Multiple Subwoofers EQ DSP Help... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Either I don't know what to look for (probably the case) or there isn't a simple explanation of this anywhere on the entire internet (unlikely)

Say I want 3 or more subs in a room (5000?), I've got an AVR/Processor (Denon 3808A). It has one sub-out.

I understand I need some sort of EQ for this?

Could someone please explain what bits of gear I need and how it all plugs together.

Also if I could get some recommendations for gear that would be useful (budget, mid range and ultra high).

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post #2 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 03:35 AM
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All you "need" is 3x RCA cables, and daisy chain your subs together.

Now if you want to tweak each subs performance, then you'll want type of dsp but this depends on what type of adjustments you want to make. The easiest solution would be to buy subs with a built in dsp with the features you want.

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post #3 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 04:56 AM
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post #4 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 05:56 AM
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Elill:

What kind of gear do you have to measure room RTA, SPL, FFT etc?

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post #5 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Dennis, nothing as yet - well nothing that isn't room eq and a cheap mic, just want to make sure I provision for everything pre/during build and not finish the room and go "gee I wish I had done that"

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post #6 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 07:58 AM
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I run four 15's. The amps have a parallel out to daisy chain amps together. The only EQ is a variable LT ( the subs are sealed ). I use Audyssey to smooth out any problems, Does the 3808A have Audyssey ?

The nice thing about Audyssey is that it looks for the knee of the subs rolloff and tweaks down that low. My LT gets me down to about 8hz. I measured it with Truerta and sure enough flat down to 10hz and the F3 is about 7or8hz.

Plus it will EQ all your speakers too !!!

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post #7 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 08:39 AM
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I would focus on room treatment and proper placment before electronic correction, but this product is a good design for multiple subwoofer EQ http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products...=us&Region=USA. I would manually adjust the sound and not use Audyssey if it was my system.
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post #8 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 03:16 PM
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I use Audyssey all the way after trying the Anti Mode 8033, SMS-1, and some treatments (they can be more expensive than electronic EQ units). I use Audyssey Pro for the speakers and Audyssey Sub EQ for two subs (Conquest and MFW-15 together). The Audyssey combo got me the SQ that I was looking for.

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post #9 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 05:17 PM
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1. proper placement
2. proper planning and acoustic treatments
3. no Audyssey
4. you need a good mic (better, four mics), and the ability to individually set levels, PEQ, and, only as a last resort, individual phase control (always, always, always start with all subs in the same phase! You need to turn on each sub individually, set levels, then reset with all subs running then start the marathon with your QSC DSP322.

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post #10 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like I'm going to need to enlist the help of a pro on this front.....QSC is not an option at A$7500 each.....unfortunately, bah its all too complicated

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post #11 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

1. proper placement
2. proper planning and acoustic treatments
3. no Audyssey
4. you need a good mic (better, four mics), and the ability to individually set levels, PEQ, and, only as a last resort, individual phase control (always, always, always start with all subs in the same phase! You need to turn on each sub individually, set levels, then reset with all subs running then start the marathon with your QSC DSP322.


All you guys that do Home Theaters really hate Audyssey and other room EQ programs. Electronic room EQ is getting better and better (like Audyssey Pro and Audyssey Sub EQ) so there is really no need for the little guy on a budget to hire you. This cuts into your livelyhood and the guy with a bedroom HT gets more bang for the buck.

Bill
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post #12 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

All you guys that do Home Theaters really hate Audyssey and other room EQ programs. Electronic room EQ is getting better and better (like Audyssey Pro and Audyssey Sub EQ) so there is really no need for the little guy on a budget to hire you. This cuts into your livelyhood and the guy with a bedroom HT gets more bang for the buck.

Bill

I have to agree. I've been a tweakaholic for years and really gave it up once I saw, and heard the results of Audyssey. I'm sure you guys can shoot small holes in the results that Audyssey provides, but for now Bill hit the nail on the head, on a small budget Audyssey does it cheaper and better than I could do, unless you guys are offering Pro bono system calibration, where I would then say "Hell to Audyssey" !!!!!!
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post #13 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I wouldnt say I'm building a "bedroom" HT, well it might be buy your standards, but its costing the same as a pretty darn good family car (they're not cheap here), so I want to make sure my investment is going to work -

If that means throwing a couple of grand at someone to calibrate things so be it. I just want to make sure I've got cables in place for every possible scenario and get an idea as to what equipment might be needed and cost.

So getting a little of track here, with the exception of a daisy chain, how else are multiple subs wired and controled?

