Trouble playing DTS-HD-MA from Blu-ray with a PS3 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 04-09-2010, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone. I am having an issue where I'm unable to get DTS sound playing from a Blu-ray disc.

The Blu-ray disc has a DTS-HD-MA 5.1 track on it, and my audio receiver only supports DTS 5.1. The receiver also only supports LPCM in the 2 channel mode. As a result, I do not want my PS3 to decode the DTS-HD-MA 5.1 and pass this on to the receiver as LPCM 5.1, since the receiver does not support this. I believe what I need then is for the PS3 to pass just the DTS core as a bitstream. This should enable the receiver to do the decoding, leaving me with plain old DTS 5.1, which is my goal.

My PS3 connects to the TV with HDMI, and the TV outputs the audio on an optical cable to the receiver. I was under the impression that due to bandwidth limitations of optical cable, only the DTS core would make it to the receiver (but in my setup this is desirable!). Yet it I hear no audio when I select DTS-HD-MA in the Blu-ray menu. It should also be noted that I have tried switching the PS3 between bitstream and LPCM; with bitstream I hear nothing, with LPCM I get downconversion to only 2 channels.

Do you have any idea what's wrong? If the PS3 is the best Blu-ray player, and DTS-HD-MA is in fact backwards compatible with DTS, there must be a way to get the DTS-HD-MA 5.1 track to play on my setup as DTS 5.1!

Thanks in advance for any help.
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post #2 of 27 Old 04-09-2010, 11:22 AM
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Not near enough info here.....

TV make / model?
Receiver make / model?
PS3 slim or phat?

There are no stupid questions. Stupid answers on the other hand....that's a whole other story...........
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post #3 of 27 Old 04-09-2010, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulbalegend View Post

Hello everyone. I am having an issue where I'm unable to get DTS sound playing from a Blu-ray disc.

The Blu-ray disc has a DTS-HD-MA 5.1 track on it, and my audio receiver only supports DTS 5.1. The receiver also only supports LPCM in the 2 channel mode. As a result, I do not want my PS3 to decode the DTS-HD-MA 5.1 and pass this on to the receiver as LPCM 5.1, since the receiver does not support this. I believe what I need then is for the PS3 to pass just the DTS core as a bitstream. This should enable the receiver to do the decoding, leaving me with plain old DTS 5.1, which is my goal.

My PS3 connects to the TV with HDMI, and the TV outputs the audio on an optical cable to the receiver. I was under the impression that due to bandwidth limitations of optical cable, only the DTS core would make it to the receiver (but in my setup this is desirable!). Yet it I hear no audio when I select DTS-HD-MA in the Blu-ray menu. It should also be noted that I have tried switching the PS3 between bitstream and LPCM; with bitstream I hear nothing, with LPCM I get downconversion to only 2 channels.

Do you have any idea what's wrong? If the PS3 is the best Blu-ray player, and DTS-HD-MA is in fact backwards compatible with DTS, there must be a way to get the DTS-HD-MA 5.1 track to play on my setup as DTS 5.1!

Thanks in advance for any help.

Do we have any idea what is wrong? Yeah. You have it connected wrong.

You are going to need to use your optical cable and connect it between your PS3 and your receiver. NOT between the TV and AVR.

Then set your PS3 for HDMI video out and optical audio out. Also make sure the PS3 is set for bitstream output.

Then select that dts MA track and I bet you will hear the dts "core". that is the basic 5.1, lossy dts.
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post #4 of 27 Old 04-09-2010, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DaBuzzard View Post

Not near enough info here.....

TV make / model?
Receiver make / model?
PS3 slim or phat?

TV: Sony Bravia KDL-46Z5100
Receiver: Sony DAV-HDX285
PS3: Slim, 120GB
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post #5 of 27 Old 04-09-2010, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Easyaspie View Post

Do we have any idea what is wrong? Yeah. You have it connected wrong.

You are going to need to use your optical cable and connect it between your PS3 and your receiver. NOT between the TV and AVR.

Easyaspie, thank you for the info. I'll definitely try that to see if it works. But I wouldn't say it is connected wrong. It is set up this way because it is much easier to have TV do the A/V switching. With the method you outlined (optical directly from PS3 to receiver), how would I get audio from other devices to the receiver, aside from manually making the change? Keep in mind this receiver has no video inputs and only 1 coax and 1 optical for digital audio ins. Perhaps I can use digital coax from TV to receiver for all other inputs--not sure if receiver will switch nicely as the digital in source changes...

