Who doesn't use Bass Management? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 04:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Unfortunately, there are very, very few subwoofers that can produce 20Hz and even a smaller number that can go below that.

Most definitely.

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post #32 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

From an engineering standpoint, I sure can't imagine why someone would waste bandwidth for 80Hz and below for the rears and center in a consumer system. There may be some advantage in a full size auditorium due to time delays. Maybe. Just makes no engineering sense for a digitally coded format and none whatsoever for how one would put a speaker physically large enough to produce deep bass as surrounds. I can just see it now, hanging a pair of 6 cu ft 16 inches for my rears in my living room. Right.......

There has been several HUGE threads on this topic in the past.

There are several members that believe full range speakers all around creates a better experience.

There are many, many waterfall plots that show lots of content below 80Hz in the surround channels and many feel that we are losing that content when we set our surrounds >= 80Hz.



JBLsounds I think was the member that posted many of them showing content in the surround channges.

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post #33 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Unfortunately, there are very, very few subwoofers that can produce 20Hz and even a smaller number that can go below that.

But its all relative, you are 100% correct if we look at the overall numbers of all sub owners BUT if we took a subsection like say all avs members then the percentage increases probably to 50-60%, if we took a smaller subsection like say the DIY forum then the precentage increases to almost 100%

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post #34 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 08:13 AM
 
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Dr Earl Geddes doesn't agree with any of this !

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post #35 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Dr Earl Geddes doesn't agree with any of this !

Regards,

Yep, you and I both where in that thread.

Of course even though I respect what Geddes has done with speaker and he has a PhD in acoustics (I think) I believe he is behind the curve on bass management and products like Audyssey in general.

He also does not care about anything below 25Hz, he posted that subjective opinion a long time ago. He doesnt care for movies.

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post #36 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 08:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

He also does not care about anything below 25Hz, he posted that subjective opinion a long time ago.

His 'full range' main speakers hit down to 50 Hz ! Batten down those hatches....

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post #37 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 08:57 AM
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all avs members then the percentage increases probably to 50-60%, if we took a smaller subsection like say the DIY forum then the precentage increases to almost 100%

In the case of all AVS members, highly doubtful. In the case of DIY'ers...again that number is doubtful (considering the number of disasters I've seen). None-the-less, I cannot see the point of debating pulled out of the hat statistics.

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post #38 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

In the case of all AVS members, highly doubtful. In the case of DIY'ers...again that number is doubtful (considering the number of disasters I've seen). None-the-less, I cannot see the point of debating pulled out of the hat statistics.

I guess my point was really the fact that when it comes to movies and it comes to AVS members almost all discussions revolve around sub 20Hz content and all the popular subs from Seaton's designs to SVS are all < 20Hz performers.

I do not know of a DIYer that has built a HT room sub that didnt have performance below 20Hz and even the JL subs measure below 20Hz (with more distortion, lower SPL).

Again, I agree that most people do not have < 20Hz performance but then again AVS members generally are not most people.

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post #39 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oOOBillO0o View Post

I think I found some good info here.

The most important research about speakers and subwoofers have been performed by Dr. Floyd Toole and his associates (Sean Olive, Allan Devantier, Todd Welti, etc.) at the National Research Council of Canada (NRC) and at Harman International. They did multiple studies in anechoic chambers and real rooms to study the behavior of low frequency waves. They also ran many simulation models. One of the most important things that they found that was quite contrary to the people who propose and promote full-range speakers all around the room. When all your speakers are running full-range in the room, you will experience a huge difference in the level of bass that is generated by each speaker. It is best to quote Dr. Toole from one of his scientific articles.

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...ndRoomsPt3.pdf

This article sounds very interesting. I would love tho read it, but your URL doesn't work.
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post #40 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

This article sounds very interesting. I would love tho read it, but your URL doesn't work.

Here is a working link to that paper:
Part Three: Getting the Bass Right

You may also want to check out this paper:
Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations

Worth bookmarking for future reference:
Harman International Whitepapers

Sanjay
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post #41 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 12:33 PM
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Let's then (Penngray) be clear on performance...that is a minimum performance level of 115dB at 20Hz. There are subs that will do that (and below 20Hz) from Danley, SVS, and others. Typical consumer brands won't come close. I would also suspect the vast majority of AVSmember (and lurkers) are not members 20Hz performance club.