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post #14 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

I wouldnt say I'm building a "bedroom" HT, well it might be buy your standards, but its costing the same as a pretty darn good family car (they're not cheap here), so I want to make sure my investment is going to work -

If that means throwing a couple of grand at someone to calibrate things so be it. I just want to make sure I've got cables in place for every possible scenario and get an idea as to what equipment might be needed and cost.

So getting a little of track here, with the exception of a daisy chain, how else are multiple subs wired and controled?

Nice room and setup. You can use "Y" splitters off the back of the LFE on the receiver. Your Denon does use Audyssey and I assume that you can have Audyssey Pro installed by an installer ($500 including software key cost of $150) on it. That will give you a good sub EQ with the Pro. To go further, if you can not have Pro installed, then go with Audyssey Sub EQ ($799) and you will be able to do 2 subs or 4 in multipules of 2. I did Audyssey Pro all the way and bought my own intaller kit for $550 so it all cost me $1500 to get the SQ that I was after. Or, go cheaper with an SMS-1 (can do 2 or more subs), Anti Mode 8033 (can do 2 or more subs and is fully automatic) or the cheaper version of the Audyssey Sub EQ, SVS EQ1 for $700 or so. Bite the bullet and get the best as far as Audyssey or go cheaper, the SQ that you want is up to you. I'm sure that others will chime in and sift through the info and make a choice, cost vs quality sound.

Good luck, Bill
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post #15 of 33 Old 04-10-2010, 09:27 PM
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You can go cheaper with this mic

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=390-801

download the free REW from here

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ease-read.html


Use a PC, measuring your room and find a used DCX2496 for under $400. It has all you need and more.

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post #16 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 06:36 AM
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For auto-EQing multiple subs, a single-sub system like Audyssey is not optimal. Ideally, subs should have separate equalizers. EQ one sub, then leave those settings. EQ the second sub, with the first sub playing with its fixed EQ settings. Leave those second settings on the second sub. EQ the third sub, with the first two subs playing with their fixed EQ settings.

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post #17 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 07:09 AM
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Correct and that is why something like the DCX is perfect. It has the ability to control up to 6 subwoofers. along with phase, delay and sub sonic filter capabilities.

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post #18 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Montlick View Post

For auto-EQing multiple subs, a single-sub system like Audyssey is not optimal. Ideally, subs should have separate equalizers. EQ one sub, then leave those settings. EQ the second sub, with the first sub playing with its fixed EQ settings. Leave those second settings on the second sub. EQ the third sub, with the first two subs playing with their fixed EQ settings.

- Terry

Why would separate EQ's for each subwoofer be "ideal"? Since you only *hear* the combined result of all the subwoofers, why wouldn't a single EQ curve applied to the combined result not be as good, (or better than), separate EQ's curves for each sub?

For example, I am currently using Audyssey MultEQ XT to EQ my system, (3 Seaton Submersives placed randomly and at unequal distances to the LP.) Here is the result:



That is a 3-position measurement, averaged across the 3 primary LP's. How could this be improved upon by using separate EQ's for each subwoofer?

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post #19 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Why would separate EQ's for each subwoofer be "ideal"? Since you only *hear* the combined result of all the subwoofers, why wouldn't a single EQ curve applied to the combined result not be as good, (or better than), separate EQ's curves for each sub?

Subs have phase interactions. You can get better correction if these are taken into consideration. This cannot be done with one setting for all subs.

In your case, you got lucky!

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post #20 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Montlick View Post

Subs have phase interactions. You can get better correction if these are taken into consideration. This cannot be done with one setting for all subs.

In your case, you got lucky!

I don't think it was luck. I spent an enormous amount of time and effort to get that response. Here's what I started with, (this is with all 3 subs lined up in the front of the room):



Here's what the response looks like with the subs in their current positions, but without Audyssey MultEQ XT:



To make it easy to see the progression, I'll re-post the response with Audyssey MultEQ XT:



You and Dennis and umr can poo-pooh Audyssey all you want. I've had nothing but excellent results... and it's certainly not just *luck*.

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post #21 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 08:23 AM
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You and Dennis and umr can poo-pooh Audyssey all you want. I've had nothing but excellent results... and it's certainly not just *luck*.


and Geddes

btw, craig can you do phase measurements with that software? Does phase really matter that low? couild you also tell me what the resolution is on your measurements? 1/6th octave?

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post #22 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Montlick View Post

Subs have phase interactions. You can get better correction if these are taken into consideration. This cannot be done with one setting for all subs.

