The "Official" xtz Room Analyzer Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 447 Old 11-24-2012, 03:15 PM
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Yamaha RX-Z9
Energy Veritas 2.3i (floorstanders)

Speakers = set to small
Crossover = 80hz (currently)
Subs = set to stereo

Subs = connected via RCA (L&R) sub out of Yamaha

Using the sub distance setting in the Yamaha

Thanks again
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post #272 of 447 Old 11-25-2012, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

Yamaha RX-Z9
Energy Veritas 2.3i (floorstanders)
Speakers = set to small
Crossover = 80hz (currently)
Subs = set to stereo
Subs = connected via RCA (L&R) sub out of Yamaha
Using the sub distance setting in the Yamaha
Thanks again
OK, there's the misunderstanding.... The RX-Z9 has dual subwoofer outputs and they can be set up as "Monaural", "Front/Rear" or "Left/Right". I can find no explanation of what the processing does for the different settings, but they are available. I don't know if the "Stereo" setting retains separate signals for the L & R subs, or if it runs them together. Either way, the way you have them placed, there is little benefit to "stereo" subs, so I would run them as "monaural" subs.

You can also set the Distance for each sub separately, but using the monaural setting simplifies things because you set the the Distance of both subs at the same time. If they are equidistant to the LP, it shouldn't matter..

Here's what I would do:

Reset the processors in the DD subs. This will erase all the EQ settings and set all the other settings back to baseline.

Connect one sub to the RX-Z9 and set the Z9 to "Monaural" subwoofer. Connect the 2nd sub to the first one via the "daisy-chain" method. This will gain-match the subs and allow them to be EQ'd as a single sub, which is how you "hear" them. Place them so they are equidistant to the LP.

Run YPAO.

When YPAO is done, set the crossovers for your speakers to 80 Hz for your mains and to whatever is optimal for your surrounds, (you don't list surrounds, so I don't know what they are.)

Measure the response with XTZ, being especially aware of the response at 80 Hz. Adjust the subwoofer Distance setting to optimize the response around the 80 Hz crossover point.

Run the manual EQ in the "Master" DD sub. This will EQ the combined response of both subs. You can try the EQ recommendations that XTZ suggests, but when I had an SMS-1, I didn't find them too useful. I found it easier to just do the EQ using the SMS-1 software.

This should provide smooth, flat response all the way up through the crossover.

Craig

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post #273 of 447 Old 11-26-2012, 12:15 AM
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Thanks Craig

Where should true stereo subs be placed?

Thank you
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post #274 of 447 Old 11-26-2012, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

Thanks Craig
Where should true stereo subs be placed?
Thank you

If the goal of "true stereo subs" is to realize stereo separation of the bass, I suggest the subs be placed outside the left and right main speakers. With them inside the speakers, they are probably too close together to yield good separation. How far apart are they?

However, I'm not sure that the way you have them set up in the receiver will yield "true stereo bass." I don't know if that is what the L & R subwoofer outputs and the "Stereo" setting does. I could find no explanation of those settings anywhere. Usually when you set up "stereo bass", you use the L & R main channel outputs to drive the subs, (or you wire them at speaker level.) That way the L & R signals a fully maintained separately into the subwoofers. Then you turn off the subwoofer outputs in the receiver and do all the Bass Management at the subwoofers. The way the RX-Z9 is set up is unique in my experience. It would be interesting to see what happens to the LFE channel and the re-directed bass when the system is set up the way you ahve it set.

The other point about "true stereo bass" is that there is significant controversy about whether humans can actually hear stereo separation at low frequencies. Some claim they can hear separation down to 40 Hz. However, with an undistorted signal, (no harmonics in the signal), most humans lose the ability to localize sound at about 80 Hz. So, if you're like most humans, "stereo Bass" below 80 Hz is not going to be a benefit. The benefits of monaural bass will far outweigh the "benefit" of stereo bass.

To get this thread back on topic, can you post some XTZ measurements of your speakers and subs in their current configuration?

Craig

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post #275 of 447 Old 11-26-2012, 01:35 PM
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Thanks Craig

The subs are about 2 meters apart. out a of 3.8 meter wide room.

The crossover is set 80hz in the Z9.

How can i test the way the Z9 do "Stereo" subs?

I have attached graphs of the the current setup.