As to home built. Yes, many have had success. As well, many have done such a poor job, it's not clear anything other than noise is be produced.

None the less, one must be very careful about what is below 20Hz on a sound track. In a very large number of cases, the existence of that content is not known to the sound engineers.

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post #42 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

None-the-less, I cannot see the point of debating pulled out of the hat statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

In a very large number of cases, the existence of that content is not known to the sound engineers.

And where did you pull that fact from?
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post #43 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 01:39 PM
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being there, doing that, fixing it. In other cases, making sure it could be there.

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post #44 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

being there, doing that, fixing it.

Ummm. Yeah. Ok.
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post #45 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 01:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Ummm. Yeah. Ok

Excellent rebuttal.

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post #46 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Excellent rebuttal.

Regards,

I didn't what to say in public where I thought he really pulled it from.
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post #47 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 02:03 PM
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Here's an example of "it's supposed to be there": Telarc (SACD-60646). Oh, darn, so was I.

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post #48 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Here's an example of "it's supposed to be there": Telarc (SACD-60648). Oh, darn, so was I.

Well, since I have no clue what "Telarc (SACD-60648)" is, I have no clue what point you are trying to make.
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post #49 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 02:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

I didn't what to say in public where I thought he really pulled it from.

Well that's one of the most incoherent sentences I've read to date. Just when I thought I saw it all.

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post #50 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 02:34 PM
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Well that's one of the most incoherent sentences I've read to date. Just when I thought I saw it all.

Regards,

Why am I not surprised that you do not understand?
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post #51 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 02:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Well, since I have no clue what "Telarc (SACD-60648)" is, I have no clue what point you are trying to make.

It's painfully obvious what point Dennis was making. Do a search on 'Telarc'. I'll give you a hint; it has to do with your little argument.

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post #52 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

It's painfully obvious what point Dennis was making. Do a search on 'Telarc'. I'll give you a hint; it has to do with your little argument.

Regards,

I did better than that. I searched the Telarc website for SACD-60648 using their search tool (by catalog number). Here are the results:

http://www.concordmusicgroup.com/search/?

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post #53 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Well, since I have no clue what "Telarc (SACD-60648)" is, I have no clue what point you are trying to make.

I have it sitting on my shelf: it's music by Aaron Copland (my favourite composer). The rest of Dennis' post is so cryptic that I can't tell if he's being sincere or sarcastic about whether the really low frequencies are "supposed to be there" (i.e., did the recording engineer know or not).

Sanjay
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post #54 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Here is a working link to that paper:
Part Three: Getting the Bass Right

You may also want to check out this paper:
Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations

Worth bookmarking for future reference:
Harman International Whitepapers

The Harman International White Papers should be mandatory reading for anyone who plans to post in threads dealing with subwoofers and bass management. Can a moderator put that control in place?

Please.

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post #55 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 04:05 PM
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Now that Bluesky has taken his obligatory pot shot, let's get back to bass management (I think this will be a long post).

Understand, at the start, we very rarely see "bass management" in use in large venues. It was developed specifically for use in the residential environment, or, let's say "small room acoustics". Low frequency modal issues in large rooms aren't the issue they are in smaller spaces.

In smaller rooms (whether you have two fronts, or three), one of the objectives is to create a wide and deep, 3-dimensional, if you will, sound stage. Problematic in residential spaces is it is very difficult to get any speaker sufficiently far away from any room boundary to not have an adverse impact from SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response). To achieve an excellent sound stage, speakers are moved, twisted, raised, and/or tilted until that sound stage is as good as it can be. To further craft the sound stage, various forms of acoustic treatments are also common. This width and depth of the sound stage affected by the mid to high frequency range ... not by low frequencies.

So now comes the low frequency response (in the seating locations) problem. Ignoring for a moment that most "full range" speakers are not, the challenge is to create smooth bass response in the seating location(s). In the low frequency domain, modal response is the killer. Modal response issues can be addressed by careful subwoofer placement (that crawling on the floor thing), the use of some number of subwoofers (that number being between 4 and 5000) ala the Toole, Olive, Welti, Devantier method, or Gerry Lemay's "virtual" subwoofer method. Another, very rarely used method is to deliberately create constructive and destructive interference between multiple subwoofers to create smooth bass response (not commonly used because it is tricky and very, very time consuming). None-the-less, modal interaction within the seating area is highly dependent upon subwoofer positioning (moving the seats is often not an option because that sound stage gets corrupted in the process).