So you think the TV is messing up the bitstream in conversion from HDMI audio to optical audio? Do you think it's possible to get DTS in the current set up? I'll change it if necessary to get DTS (i'm not settling for DD), but I'd rather not.

Thanks again.
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post #6 of 27 Old 04-09-2010, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulbalegend View Post

Easyaspie, thank you for the info. I'll definitely try that to see if it works. But I wouldn't say it is connected wrong. It is set up this way because it is much easier to have TV do the A/V switching. With the method you outlined (optical directly from PS3 to receiver), how would I get audio from other devices to the receiver, aside from manually making the change? Keep in mind this receiver has no video inputs and only 1 coax and 1 optical for digital audio ins. Perhaps I can use digital coax from TV to receiver for all other inputs--not sure if receiver will switch nicely as the digital in source changes...

So you think the TV is messing up the bitstream in conversion from HDMI audio to optical audio? Do you think it's possible to get DTS in the current set up? I'll change it if necessary to get DTS (i'm not settling for DD), but I'd rather not.

Thanks again.


If you do not send the audio signal from the PS3 to the receiver via a digital cable you will not get DD or DTS, exactly what easyaspie told you. There are no ifs ands or buts. If you connect your PS3 to the TV as you have it you will only get two channel output. I have a PS3 connected to a system in one of my bedrooms. I go HDMI out to the TV for video (as my receiver does not support HDMI) and optical out from the PS3 to the receiver and let it process audio for both dd and dts 5.1. The PS3 is set to output bitstream and it works flawlessly.

Perhaps it's time for a new receiver???
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post #7 of 27 Old 04-09-2010, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulbalegend View Post

So you think the TV is messing up the bitstream in conversion from HDMI audio to optical audio? Do you think it's possible to get DTS in the current set up? I'll change it if necessary to get DTS (i'm not settling for DD), but I'd rather not.

Thanks again.

Not to speak for Easyaspie, but I'm pretty sure the heart of the matter is that as part of the HDMI "handshake" the TV identifies itself as a stereo player (having only two speakers itself) and either "asks for" 2 channel audio or converts everything to 2 channel. (I understand that most TV's will pass DD out the optical if they have done the decoding directly from the broadcast signal - not from a cable box, for instance.)
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post #8 of 27 Old 04-09-2010, 02:18 PM
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while there are a very few exceptions, if you try to pass a DD5.1 or DTS 5.1 digital bitstream "through" a TV, it will downmix the signal to stereo on the optical "output" from the TV.

It is safe to say, ONLY the audio decoded by the ATSC tuner (over the air TV with an antenna) or the QAM tuner (digital cable decoding) will output DD5.1 through the TV's optical audio output connection, everything else will be stereo.

+1 "easyaspie's" comments
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post #9 of 27 Old 04-09-2010, 04:34 PM
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TVs are not designed to be audio switchers. If you want DTS and DD 5.1, you have to connect your devices' audio outputs to the AVR, not the TV. Then, get a remote like a Harmony. One button push powers everything on and does all of the switching, too.
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post #10 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by m_vanmeter View Post

while there are a very few exceptions, if you try to pass a DD5.1 or DTS 5.1 digital bitstream "through" a TV, it will downmix the signal to stereo on the optical "output" from the TV.

It is safe to say, ONLY the audio decoded by the ATSC tuner (over the air TV with an antenna) or the QAM tuner (digital cable decoding) will output DD5.1 through the TV's optical audio output connection, everything else will be stereo.

+1 "easyaspie's" comments

Plugging directly from PS3 to AVR worked. I did get the DTS-MA to play as lossy DTS on the AVR.

However, I don't agree that using the optical out of the TV will cause everything to be stereo. I often play video files off the PS3 that have DD5.1, and DTS5.1, with PS3 connected to TV with HDMI and TV to AVR with optical. I also get DD5.1 from HD channels with cable box connected to TV by HDMI and TV to AVR with optical. It is just the one case, when I'm trying to play DTS-MA, that the audio doesn't pass "through" the TV correctly.
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post #11 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

TVs are not designed to be audio switchers. If you want DTS and DD 5.1, you have to connect your devices' audio outputs to the AVR, not the TV. Then, get a remote like a Harmony. One button push powers everything on and does all of the switching, too.