I need to do more with the EQ on the subs as you can see, but want to get the distance right first, then deal with phase, eq etc.

Are these graphs ok?

The top graph is the left channel & the bottom is right channel.

Thanks again



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post #276 of 447 Old 11-26-2012, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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These full range measurements are not helpful for setting the Distances. You need to run the speakers and subs *together* in order to check the blend of their outputs at the crossover. The Distance setting is actually a "timing" setting. The Bass Management system looks at the Distances and uses them to set delays. For example, if the sub is the furthest away, it will "fire" first, and the speakers will be delayed relative to the sub. The goal is to have all the waves from all the speakers and sub(s) arrive at the LP at the same *TIME*.

Why is this important? If the waves arrive at different times, then the waves will be out of phase. If the negative side of one wave arrives at the same time as the positive side of another wave, they'll cancel each other and there will be no sound. I showed a graph of this phenomenon on the previous page. Here it is again:



The blue trace shows the cancellation cause by the out of phase arrival of the waves from the subs and the waves from the speakers. The green trace has had the subwoofer Distance adjusted so the delays are correct and both waves arrive in-phase with each other. The cancellation is gone.

The crossover in these traces is 80 Hz. The cancellation happens because both the speakers and the subs are generating 80 Hz. Above 80 Hz only the speakers are generating sound, while below 80 Hz only the subs are generating sound. The crossover filters are not hard "brick walls", but instead they have slopes. You can see the slopes in the response a little above and a little below 80 Hz.

Here is another system where the subwoofer Distance setting was much better to start with. Still, with some adjustment, I was able to get another 5 dB around the crossover frequency:



Above I suggested some steps to optimize your system. Two of the steps were:
Quote:
When YPAO is done, set the crossovers for your speakers to 80 Hz for your mains and to whatever is optimal for your surrounds, (you don't list surrounds, so I don't know what they are.)

Measure the response with XTZ, being especially aware of the response at 80 Hz. Adjust the subwoofer Distance setting to optimize the response around the 80 Hz crossover point.

When I suggested measuring the response with XTZ, I meant to use the Room Analyzer screen to check the response around the crossover. YPAO will have set the Distances, including the subwoofer Distance. Use that as the starting point. Then try adding some distance to the subwoofer and see if the response improves. If it does, add a little more, continuing until you get the highest response at the crossover frequency. If you can't get it all the way up to "flat", you can then try using some boost in the DD software, but you should always try to get as close to flat first before adding any boost.

Here's a question: When you run YPAO with the subs set to "Stereo", does YPAO chirp the subs separately, or together? Or, does it chirp the subs separately... and then also chirp them together?

Craig

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post #277 of 447 Old 11-26-2012, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I found this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post

Running stereo front subs (.2) on my Yamaha RX-Z9 there are separate test tones for the right and left subs and you can trim the level as well as reverse phase for both independently. I believe the Z11 is the same way.
If this is indeed the case, the RX-Z9 does have a unique Bass Management capability. Still, just because one has this unique capability doesn't mean it is best to use it. I still think there are significant benefits to monaural bass reproduced by multiple subwoofers placed separately around the room.

Craig

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post #278 of 447 Old 11-26-2012, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

How can i test the way the Z9 do "Stereo" subs?

You could connect something like an external MP3 player to one channel of the front analog input jacks. If only one sub works, then the subs are indeed stereo. The same thing could be accomplished with the analog outputs of a CD or DVD player – connect one side only. You’d have to disconnect the digital output, or choose “Analog” from the Input Mode button behind the flip-down door.

Regards,
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post #279 of 447 Old 11-26-2012, 10:16 PM
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FYI

I have sent some CD left channel only test tones through and set both stereo and mono in the Z9

With Stereo set, the left channel only played

As soon i changed the setting to mono the right sub played

I will redo the YPAO distance setting within the the next couple of days to re-check

Thanks
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post #280 of 447 Old 12-01-2012, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

Hello.
I'm waiting for my new XTZ Room Analyzer II Pro to arrive.
I have a few questions.
To start off, I have a rotel rsp-1572 processor that has a 10 band parametric eq.
Also have the awesome Neptune 30 band eq divice.

