The "Official" xtz Room Analyzer Thread - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 444 Old 08-13-2013, 12:49 PM
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Have you viewed your graphs with lower resolution? All posted are 1/12 octave - you're not really going to hear that. People like to work in high resolution, but you can argue that all it does is make things look worse than they really are. Don't forget the X axis is 1/3 octave, which I think means forcing a 1/12 resolution onto it will exaggerate differences. Of course this is what you want if you're really into fine tuning, but it also can lead to chasing your tail - need to find a balance.

Personally, I work in 1/6 (6 pt.) and use 1/12 and 1/3 as checks.

After running Audyssey, do you immediately setup the xtz mic in the same position and balance all speaker output with your AVR? I've found this makes a difference since the bass will probably measure lower.

Instead of doing the align thing, have you just tried adding 1 ft. at a time to the sub distance and measuring each step until there's no real change? Then go the other way and reduce it. Then fine tune it at .5 ft. increments.

Have you tried stacking the subs in a corner and setting them identically including level matching?

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post #422 of 444 Old 08-13-2013, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't bother with any "procedures" to set the subwoofer Distance. I just use trial and error and measurements. I start by adding 4 ft. to the Audyssey set Distance. If that helps, I add a little more. If that makes it worse, I go the other direction and subtract a little. I keep working in smaller and smaller distance increments until I have the best graph possible, and adding or subtracting the smallest increment of Distance only makes the graph worse. I always save the most recent graph and keep it on the screen so I can see how the new graph compares to it. By doing so, you can get the graph to go from the blue trace to the green trace:



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post #423 of 444 Old 08-13-2013, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

Have you viewed your graphs with lower resolution? All posted are 1/12 octave - you're not really going to hear that. People like to work in high resolution, but you can argue that all it does is make things look worse than they really are. Don't forget the X axis is 1/3 octave, which I think means forcing a 1/12 resolution onto it will exaggerate differences. Of course this is what you want if you're really into fine tuning, but it also can lead to chasing your tail - need to find a balance.

Personally, I work in 1/6 (6 pt.) and use 1/12 and 1/3 as checks.

After running Audyssey, do you immediately setup the xtz mic in the same position and balance all speaker output with your AVR? I've found this makes a difference since the bass will probably measure lower.
If you reset the speaker levels after running Audyssey, and you use the receiver's test tones as the signal, you are bypassing Audyssey. The test tones don't go through Audyssey's EQ; they bypass it, so the levels don't reflect the boosts and cuts done by Audyssey. I don't suggest doing that as the levels will no longer be correct when Audyssey is re-engaged. If you want to check the levels post-Audyssey, I suggest you do so with an external test tone set, like the 5.1 Audio Toolkit or Avia.
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Originally Posted by fjames View Post

Instead of doing the align thing, have you just tried adding 1 ft. at a time to the sub distance and measuring each step until there's no real change? Then go the other way and reduce it. Then fine tune it at .5 ft. increments.
That is an excellent procedure. Please see my post above. smile.gif

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post #424 of 444 Old 08-13-2013, 04:52 PM
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Hi Guys
Thanks for posting
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames
Have you viewed your graphs with lower resolution? All posted are 1/12 octave -

I first posted my graphs here using the standard smoothed XTZ Room analyser setting and was advised by Graig that I should use the advanced 1/12 resolution so that's what I have been using and posting ever since
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames After running Audyssey, do you immediately setup the xtz mic in the same position and balance all speaker output with your AVR? I've found this makes a difference since the bass will probably measure lower.

I have done this a few times and it does make a difference especially with the surrounds
Nyal's procedure advises that the XTZ SPL meter was very accurate but I have found that it reads low by about 4db compared my SPL meter which agrees with my AVR test tones at 75db

Right or wrong the low frequency levels always read high on the charts and RTA, so I use the RTA and reduce the subs to better match the Full Range
This always results in low readings on SPL meters and running the AVR test tones, it sounds OK but open to comment on this approach
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames instead of doing the align thing, have you just tried adding 1 ft. at a time to the sub distance and measuring each step until there's no real change? Then go the other way and reduce it. Then fine tune it at .5 ft. increments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig By doing so, you can get the graph to go from the blue trace to the green trace:

Interesting you should both mention that, no disrespect to Nyal as I do not get the expected results using the "Auto Align" feature this afternoon I used Graig and Mark Seaton's procedure and added distance to my subwoofers

I am shocked at how much I needed to add and exceeded the 8' increase limit which was advised
The Audyssey setting was Sub 1 7'6" Sub 2 7'9"
I adjusted the settings until I got the best I could but they are a massive
Sub 1 21'51/2" Sub 2 21' 8" this resulted in no ringing, what was interesting was if I made them identical there was a lot of ringing on the graph


Blue subs adjusted as above, Green Audyssey EQ not perfect but far better, also notice the decay chart



Sub adjust at lower resolution
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post #425 of 444 Old 08-18-2013, 10:31 PM
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See here for a discussion of sub group delay and time alignment http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

