sure myself... I have to figure it out again every time I do it... so I'll leave it to someone else to help you with that (or you can go read the FAQ)...
BTW, I still advise posting the settings YPAO gives you before spending more money... there's chance that it's mistakenly setting your mains to "large" and that's simply robbing your sub of the input signals it needs to produce its bass...

[/quote]

-Greg
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post #24 of 36 Old 07-24-2009, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, then that makes me start to wonder why I went with the ECM myself...

Now we're getting somehwere... what'sthe bitrate on your mp3s? you do know they're lossy, yes?

Some of them are 96kbps and some are 128kbps. I've started the process of converting all my cds to flacs playing through the soundblasterX-Fi. There is a night and day difference between both. So would rather stick to it and I will need to screen my mp3 collections for good rips.

Quote:


that kind of josh's with theREw pic you included below, but it's difficult to read the graph... when doing "bass only" scans, set the upper limit of the graph to 200Hz before taking the screenshot (you can find the icon "graph limits" in the top right corner of REW)... also, let's see a waterfall of that... load up the data, click the waterfall tab, click the buton "generate waterfall data"... You can probably paste the whole REW file and I can show you how to manipulate it to show whatyou need to read... Obviously it doens't show yet how the sub blends with your mains, but this is a good start... It doesn't look too bad so far, there appear to be a few "suckout" points...

I shall read more on this and post an output. Will find a better resolution copy of the last img too.
Quote:


Yeah, the trick is to generate a good calibration file for the soundcard... only way to do that is to loop back the line out to the line in... at least according to the HTS guys... I have an idea for how to calibrate for the spdif output, but I haven't tested it yet, so I'll keep it to myself for now...

Well, it's tough for me to stand by my previous statements if the soundcard wasn't calibrated prior to measurement... but for the sake of argument, run YPAO again, scan again, and post that...

Quote:


I'm never quite sure myself... I have to figure it out again every time I do it... so I'll leave it to someone else to help you with that (or you can go read the FAQ)...
BTW, I still advise posting the settings YPAO gives you before spending more money... there's chance that it's mistakenly setting your mains to "large" and that's simply robbing your sub of the input signals it needs to produce its bass...

I am reading the FAQs now. got to check the multi-quote feature too.
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post #25 of 36 Old 07-24-2009, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by hdr77 View Post

Some of them are 96kbps and some are 128kbps. I've started the process of converting all my cds to flacs playing through the soundblasterX-Fi. There is a night and day difference between both. So would rather stick to it and I will need to screen my mp3 collections for good rips.

That's what I figured, those bitrates are pretty much universally accepted as being below the level you need to achieve a good enough rip to not be able to hear it on a revealing (read: good) system... Most people I know say they can't hear a big difference at 196kbps and up... I prefer full, or lossless...
Quote:


I shall read more on this and post an output. Will find a better resolution copy of the last img too.

Despite what I said in my previous post, what I see there are more "dips" than true "suckout" points... not sure how audible they would be (yet)... thoeretically you might be in a range where the soundcard cal isn't quite as important, but better to do it right the first time than wonder and have to go back and check...
Definitely want to see the YPAO settings.

-Greg
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post #26 of 36 Old 07-24-2009, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by glaufman View Post

That's what I figured, those bitrates are pretty much universally accepted as being below the level you need to achieve a good enough rip to not be able to hear it on a revealing (read: good) system... Most people I know say they can't hear a big difference at 196kbps and up... I prefer full, or lossless...

Yes lossless is really good. I am really loving the flac encoded songs and I guess now that there are less mechanical parts as compared to that of budget dvd player the output flac signal from computers is more cleaner.

Quote:


Despite what I said in my previous post, what I see there are more "dips" than true "suckout" points... not sure how audible they would be (yet)... thoeretically you might be in a range where the sound card cal isn't quite as important, but better to do it right the first time than wonder and have to go back and check...
Definitely want to see the YPAO settings.

There is a development on this front. Today I got myself a RCA to stereo connector and started the sound card calibration. Know what, there is feedback from output to input. There is this feature in creative soundblaster sound console to disable monitor under mixer settings. Was trying to figure out where it is to find that I will need the latest driver and console. Updating now and once this is done with the right settings I would be able to do a proper measurements. This makes the previous measurement invalid.

The sound card calibration graph is looking like this now. Current settings of reciever is as follows.