Hi muad dib, I too have the Rotel rsp-1572 prepro with 10 band PEQ and have had now for one year. I just purchased XTZ II PRo. I want to EQ my HT room, basically below 200 Hz. I have no experience doing Room EQ so finding this forum should be a big help to me. I am now subscribed so look forward to more XTZ information in the future.
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post #281 of 447 Old 12-13-2012, 01:55 PM
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Why is there so many differences in Q factor as per Waynes post?

The XTZ Qs doesn't fit with the Velodyne DDs software.

You would think that e.g. Q 4.3 would be the same.
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post #282 of 447 Old 02-16-2013, 12:44 PM
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What does anechoic, ambient, and raw mean on the right side of the attached readings? Then next I need to figure out what would cause the crazy dips at around 4k and 15k.
With and without Audyssey




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post #283 of 447 Old 02-16-2013, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

What does anechoic, ambient, and raw mean on the right side of the attached readings?

The manual says:
Quote:
Anechoic –Non reverb
Displays the results without room effects

Ambient – Room information
Displays room effects – phase cancellations and reflexes are clearly visible.

Raw – Unfiltered data
All information is displayed without any filtering. Every
little detail, reflex and phase cancellation is visible. This measurement has the highest resolution.
Quote:
Then next I need to figure out what would cause the crazy dips at around 4k and 15k.
With and without Audyssey
Are you driving the speakers one at a time or in parallel. If in parallel, don't do that.

If one at a time, what kind of speakers are they?

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post #284 of 447 Old 02-16-2013, 07:15 PM
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I figured it out. That 1st generation mic I have from XTZ is super highly directional I guess. Pointed one way I get those dips...move it an inch to the right and the dip is 2khz different or maybe there are three more. Oh well the bass readings are repeatable though, as they should be.

I can't find that info in my manual...but it just dawned on my I should probably be downloading a latest manual instead of reading mine. I bought my XTZ direct from Jens WIklund waaay back in early 2008... about 2 1/2 years before this thread started! LOL...

Interesting descriptions, though. How would the software "Display the results without room effects?" EDIT: I get it now - its just the measurement VERY soon after the sound is played... very little delay

To answer your questions, though... I believe I was running the stereo pair of fronts for that reading. When I added the center channel in that did smooth it out. But you are saying I should just run one channel at a time?

The speakers are Seaton Catalyst 12s.


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post #285 of 447 Old 02-17-2013, 08:21 AM
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Anyone know how I get get the tones to play louder? Using the slider on the right side only results in a half tone being put out at the louder setting and then automatically moving itself back to a range of ~ 60db tones.


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post #286 of 447 Old 02-17-2013, 03:13 PM
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Anyone know if I can use any of the new Analyzer II software off the website. I have the original XTZ analyzer and currently have Analyzer Pro 2.0 installed?

Sean
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post #287 of 447 Old 02-18-2013, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_w_smith View Post

Anyone know if I can use any of the new Analyzer II software off the website. I have the original XTZ analyzer and currently have Analyzer Pro 2.0 installed?

Sean

Yes you can use the II Pro software with the old hardware.


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post #288 of 447 Old 02-19-2013, 11:23 PM
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What i have read when Eqing

1. Measure both speakers combined < 250hz

2. Then > 250 measure individually

Is this correct?

If this is right why this way?


With XTZ Analayzer which graph is it best to EQ on the Full Range tab Raw, Anechoic, Ambient?

Thank you
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post #289 of 447 Old 04-26-2013, 03:45 AM
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Hi im curious those waterfall charts I dont understand how to read them ive been googling trying to understand how to read but I couldnt find anywhere that it explains. Is there a link that I can read up on those charts?

Thank you

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post #290 of 447 Old 04-26-2013, 04:46 PM
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Not much to it, really. Each horizontal line indicates a "slice" (fraction) of time as the signal fades away from its "starting point" until it falls below the graph's floor. Not perfectly honed for your question, but you should be able to glean enough information from this post to figure out what waterfalls are all about.

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post #291 of 447 Old 04-27-2013, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post


Not much to it, really. Each horizontal line indicates a "slice" (fraction) of time as the signal fades away from its "starting point" until it falls below the graph's floor. Not perfectly honed for your question, but you should be able to glean enough information from this post to figure out what waterfalls are all about.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt




Thank you for your reply and link. Will have a read smile.gif

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post #292 of 447 Old 06-03-2013, 04:56 AM
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Hi Guys
Just ordered a XTZ Room Analyser II PRO so looking forward to trying it out

Hoping to find the best LP and improve the performance of 2 Subwoofers in a dedicated room that has irregular dimensions

I have a camera tripod and wondered if the XTZ Pro microphone, or the supplied stand, has a threaded insert which might fit as I believe the supplied stand is not really very practicable?