In the end, it is more often than not found that the best positions for the main speakers to craft an excellent sound stage are exactly the wrong positions for low frequency drivers to provide a manageable low frequency response at the seating locations.

Effectively, bass management allows low frequency content to be removed from the L/C/R (and surround) speakers and be redirected to one, or more, subwoofers. Once physically divorced from the main speaker, the low frequency drivers can be moved to those positions which provide a more optimal response at the seating locations.

One of the more common arguments against bass management have included, "I can hear the sub (localize it) and the positional disconnect from the mains is annoying." The fact of the matter is, you cannot localize low frequency sources (say 80Hz and below since that is a common crossover point). It is not the low frequencies which are being localized. Subwoofers can easily create higher frequency artifacts of their efforts to create the low frequency sounds. This includes mechanical sounds, the cone slapping the air, and so forth. These sounds can be easily eliminated. A further cause of distress can be linked directly to poor integration of the sub(s) to the mains. This integration cannot be done with just an SPL meter. If one "hears" the subwoofer(s), the calibration and integration is poor at best. In a properly calibrated room, the fact the surround speaker's low frequency content has been relocated to multiple subs is not going to be detected by the listener.

Now there are risks which can be introduced into the listening environment once you have excellent low frequency performance to 20Hz or below. These risks go back to the recording and production chain. Let me give an example: A Grammy winning recording artist produced a track where the 35Hz content would take your head off. It was very loud and horribly distracting (on the bright side most car stereos and all iPods couldn't reproduce 35Hz on a good day). This poor mix occurred because the mix engineer was sitting very close to the peak of the 35Hz null of the mix room! [EDIT: peak of the null ... near where the null was almost at its deepest point). There are other examples such as hearing the train passing through the London Tube below the recording studio ... the playback monitoring system wasn't capable of reproducing that particular low frequency range. It was on the release, most never heard it, but those with capable systems did, and, correctly, gave it a poor review. On the other hand, the Telarc 1812 (re-released as an SACD #60646) did have very deliberate way below 20Hz content. The Telarc Holst Planets with Fredrick Fennell (re-released as SACD) does as well. (These were both recorded on our Soundstream system and originally released for vinyl.) In any event, once you get a system which can accurately reproduce below 20Hz content, be prepared for some surprises (or disappointments as the case may be).

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post #56 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 04:16 PM
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Well guys...sorry. I have the wrong Telarc catalog number. The original recording (Kunsel, Cinncinnati Pops) was made in 1977 and later remastered on SACD. The catalog number is 60646. My bad.

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post #57 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

In any event, once you get a system which can accurately reproduce below 20Hz content, be prepared for some surprises (or disappointments as the case may be).

When Bruce Thigpen demo'ed his 2 TRW installation at tzucc's house about 4 years ago, Bruce played several DVDs to showcase the capabilities of the TRWs. I seem to remember some unintended content in the 8-10Hz range in Finding Nemo. There were other DVDs as well with clearly unintended content. Maybe Mark Seaton (who was at tzucc's) can chime in.
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post #58 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 04:57 PM
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Yes, Ron. Unintended low frequency content is very prevalent...much more than many would expect. Sadly, there's no excuse for it either. We've had digital editing since the very late '70's ... they could simply wipe it out if they wanted to or at least analyze the recording and see it.

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post #59 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 04:58 PM
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Well, shoot, that's what I thought you meant, but the search made no sense.

I have that disc, and my two JBL S1S-EX subs can make life very unpleasant for those who don't like to be around discharging cannons. Yeah, that's right, 18Hz @ 93 dB (vol at -15) and steady, thanks to room treatments, careful placement (mid front, mid rear walls) and painstaking EQ by a professional.

Got the graphs to prove it, too. I'm a big believer in BM, I mean, bass management
LL

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post #60 of 102 Old 02-23-2010, 05:03 PM
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The 1812 has 6Hz content.

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