In your case, you got lucky!

Haven’t done this myself, but I know people who painstakingly EQd each separate sub, only to find that response was a mess when a measurement with all of them was taken. Since the combined output of all subs is essentially heard as a single source, there’s no reason why equalizing them in the same manner won’t work. So maybe Craig didn't just get lucky.

Regards,
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post #23 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You and Dennis and umr can poo-pooh Audyssey all you want. I've had nothing but excellent results... and it's certainly not just *luck*.

Incorrect interpretation. I do not "poo-pooh Audyssey." It is an excellent device when used within its limitations.

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post #24 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

and Geddes

btw, craig can you do phase measurements with that software? Does phase really matter that low? couild you also tell me what the resolution is on your measurements? 1/6th octave?

The resolution is 1/6th octave. The software doesn't do phase measurements per se. It does some time domain measurements. The small chart in the upper right corner of each graph is a 2D frequency/time/level chart. You can see the improvement in the time domain provided by Audyssey. The software also does 3D waterfall charts which I did, but did not save.

http://www.xtz.se/uk/products/mearur.../room-analyzer

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post #25 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

1. proper placement
2. proper planning and acoustic treatments
3. no Audyssey
4. you need a good mic (better, four mics), and the ability to individually set levels, PEQ, and, only as a last resort, individual phase control (always, always, always start with all subs in the same phase! You need to turn on each sub individually, set levels, then reset with all subs running then start the marathon with your QSC DSP322.

Dennis just set the GOLD STANDARD for speaker setup.

If you want to take a short cut or don't have the money for the equipment there are some easier, less expensive, less time consuming alternatives . . . . and less effective.
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Dennis just set the GOLD STANDARD for speaker setup.

If you want to take a short cut or don't have the money for the equipment there are some easier, less expensive, less time consuming alternatives . . . . and less effective.


The reality is that even here on AVS I would estimate that at least 70% of us don't have dedicated rooms for home theater. That pretty much eliminates the ability to put speakers and/or room treatments wherever we want (i.e. in all the ideal locations). If you can't use the best speaker (or sub) placement and can't have all the first reflection absorption, diffusion and low frequency absorbers that are needed what are you left with?

This argument of what's better Audyssey (or other room correction) vs. custom calibration too often turns into an apple and oranges fight. Without question a room designed, built and calibrated for home theater is better. The argument should always be about 'under the circumstances'.

My room is well over 8000 cu ft open to the entire downstairs of my house, and while I've done some aesthetic wall panels and a floor to ceiling bass trap of OC705 I'm limited in my subwoofer placement. Audyssey Pro has done a tremendous job in helping correct problems in my room that couldn't otherwise be addressed and still be functional as a family room. By this rationale I would argue that Audyssey is MORE effective than spending thousands more on a custom calibration.

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post #27 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 02:04 PM
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My room is over 5000 cu ft with opening to other parts of the house. Audyssey Pro and Audyssey Sub EQ has done more for my living room HT than MCACC, Anti Mode 8033, SMS-1, by themselves or in any combination. Audyssey does it all better without 1000's spent on room corrections or some designer/installer coming in and tweaking it all for me. The 1500 that I have spent on Audyssey was a good investment and I got the SQ that I was after. Click on http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...p?userid=76775 and see how much area I have to fill.

Bill
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post #28 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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This has been most useful - thanks especially to Terry and penngray.

I didn't really want this thread to get into an Audyssey v the world argument.

Just wanted to know how to hook up multiple subs and run them - in a dedicated room. So I'll be going down the path recommended by Dennis/Terry/Penngray, just with a cheaper EQ. I'll need a couple of DIY subs, but that shouldn't be an issue.

I run Audyssey in our living room and it does a great job......FWIW

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post #29 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 07:32 PM
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Looks like I'm going to need to enlist the help of a pro on this front.....QSC is not an option at A$7500 each.....unfortunately, bah its all too complicated

If the Basis/Rave DSPs are out of reach down under, see what your local pricing is on QSC DSP4 you'll need three. [Sub out to DSP4 number one, split into two channels. Each of those outs to DSP4 number two and number three. One of the final DSP4's will have two subs and the other just one sub with a spare port for sub number 4 in the future.]

In the US they are in the area of $350 to $400 each.

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post #30 of 33 Old 04-11-2010, 07:36 PM
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Incorrect interpretation. I do not "poo-pooh Audyssey." It is an excellent device when used within its limitations.

Don't use a Chevy Nova to pull a 100' yacht on a trailer.

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