I have 3 leather reclining chares in my Home Cinema which I remove when doing any Audyssey calibrations.

Is this advisable when using the XTZ as I always suspect the back of the chair will affect the readings, also makes the stand positioning easier

Regards
Andy
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post #293 of 447 Old 06-03-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post

I have a camera tripod and wondered if the XTZ Pro microphone, or the supplied stand, has a threaded insert which might fit as I believe the supplied stand is not really very practicable?

It does but you should consider a real mic stand with a boom that will let you position the mic with ease at the MLP without direct contact to the seating.


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post #294 of 447 Old 06-03-2013, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

It does but you should consider a real mic stand with a boom that will let you position the mic with ease at the MLP without direct contact to the seating.

Many thanks for the reply so its better that I leave the seats in place, would I need a mike clip with a boom mic stand?
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post #295 of 447 Old 06-03-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post


Many thanks for the reply so its better that I leave the seats in place, would I need a mike clip with a boom mic stand?

The mic clip is included in XTZ Pro kit.


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post #296 of 447 Old 06-03-2013, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The mic clip is included in XTZ Pro kit.

Excellent
Many thanks for the prompt replies
No doubt I will be back once it arrives and I've had a play with it

Is there any guidance for new users on the thread giving suggestions on how to start finding out if you have a good LP, the best initial position for your 1st SUB moving onto where to position your second SUB?

I have been through the thread but can't find anything

I am thinking along the lines of SUB1 at the front wall left corner then running the XTZ at 58Hz using the mike along the front wall to find the Nulls for the width of the room,

Theory suggests a 19'7" front wall will have 3 nulls at 4'9" (58hz) and second at 9'9" (58hz) and a third at 14'3" (58hz) then positioning 1 SUB at the first null and a second SUB at the third null should give good results, if not at least it may be a starting point?

Theory is all well and good and there are so many variables one of which is my irregular shaped room

My simplistic view might show my naivety so cut me some slack
Andy
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post #297 of 447 Old 06-03-2013, 05:30 PM
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I found the crawling method to be very good for sub placement! I didn't try for the longest time and now that I tried it this weekend, I can't belie e that I didn't do it sooner.

Next step buying an XTZ PROII and measure the room smile.gif

My humble Cinema
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post #298 of 447 Old 06-03-2013, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post

Hi Guys
Just ordered a XTZ Room Analyser II PRO so looking forward to trying it .....I have 3 leather reclining chares in my Home Cinema which I remove when doing any Audyssey calibrations. Andy

Cool I need to buy the XTZ as well.

By removing your chairs your are changing the acoustics of your room? You should probably leave the chairs in and if possible also add people as our body absorbs energy as well! The audience will absorb much of the sound energy that strikes them.

An Overview of the Acoustical Effects of an Audience: http://www.acoustics.org/press/131st/lay02.html

Here are a few interesting pdfs and websites.
- http://www.creationbaumann.com/download/Basic_of_acoustics_en.pdf
- http://astro.pas.rochester.edu/~aquillen/phy103/Labs/RoomLab.pdf
- http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/articles/live_linearrays.htm


Now here is something that would be really cool: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20043426-47.html

http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-at-ces-2011/thx-audio-technology-showcase/
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post #299 of 447 Old 06-03-2013, 08:42 PM
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Has anyone taken near field measurements with the XTZ?

Also which is the best way to EQ using the XTZ from 250hz upwards?


This might help:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1005-Multiple-Subwoofer-Placement&highlight=multiple+subwoofers
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post #300 of 447 Old 06-04-2013, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

Has anyone taken near field measurements with the XTZ?

Also which is the best way to EQ using the XTZ from 250hz upwards?


This might help:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1005-Multiple-Subwoofer-Placement&highlight=multiple+subwoofers


Thanks for the reply
I am basing my Sub positioning as per part of the article you linked "Placing 2 to 4 subwoofers in the room’s corners, wall midpoints, or at 25% and 75% along the wall dimension"
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