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post #31 of 135 Old 08-22-2009, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mntmst View Post

Ha Ha!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General...erator_license

Ahh. That does sound a bit more intense than I first imagined. I understand the boys in blue can get pretty picky when one starts splattering all over other bands with any kind of real power. I've always figured it would be fun to hang out at a big healthy station for a while and try and pick up some tricks from a battle hardened old dog radio engineer re high fidelity radio transmission/reception.

Have you checked out that newer movie "The Boat that Rocked"? About a late sixties pirate radio station over by UK. Not much in the way of cool radio gear other than big antennae and huge tower, but there is some cool old military grade looking turntables in the DJ booths though. I thought it was fun to watch.
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post #32 of 135 Old 08-22-2009, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I feel bad for the OP.

lmao!


Im sure he has moved on (why wouldnt he after I have posted ) but they will keep on with irrelevant back in forth. It sounds like none of them even have full house audio/video

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post #33 of 135 Old 08-22-2009, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

lmao!


Im sure he has moved on (why wouldnt he after I have posted ) but they will keep on with irrelevant back in forth. It sounds like none of them even have full house audio/video

I have full house AV but mine is all networked. I don't have to run long audio or video cables. Using Mythtv and linux my entire HD video/music/picture collection can be accessed anywhere I have a wired or wireless connection. I use cat5/5e/6 cables for the the transfer of IP packets not analog signals.
I have over 10 computers in the house capable of 1080P output with 4 media, security and network servers with over 20TB or storage. http://mysite.verizon.net/res02dad/s...s/PA270042.jpg
Hey, irrelevant banter is at the heart any good meeting place.

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post #34 of 135 Old 08-22-2009, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugly1 View Post

Ahh. That does sound a bit more intense than I first imagined. I understand the boys in blue can get pretty picky when one starts splattering all over other bands with any kind of real power. I've always figured it would be fun to hang out at a big healthy station for a while and try and pick up some tricks from a battle hardened old dog radio engineer re high fidelity radio transmission/reception.

Have you checked out that newer movie "The Boat that Rocked"? About a late sixties pirate radio station over by UK. Not much in the way of cool radio gear other than big antennae and huge tower, but there is some cool old military grade looking turntables in the DJ booths though. I thought it was fun to watch.

I didn't do much public type broadcasting. The sites I managed were mainly military/government in far away places.

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post #35 of 135 Old 08-22-2009, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mntmst View Post

I have full house AV but mine is all networked. I don't have to run long audio or video cables. Using Mythtv and linux my entire HD video/music/picture collection can be accessed anywhere I have a wired or wireless connection. I use cat5/5e/6 cables for the the transfer of IP packets not analog signals.
I have over 10 computers in the house capable of 1080P output with 4 media, security and network servers with over 20TB or storage. http://mysite.verizon.net/res02dad/s...s/PA270042.jpg
Hey, irrelevant banter is at the heart any good meeting place.


Yes, that good old method of having PCs everywhere. Thought about it but decided to centralize and maximize my sources. Same movie in three rooms at once great for when family wants to lay down somewhere else but watch the same movie, XBox360, PS3 anywhere in the house is pretty cool, well the wireless connection fails at over 30 feet so the one back bedroom doesnt work but all other rooms are good for gaming. I can have one BD player and play any new BD in any room or all rooms. I maximized my $$$ over you and I can send multi streams because of my centralization. I also do not need any boxes in rooms

you have me beat with 20TB, I have 3 TB of DVDs (thats 500 movies!) and music....20TB is scary I do not have security history needs though.

as for the irrelevant banter....I did not get to almost 14000 posts by staying on point all the time! I guess Im the poster child for it

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post #36 of 135 Old 08-22-2009, 08:49 PM
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I feel we might as well benefit from a conversation if its gathered steam, even if its irrelevant to the op's problem. Thus to continue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugly1 View Post

There are benefits in differential noise rejection which can had by simply by using twisted pair (the on topic subject of discussion here)

I think the point of discrepancy is that i am unsure what you're talking about when speaking of differential noise rejection. When i speak of it i am speaking of differential signaling that can reject common-mode noise, because if noise is induced equally into the differential system, the difference is not really changed. However you say it is the topic of discussion, but the op's signal is an unbalanced, single ended, non-differential signal. So maybe i am just not understanding your terminology, that or perhaps i missed a post or two that turned the discussion into one of a different signal than the op's.
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post #37 of 135 Old 08-22-2009, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mntmst View Post

security and network servers with over 20TB or storage.