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post #426 of 444 Old 08-18-2013, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post

Hi Guys
Thanks for posting
I first posted my graphs here using the standard smoothed XTZ Room analyser setting and was advised by Graig that I should use the advanced 1/12 resolution so that's what I have been using and posting ever since
I have done this a few times and it does make a difference especially with the surrounds
Nyal's procedure advises that the XTZ SPL meter was very accurate but I have found that it reads low by about 4db compared my SPL meter which agrees with my AVR test tones at 75db

Right or wrong the low frequency levels always read high on the charts and RTA, so I use the RTA and reduce the subs to better match the Full Range
This always results in low readings on SPL meters and running the AVR test tones, it sounds OK but open to comment on this approach

Interesting you should both mention that, no disrespect to Nyal as I do not get the expected results using the "Auto Align" feature this afternoon I used Graig and Mark Seaton's procedure and added distance to my subwoofers

I am shocked at how much I needed to add and exceeded the 8' increase limit which was advised
The Audyssey setting was Sub 1 7'6" Sub 2 7'9"
I adjusted the settings until I got the best I could but they are a massive
Sub 1 21'51/2" Sub 2 21' 8" this resulted in no ringing, what was interesting was if I made them identical there was a lot of ringing on the graph


Blue subs adjusted as above, Green Audyssey EQ not perfect but far better, also notice the decay chart



Sub adjust at lower resolution
From what you say I think when using the xtz auto align you should have added the 14ms or so delay to the sub rather than the speakers as I suggested. XTZ reports delay to be added against either the measurement or the overlay when you follow the procedure I posted...I didn't see your screenshot so must have misinterpreted whether the delay should have been added to the speakers or subs.

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post #427 of 444 Old 08-19-2013, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

From what you say I think when using the xtz auto align you should have added the 14ms or so delay to the sub rather than the speakers as I suggested. XTZ reports delay to be added against either the measurement or the overlay when you follow the procedure I posted...I didn't see your screenshot so must have misinterpreted whether the delay should have been added to the speakers or subs.

Hi Nyal

Thanks for the reply
The XTZ "Auto Delay" feature indicated that the adjustment should be applied to overlay 1 which was the speakers and is in line with your procedure
So really the info in XTZ was incorrect
At least adding the extra 14ms to the subs showed I was heading in the right direction to close the crossover null
So the recommendation from yourself Craig John and fjames were spot on

I must admit room acoustics is way beyond me but fascinating just the same
I have spent a lot of time reading up on sub positioning but theory and practice never seem to work
Without XTZ you would never know how bad things are, or by how much they change by repositioning the subwoofer and or LP

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all members who have help me enormously with my various problems and questions I couldn't have got this far without you
Of course I am still experimenting in trying to optimise my system but feel I have posted enough questions now and do not want to outstay my welcome

Hopefully my posts have been relevant and will be of some use to another newbie in the use of XTZ smile.gif
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post #428 of 444 Old 08-19-2013, 07:04 PM
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Hi with the "Delay Finder" in the Room Analyzer procedure in which order should it be?

1. Set the crossover on the receiver

2. Check the phase and polarity

3. Check levels between sub and mains

4. EQ sub separately

5. Use the Delay Finder and add differences to the sub.

Thank you
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post #429 of 444 Old 08-21-2013, 10:34 AM
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Should i buy this? Are there other options for roughly the same price? It seems pretty good.

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post #430 of 444 Old 10-27-2013, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Of course, it won't be published for months. biggrin.gif

Hi Kal were you able to do the review with the DEQ with measurements with the XTZ?
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post #431 of 444 Old 10-28-2013, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post


Hi Kal were you able to do the review with the DEQ with measurements with the XTZ?

Still in the thick of it.


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post #432 of 444 Old 01-01-2014, 11:57 PM
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I'm thinking of getting a plug and play room analyzer. The XTZ Room Analyzer Pro II is a candidate. The selling point of the XTZ is the ease of use, but concerns on the software issues that Lesmor ran into has made me pause. Since I've got Windows 8 Pro, has anyone else tried to use Windows 8 with XTZ?

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post #433 of 444 Old 01-02-2014, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post

I'm thinking of getting a plug and play room analyzer. The XTZ Room Analyzer Pro II is a candidate. The selling point of the XTZ is the ease of use, but concerns on the software issues that Lesmor ran into has made me pause. Since I've got Windows 8 Pro, has anyone else tried to use Windows 8 with XTZ?
Hi
Saw your post mentioned the issues I encountered with Windows 8

First I think the XTZ Room analyser Pro is a great product and have no regrets buying it
As you said it is the ease of use that attracted me to it

The W8 issue when using the "Full Range" tab as far as I know still does not work, at least not on my Acer laptop with W8 Pro installed, I gave up with XTZ support
The main Room Analyser and RTA tabs work fine

I now run the program on a Windows 7 laptop and there are no issues.