Maybe most TVs aren't designed to be audio switchers, but apparently mine is, because both DTS and DD 5.1 pass thru it no problem. It succeeds at taking multichannel audio inputs via HDMI and outputing them optically. It is just this one case of DTS-MA that I am having trouble.
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post #12 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Not to speak for Easyaspie, but I'm pretty sure the heart of the matter is that as part of the HDMI "handshake" the TV identifies itself as a stereo player (having only two speakers itself) and either "asks for" 2 channel audio or converts everything to 2 channel. (I understand that most TV's will pass DD out the optical if they have done the decoding directly from the broadcast signal - not from a cable box, for instance.)

The TV does not ask for only 2 channels, at it is well aware of exactly which AVR it is connected to. This particular TV and AVR talk to eachother (AVR powers on and off with TV; TV volume controls AVR volume when AVR is on, etc.). DTS5.1 and DD5.1 sources make it thru to the AVR. Therefore I think it does "ask" for 5.1 channels, but I do agree it's likely that the TV is responsible for screwing up DTS-MA downconversion.
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post #13 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulbalegend View Post

The TV does not ask for only 2 channels, at it is well aware of exactly which AVR it is connected to. This particular TV and AVR talk to each other (AVR powers on and off with TV; TV volume controls AVR volume when AVR is on, etc.). DTS5.1 and DD5.1 sources make it thru to the AVR. Therefore I think it does "ask" for 5.1 channels, but I do agree it's likely that the TV is responsible for screwing up DTS-MA down conversion.

DTS-MA down conversion (really '2 channel extraction') to stereo LPCM takes place in the decoder (i.e., the player) when the tv's EDID shows it to be a "2 channel audio sink" during the HDMI handshake.

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post #14 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 11:43 AM
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What exactly is being sent to the TV? The whole DTS-MA codec or the DTS 5.1 core?

While a few TVs do pass along 5.1, I've never heard of one trying to downconvert hi-rez audio to the lossy DD and DTS codecs.

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post #15 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulbalegend View Post

Maybe most TVs aren't designed to be audio switchers, but apparently mine is, because both DTS and DD 5.1 pass thru it no problem. It succeeds at taking multichannel audio inputs via HDMI and outputing them optically. It is just this one case of DTS-MA that I am having trouble.

Perhaps you should speak with Sony Support. p9 of the manual for your TV says the Digital Audio Out is for connecting to "digital audio equipment that is PCM/Dolby Digital compatible". It makes no mention of DTS, which (a) makes sense since DTS is not used in TV broadcasts and (b) is consistent with what happens when you attempt to play a dts-MA track through your TV. But, you say regular DTS works fine through the set. Since that is not consistent with the manual, you'll probably need to explore this with the manufacturer to find out how the set really works. You may also have better luck posting in the owner's thread for your TV set.

Also, I'm curious about what happens when you play a disc with a regular DTS track. If the player bitstreams it to the TV, which is the only way the set could send it along as DTS to your AVR, can you listen to it on the TV speakers? The set can't decode DTS. Does the audio behavior change based on whether the AVR is turned on or off and whether you have Bravia Sync engaged on the TV and AVR? In other words, do you lose the ability to hear DTS sound on the TV speakers when you turn the AVR on?
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post #16 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

What exactly is being sent to the TV? The whole DTS-MA codec or the DTS 5.1 core?

Neither, it would appear.

I think the player handles the output format, not the TV. The HDMI handshake tells the player what to do. TVs don't have DTS decoders. So, when you play a DTS track for output to a TV over HDMI, the player does the decoding and downmixing to stereo. That happens even when the player is set to bitstream.
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post #17 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

...I'm curious about what happens when you play a disc with a regular DTS track.

That's the weird thing -- a disc with a regular DTS track works fine, and bitstream passes to AVR fine, because the DTS icon lights up, and I can tell it is 5.1 channels I'm hearing.