Holy crap! That's a lot! What kind of raid system are you using? Or are they all independent NAS's?
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post #38 of 135 Old 08-22-2009, 10:30 PM
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All that to watch "Plan 9 From Outer Space" and to play Pong?
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post #39 of 135 Old 08-23-2009, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jarrod1937 View Post

I think the point of discrepancy is that i am unsure what you're talking about when speaking of differential noise rejection.

Pulled from some random internet site since I can't seem to say anything lately without making mistakes but it happens to line up exactly with my definition too:

"Differential Mode Noise: Noise that is measured between two lines with respect to a common reference point excluding common-mode noise. The resulting measurement is the difference of the noise components of the two lines."

Quote:


However you say it is the topic of discussion, but the op's signal is an unbalanced, single ended, non-differential signal.

I actually missed where the OP mentioned what he's running but it doesn't matter. Both balanced and unbalanced circuitry will respond to differential noise and it will mix with single ended or differential signaling. It can be a problem for all electronic circuitry and signaling types. It just happens that balanced circuits and differential signaling each in and of themselves offer more, but still imperfect, immunity to it than single ended signaling and unbalanced circuitry each offer in and of themselves.

...AND twisted pair cabling is one tool which can be used as an also imperfect differential noise prevention measure.
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post #40 of 135 Old 08-23-2009, 08:07 AM
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Here is a more concise definition that i was able to find:
Quote:


Noise is classified into two types, differential mode noise and common mode noise.

Differential mode noise is conducted on the two power supply lines in opposite directions to each other, as shown in Fig.1(a).

Common mode noise is conducted on all lines in the same direction, as shown in Fig.1(b).

Which makes more sense why its called differential...

Edit: never mind, i was able to answer all of my questions with further searching. And now i think we're on the same page.
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post #41 of 135 Old 08-23-2009, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

All that to watch "Plan 9 From Outer Space" and to play Pong?

Did you hack my systems? I got both on my servers.

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post #42 of 135 Old 08-23-2009, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mntmst View Post

I didn't do much public type broadcasting. The sites I managed were mainly military/government in far away places.

Would you have to kill us if you told us?
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post #43 of 135 Old 08-23-2009, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jarrod1937 View Post

Holy crap! That's a lot! What kind of raid system are you using? Or are they all independent NAS's?

Sorry OT.

I have two levels of storage. I have a work-shed (wire Gbit network) detached from the house for backup of important docs and files. This has scsi raid 1 for the OS and scsi u360 raid 5 for backups. I use unix "rsync" to backup the critical data from other machines to this server. I then have a old HP 400/800 LTO4 tape drive to make archives. (left overs from a computer center upgrade at work)

The main media servers are JBOD because mythtv's future release (that I run) will have storage groups that auto combine single drives to one big logical media block. Any shows that I want to archive gets flagged and moved to a special folder that gets mirrored across systems and drives. About 1/3 of my storage is just for backups.

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post #44 of 135 Old 08-23-2009, 05:22 PM
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If I yank the plug out, then what?

BTW you have to be sure to get Glen or Glenda to play after Plan 9. The very best of Ed Wood.

I have 2- JVC BR-3500 VHS decks, 2 Umatic Sony 9600 recorders, 3 dual well Panasonic cassette recorders and a couple thousand cassettes too. Oh yea I have a DVD recorder.

I don't generate enough data to fill a 6o gb drive let alone a few TBs.

Ah the simple life.
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post #45 of 135 Old 08-23-2009, 07:17 PM
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Would you have to kill us if you told us?

Not anymore, most of the places I worked were closed when everything when to sats for primary data transmission. State side example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Grove,_West_Virginia

I've been in semiconductor wafer fabs for the last 20 years (Oregon mainly) working on high energy (3 MeV+) ion implanters.
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post #46 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 01:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod1937 View Post

Correct me if i'm wrong but the same article gives the impression that the twisting is only used to keep noise common-mode in order to be able to reject it in balanced lines (like the phones systems mentioned). This does not apply to the transmission of a line level signal like the op mentioned.
Though the above statement is only in response to the article for which you're citing, arnyk already gave some good reasons for using twisted pairs. To me it just feels like you're taking that quote out of context though.

p.s. thanks arnyk for giving a nice and clear explanation, always useful.