1. Speaker Set
Front - Small
Center - None
Sur LR - None
Bassout - SWFR
Crossover - 90 hz
SWFR PHASE - reverse

Distance of speakers are all wrong at 5ft and 5.5ft for RL speakers and Subwoofer at 11 ft when all are within 6ft distance.

Is there anything else I should look for ? All the speaker polarity and connection is right. At present I am running a 2.1 set up.


LL
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post #27 of 36 Old 07-24-2009, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by hdr77 View Post

Yes lossless is really good. I am really loving the flac encoded songs and I guess now that there are less mechanical parts as compared to that of budget dvd player the output flac signal from computers is more cleaner.

even a budget dvd player should yield good sound quality if the recording is good quality (low bitrate mp3=no) if you're using the spdif outputs...
Quote:
There is a development on this front. Today I got myself a RCA to stereo connector and started the sound card calibration. Know what, there is feedback from output to input. There is this feature in creative soundblaster sound console to disable monitor under mixer settings. Was trying to figure out where it is to find that I will need the latest driver and console. Updating now and once this is done with the right settings I would be able to do a proper measurements. This makes the previous measurement invalid.
The sound card calibration graph is looking like this now.

yep, that's one reason we do the cal... that's definitely indicative of the soundcard/laptop monitoring itself and interfering... took me a while to get that sorted out on mine the second time around (i wiped my HD clean) even though it was ok the first time around...
Quote:
Current settings of reciever is as follows.

1. Speaker Set
Front - Small
Center - None
Sur LR - None
Bassout - SWFR
Crossover - 90 hz
SWFR PHASE - reverse

Distance of speakers are all wrong at 5ft and 5.5ft for RL speakers and Subwoofer at 11 ft when all are within 6ft distance.

Is there anything else I should look for ? All the speaker polarity and connection is right. At present I am running a 2.1 set up.

Are these settings before or after running YPAO? I'm assuming after since you're complaining about the distance settings. I wouldn't worry too much about the distances... it really translates to time delays, which YPAO is measuring, it's measurements are probably more accurate than manually setting the distances and making it calculate time delays. But the sub is interesting... you could try manually setting the sub distance, and alter/combine that with manually setting the sub phase (forward/reverse) to see if any of that makes a difference... You could also try setting the crossover to 100 and/or manually setting the speaker distances, but I don't think any of those will fix your problem...
BTW, where did you put the YPAO mic while you were running YPAO?

-Greg
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post #28 of 36 Old 07-24-2009, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Are these settings before or after running YPAO? I'm assuming after since you're complaining about the distance settings. I wouldn't worry too much about the distances... it really translates to time delays, which YPAO is measuring, it's measurements are probably more accurate than manually setting the distances and making it calculate time delays. But the sub is interesting... you could try manually setting the sub distance, and alter/combine that with manually setting the sub phase (forward/reverse) to see if any of that makes a difference... You could also try setting the crossover to 100 and/or manually setting the speaker distances, but I don't think any of those will fix your problem...
BTW, where did you put the YPAO mic while you were running YPAO?

Its after YPAO. I fixed the mic at ear level at listening position. Not on a tripod but kept on a chairs headrest. I am still fiddling with the audio driver update. The auto update went bad (creative is pathetic here in making a workable control software/driver) Tried downloading their new drivers and still the control software is saying it cannot recognize the sound card. Got to do a complete reinstall after downloading the new update installers. Its a real pain.

I'll try changing the sub settings to see if it makes any difference.
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Its after YPAO. I fixed the mic at ear level at listening position. Not on a tripod but kept on a chairs headrest. I am still fiddling with the audio driver update. The auto update went bad (creative is pathetic here in making a workable control software/driver) Tried downloading their new drivers and still the control software is saying it cannot recognize the sound card. Got to do a complete reinstall after downloading the new update installers. Its a real pain.

I'll try changing the sub settings to see if it makes any difference.

Yeah, I think I may have skipped that update.. not sure really...

How's the sound change as you move around the room? Where's the sub placed?

-Greg
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post #30 of 36 Old 07-24-2009, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I think I may have skipped that update.. not sure really...

How's the sound change as you move around the room? Where's the sub placed?

More or less the sound field is stable with better listening a bit far coz I play them a bit loud and after a while it gets uncomfortable. Sub is placed at a corner. Infact I am limited with the placement part with not much of space to play around.
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