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If the player bitstreams it to the TV, which is the only way the set could send it along as DTS to your AVR, can you listen to it on the TV speakers? The set can't decode DTS. Does the audio behavior change based on whether the AVR is turned on or off and whether you have Bravia Sync engaged on the TV and AVR? In other words, do you lose the ability to hear DTS sound on the TV speakers when you turn the AVR on?

If DTS track is selected in a DVD, Bluray, or I'm watching a file encoded with a DTS track, it plays as DTS on AVR provided the AVR is powered on.

If I then were to turn the AVR off, the Bravia Sync would disable external speaker output, enable TV speakers, and fuzz would be heard, b/c the TV is unable to decode the DTS bitstream. If I turned the AVR back on while fuzz comes out of TV speakers, the TV would switch back to bitstream out to AVR and fuzz goes away on TV speakers, DTS comes back on AVR. Does this answer the question?

But it would appear when the AVR is powered, the TV knows to "pass the bitstream thru". This is why it doesn't make sense that the DTSMA doesn't make it to the AVR.
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post #18 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by paulbalegend View Post

If DTS track is selected in a DVD, Bluray, or I'm watching a file encoded with a DTS track, it plays as DTS on AVR provided the AVR is powered on.

I take this back--partially:

When I play a DVD in PS3 with a regular DTS track, I get no audio. But I do get DTS audio passed thru and playing on AVR when I am playing a DTS-having video file, such as a VOB or M2TS file that was muxed from an MKV.

Also DD5.1 makes it thru the TV to the AVR (TV doing HDMI-->optical conversion) when I'm watching HD channels broadcasting DD5.1 with the cable box.

It is interesting, and strange, that DTS makes it to the AVR with a video file but not a DVD or BD. What could be different about how the PS3 outputs audio playing (a) from a file and (b) from a DVD/BD?
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post #19 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulbalegend View Post

If DTS track is selected in a DVD, Bluray, or I'm watching a file encoded with a DTS track, it plays as DTS on AVR provided the AVR is powered on.

What happens if you never turn the AVR on? Do you get a PCM output to the TV from the PS3 and sound from the TV speakers?

Quote:
But it would appear when the AVR is powered, the TV knows to "pass the bitstream thru". This is why it doesn't make sense that the DTSMA doesn't make it to the AVR.

From what you describe, it seems like a handshake problem. Players do what they are told to do in the HDMI handshake. It looks like the TV is not instructing the player to output DTS instead of dts-MA. Nor is it telling the player to decode, downmix, and output PCM. So, the player is probably sending dts-MA, which can't be fed to your AVR over optical. But, again, this is something you should probably discuss with Sony.

EDIT: In light of your most recent post, which appeared while I was writing this response to the previous one, what happens when you play a TrueHD track on your PS3? Does DD 5.1 get sent to your AVR?
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post #20 of 27 Old 04-10-2010, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

What happens if you never turn the AVR on? Do you get a PCM output to the TV from the PS3 and sound from the TV speakers?

If I never turn the AVR on, I could get either fuzz if I'm watching a file with DTS, or, 2-ch LPCM if i set the PS3 to output this.


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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

...what happens when you play a TrueHD track on your PS3? Does DD 5.1 get sent to your AVR?

I don't have anything with TrueHD to try


I know very little about HDMI. Does this "handshake" have to happen even if the audio is passed through?
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post #21 of 27 Old 04-11-2010, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by paulbalegend View Post

If I never turn the AVR on, I could get either fuzz if I'm watching a file with DTS, or, 2-ch LPCM if i set the PS3 to output this.

That's surprising. The HDMI handshake with a TV generally tells a player to output stereo PCM regardless of the output setting the user has configured on the player. That makes sure there's audio that the TV can handle through its speakers.

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I know very little about HDMI. Does this "handshake" have to happen even if the audio is passed through?

Yes. The main purpose of HDMI is copy protection. The handshake tells the player that the attached device is not a recorder, which helps prevent piracy of high definition media. So, the handshake always happens. Beyond that, the handshake negotiates the types of audio and video connections that both devices can handle. That doesn't appear to happening correctly in your set up.

Despite your initial belief that you can use your TV as an audio switcher, it looks like you will need to do as others have recommended and run audio from the PS3 directly to your receiver over optical.
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post #22 of 27 Old 04-11-2010, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Despite your initial belief that you can use your TV as an audio switcher, it looks like you will need to do as others have recommended and run audio from the PS3 directly to your receiver over optical.