Of course it applies. That's the whole point, you utilize UTP along with BALUN adapters (BALanced to UNbalanced, and vice versa) in order to get the benefits of balanced transmission, hence the use of twisted pair for that purpose. Obviously if you don't use baluns and just physically adapt the cabling to UTP or the like, then that gets you nowhere and is a terrible idea.
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post #47 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 01:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ugly1 View Post

My understanding is:

There are benefits in differential noise rejection which can had by simply by using twisted pair ( the on topic subject of discussion here) as compared to using two random wires shaped into some big or small area loop antenna. There are also potential benefits to be had in rejecting differential noise by using balanced line circuitry as compared to using unbalanced circuitry. There is a difference between those concepts and the distinction is important in the context of the discussion here.

Stop separating these two things. A twisted pair is utterly useless unless it is being used over a balanced line. You can take two conductors and twist them together all you want for analog audio and it won't make a damn bit of difference unless the line is a balanced line, in that case it makes a huge difference.

Quote:


I don't believe there is a requirement or that article or any other states there is a requirement that balanced circuitry requires twisted pair cabling but the benefits of using the two together will be complementary, ie there is a double differential noise reduction whammy when used together.

No. Please stop confusing everything together and apart. Again, differential is a distinct subset of balanced transmission. A balanced line may or may not be differential.

There is not any kind of "double whammy." There is only one noise rejection principle at work here, and it is common mode noise rejection across the balanced line, and the pair twist aids in improving this noise rejection attribute. If you twist a pair on an unbalanced line, you've accomplished nothing and rejected no noise at all.

Quote:


Common mode noise is different, and twisted pair cabling does nothing to prevent it. Dealing with common mode noise gracefully is a commonly followed good practice since it can blow up gear but implementation may be different from techniques employed to deal with differential noise immunity. Both balanced and unbalanced circuitry may or may not contain circuit enhancements designed to offer better common mode noise circuit immunity, it depends on the whims of the circuit designer.

This is totally nonsensical.


Quote:


It does. Please see premise of wiki twisted pair site I quoted. It reduces loop antenna area as compared to other two wire runs and thus reduces recieved differential noise.



Actually arnyk's main point which seems to be "(1) Minimizes the area within the loop created by the wires." is merely echoing the sentiment I tried making in my original post: it reduces a type of noise audio circuitry is susceptible to which is caused by antenna effect. Admittedly as Chris Wiggles helped me see my wording had a flaw in that I said it was reducing common mode noise but if you read my response to Chris you'd see that I agree this was an error on my part. The real antenna effect addressed by twisted pairs is differential noise recieved via current loop antenna.



It certainly wasn't my intent and I hope this post helps clear that up.

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post #48 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Of course it applies. That's the whole point, you utilize UTP along with BALUN adapters (BALanced to UNbalanced, and vice versa) in order to get the benefits of balanced transmission, hence the use of twisted pair for that purpose. Obviously if you don't use baluns and just physically adapt the cabling to UTP or the like, then that gets you nowhere and is a terrible idea.

Ok, i didn't know there were adapters for changing from unbalanced to balanced. In that case then it is quite relevant even to the op.
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post #49 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 08:59 AM
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One word keeps popping up and when applied to the real world of long run balanced audio lines and noise injection/rejection,


TRANSFORMERS They work, they solve all kinds of problems that differential inputs to opamps cannot solve or frequently create.

I would estimate I have installed. or modified and maintained about 10 thousand systems of all sizes with cable runs into the thousands of feet on individual lines. For permanent installs like field runs and rack wiring I use a simple foil shielded STP Belden 8451. For all portable lines I use only Canare L4E6S.

We have also used STP premise wiring quite successfully to distribute audio between rooms and floors in office buildings.

The majority of hum problems I have had to deal with were caused by someone trying to connect balanced to unbalanced w/o using a transformer.

Many of the systems I have installed are used for major public activities that include broadcast and satt-link operations. This includes major security installations and government facilities.

I have found that when someone tries to build a better mousetrap in the audio industry that all too frequently the old tried and true transformer is the cure-all.

I have built a nice assortment of problem solvers that are kept in my tech kit that have been designed over the years to combat all types of analog interconnect issues. Most everyone uses a transformer plus some other goodies.

Remember folks, transformers are our friends. With the proper transformer and STP, you can do many wonderful things grasshopper.
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post #50 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

TRANSFORMERS

... more than meets the eye.
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post #51 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Stop separating these ...blah blah...
This is totally nonsensical.

No. Links have been provided which explain it satisfactorily. None of the links support your assertions.
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post #52 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod1937 View Post

Ok, i didn't know there were adapters for changing from unbalanced to balanced. In that case then it is quite relevant even to the op.

A BALUN is a transformer working at RF. It will do squat at audio frequencies, where you need, as Gizmologist states above, a specifically designed audio transformer.

Might be worth reading this for some of the less technical people here.
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an004.pdf
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post #53 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 11:48 AM
 
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A BALUN is a transformer working at RF.

No, a BaLun is a Balanced to Unbalanced (or vice versa) transformer. It can operate at audio frequencies as well as video and RF.
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post #54 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 12:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

One word keeps popping up and when applied to the real world of long run balanced audio lines and noise injection/rejection,


TRANSFORMERS They work, they solve all kinds of problems that differential inputs to opamps cannot solve or frequently create.

I would estimate I have installed. or modified and maintained about 10 thousand systems of all sizes with cable runs into the thousands of feet on individual lines. For permanent installs like field runs and rack wiring I use a simple foil shielded STP Belden 8451. For all portable lines I use only Canare L4E6S.

We have also used STP premise wiring quite successfully to distribute audio between rooms and floors in office buildings.

The majority of hum problems I have had to deal with were caused by someone trying to connect balanced to unbalanced w/o using a transformer.

Many of the systems I have installed are used for major public activities that include broadcast and satt-link operations. This includes major security installations and government facilities.

I have found that when someone tries to build a better mousetrap in the audio industry that all too frequently the old tried and true transformer is the cure-all.

I have built a nice assortment of problem solvers that are kept in my tech kit that have been designed over the years to combat all types of analog interconnect issues. Most everyone uses a transformer plus some other goodies.

Remember folks, transformers are our friends. With the proper transformer and STP, you can do many wonderful things grasshopper.

Right, and the other very happy benefit that using Baluns affords you is that it breaks ground, so no ground loops if that is an issue.
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post #55 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 12:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

A BALUN is a transformer working at RF. It will do squat at audio frequencies, where you need, as Gizmologist states above, a specifically designed audio transformer.

Might be worth reading this for some of the less technical people here.
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an004.pdf

Ridiculous. There are scores of audio transformers out there, and that's really all Baluns are at the end of the day. There are baluns designed for different bandwidths and different tasks (such as video baluns for instance, digital audio, etc). But there certainly are analog audio baluns of various types from various manufacturers. I've used scores of them.
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post #56 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 12:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugly1 View Post

No. Links have been provided which explain it satisfactorily. None of the links support your assertions.

I don't even know what it is you are disagreeing with.

I really only made two simple claims, that the benefits of twisting a pair of conductors is solely to ensure that induced noise is as close to equal on both conductors so it will cancel as common mode noise, and this only occurs on a balanced line. If the line is not balanced, twisting the pairs does nothing for you.

And the other is pointing out as before that the line may or may not be differential (the signals are symmetrically inverse), regardless of whether it is balanced. This is a common source of confusion in that people often assume that balanced=differential signaling when that isn't always the case.

I'm not sure what issue you find with either of these two fairly basic statements of fact?
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post #57 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Ridiculous. There are scores of audio transformers out there, and that's really all Baluns are at the end of the day. There are baluns designed for different bandwidths and different tasks (such as video baluns for instance, digital audio, etc). But there certainly are analog audio baluns of various types from various manufacturers. I've used scores of them.

I with you, I have boxes full off used Baluns for one test or another. Digital audio, analog audio. Baluns for Cat5e, Baluns for HDMI.....I have used them all.

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post #58 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 12:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I with you, I have boxes full off used Baluns for one test or another. Digital audio, analog audio. Baluns for Cat5e, Baluns for HDMI.....I have used them all.

Though the terminologically nitpicky among us would refer to HDMI "baluns" as media adapters, they're not just transformers, but the term gets used frequently because it's a box and it goes from one cabling/connector type to another.
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post #59 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Though the terminologically nitpicky among us would refer to HDMI "baluns" as media adapters, they're not just transformers, but the term gets used frequently because it's a box and it goes from one cabling/connector type to another.

Okay, Gefen called them HDMI "baluns" but I wont argue the nitpicky terms....Im just a buyer of products.

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post #60 of 135 Old 08-31-2009, 12:36 PM
 
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Right. Sometime I just call them baluns myself. But it's good to know in the back of your mind that isn't really what they are...
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