Yeah, it looks like that's what I'll have to do. I'll just switch it manually when I want to watch a BD/DVD with DTS. Too bad, since TV audio switch works fine for everything but this.

I still think there may be some way to get it working, though. As I said in a previous post, I don't think the TV is responsible for this problem. DTS audio makes it to the AVR, thru the TV, from the PS3 when I'm watching a video file on the PS3, but not during BD/DVD playback. Something must be different about how it's outputting the data under these two conditions.
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post #23 of 27 Old 04-11-2010, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by paulbalegend View Post

Yeah, it looks like that's what I'll have to do. I'll just switch it manually when I want to watch a BD/DVD with DTS. Too bad, since TV audio switch works fine for everything but this.

I still think there may be some way to get it working, though. As I said in a previous post, I don't think the TV is responsible for this problem. DTS audio makes it to the AVR, thru the TV, from the PS3 when I'm watching a video file on the PS3, but not during BD/DVD playback. Something must be different about how it's outputting the data under these two conditions.

If you figure something out to make that work with BD or DVD playback, please post how you did it. No one at AVS or any other forum I read is able to feed DTS through a TV to a receiver. There would be considerable interest in such a feature. I'm also curious about what happens with TrueHD tracks. Does the HDMI handshake tell the PS3 to send DD 5.1 instead of TrueHD?
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post #24 of 27 Old 04-11-2010, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

If you figure something out to make that work with BD or DVD playback, please post how you did it. No one at AVS or any other forum I read is able to feed DTS through a TV to a receiver. There would be considerable interest in such a feature. I'm also curious about what happens with TrueHD tracks. Does the HDMI handshake tell the PS3 to send DD 5.1 instead of TrueHD?

I'm contacting Sony, but I'm not too hopeful. I'll definitely post if I ever find a solution. Thanks for your insight regarding the issue.
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post #25 of 27 Old 04-12-2010, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by paulbalegend View Post

Yeah, it looks like that's what I'll have to do. I'll just switch it manually when I want to watch a BD/DVD with DTS. Too bad, since TV audio switch works fine for everything but this.

I still think there may be some way to get it working, though. As I said in a previous post, I don't think the TV is responsible for this problem. DTS audio makes it to the AVR, thru the TV, from the PS3 when I'm watching a video file on the PS3, but not during BD/DVD playback. Something must be different about how it's outputting the data under these two conditions.

Are you absolutely sure that you have the one TV in the world that outputs DTS? Even more strange is that it does it from a video file but not a disc.

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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

If you figure something out to make that work with BD or DVD playback, please post how you did it. No one at AVS or any other forum I read is able to feed DTS through a TV to a receiver. There would be considerable interest in such a feature. I'm also curious about what happens with TrueHD tracks. Does the HDMI handshake tell the PS3 to send DD 5.1 instead of TrueHD?


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post #26 of 27 Old 04-12-2010, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaspie View Post

Are you absolutely sure that you have the one TV in the world that outputs DTS? Even more strange is that it does it from a video file but not a disc.

Yes, I am absolutely sure that this TV outputs DTS thru optical port if the source is the PS3 playing a vid file.

Yes, i am confused by this too. The TV manual claims this port is for outputing LPCM or DD, but makes no mention of DTS. But by God, it works in this one scenario.

And as I expected, Sony support was of no use. I guess until I find a solution, I'll just have to rip any DTS-having DVDs/BDs I buy and play them as video files!
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post #27 of 27 Old 04-12-2010, 11:01 AM
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It probably won't mention DTS because DTS is not used for any broadcast television content. They really don't intend for audio content to go in and out of a TV, even though yours might be able to do so. The Dolby Digital mentions are usually for the TV broadcasts received by the digital tuner, which does use DD. DTS is pretty much the realm of BD/DVD, and rips of those. Maybe some dedicated downloaded content, too, but don't quote me on it.

That being said, if it does pass along Dolby Digital bitstreams, I don't see anything preventing it from passing along the DTS 5.1 bitstream as well, if all the TV does is send the data along its merry way. I don't know if the differing bit rate would come into play.

I do think there is something on the player that is the culprit. Or a handshake issue (those tend to do all sorts of annoying things to a system.)

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