Perhaps you should wait and see if any other Windows 8 users reply

Off thread but I believe REW is now a lot easier than when I first tried it, you just need a compatible external sound card, Microphone and some RCA cables.
It would work out far cheaper
It is also a lot more sophisticated if you wanted to make use of the features
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post #434 of 444 Old 01-02-2014, 11:09 PM
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Hi Lesmor,

I reckon the problem could be the USB microphone driver of Windows 8. This has also caused some grief to users of OmniMic, but at least they managed to find a work around. The trick appears to be to right click the app and choose properties, then select to run under Windows XP SP3 compatibility mode. Not sure if any one here is willing to give this a go and see if it does work.

In the meantime, I'll have a look at REW. Thought it was a pain to use but there seems to be a thread that lays out a plug and play approach to it.

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post #435 of 444 Old 01-03-2014, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post

Hi Lesmor,

I reckon the problem could be the USB microphone driver of Windows 8. This has also caused some grief to users of OmniMic, but at least they managed to find a work around. The trick appears to be to right click the app and choose properties, then select to run under Windows XP SP3 compatibility mode. Not sure if any one here is willing to give this a go and see if it does work.

In the meantime, I'll have a look at REW. Thought it was a pain to use but there seems to be a thread that lays out a plug and play approach to it.
Hi
Well I am not expert enough to give an opinion on that other than, drivers were checked and found to be current and the programmers have not come up with a solution
If you look far enough back in the thread there were other issues with the software giving very low readings in Windows 8 which made it to all intents and purposes useless
It took 2 updates to software to resolve that issue and XTZ never acknowledged that there was a problem at any time.
To be fair last time I looked nowhere in the XTZ website does it say the product is compatible with Windows 8, only Windows 7
IMHO there also appears to be serious language difficulties dealing with Nordic countries ( Not just XTZ ) and getting acceptable support
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post #436 of 444 Old 03-29-2014, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Still in the thick of it.

Any progress on this Kal
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post #437 of 444 Old 03-29-2014, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post


Any progress on this Kal

Yes but not so that anyone but me would notice.  The measurements should be finished this week and then I will be ready to write.


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post #438 of 444 Old 05-07-2014, 11:57 PM
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Hi has anyone measured a Dirac or DEQX before and after that could be posted?
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post #439 of 444 Old 05-09-2014, 04:37 AM
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How does the XTZ room analyzer kit compare to using REW with a USB mic? Is the XTZ kit more simple to use? Plug & play? I would be using it for frequency response sweeps, waterfall graphs, ect...does the kit come with all of the hardware, (mic, cables, ect..) and software needed for measurements?

Also, where is the best, (ie: cheapest), place to purchase the XTZ room analyzer kit?
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post #440 of 444 Old 05-09-2014, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

How does the XTZ room analyzer kit compare to using REW with a USB mic? Is the XTZ kit more simple to use? Plug & play? I would be using it for frequency response sweeps, waterfall graphs, ect...does the kit come with all of the hardware, (mic, cables, ect..) and software needed for measurements?

Also, where is the best, (ie: cheapest), place to purchase the XTZ room analyzer kit?

1.  The XTZ is simple to use and everything is included in the kit.  It is much easier but, also, much more limited and useful than REW.  A compromise between the two is Omnimic. It is one complete package ready to go that is almost as simple a setup as XTZ but much more powerful (although short of REW).There are reviews of each in many places but, also, in my column.

 

2.  AFAIK, available only from the manufacturer or the US importer.


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post #441 of 444 Old 05-10-2014, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

1.  The XTZ is simple to use and everything is included in the kit.  It is much easier but, also, much more limited and useful than REW.  A compromise between the two is Omnimic. It is one complete package ready to go that is almost as simple a setup as XTZ but much more powerful (although short of REW).There are reviews of each in many places but, also, in my column.

2.  AFAIK, available only from the manufacturer or the US importer.

Just out of curiosity, in what ways is the XTZ Room Analyzer II kit more limited in its measurement abilities compared to REW or OmniMic? I can't afford a $250 or $300 measurement kit, but, I have decided to sell my legacy REW equipment setup as I just realized that I do indeed have an HDMI equipped laptop and will be purchasing a USB mic in order to simplify things. (Oh and you will have an Email shortly!)
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post #442 of 444 Old 05-10-2014, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post


Just out of curiosity, in what ways is the XTZ Room Analyzer II kit more limited in its measurement abilities compared to REW or OmniMic? I can't afford a $250 or $300 measurement kit, but, I have decided to sell my legacy REW equipment setup as I just realized that I do indeed have an HDMI equipped laptop and will be purchasing a USB mic in order to simplify things. (Oh and you will have an Email shortly!)

You can find my comments on these at the Stereophile website but, basically, XTZ is competitive low frequencies but without the more complex analyses and control of the others.  It has fewer tools above the mid-bass.


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post #443 of 444 Old 07-22-2014, 01:04 PM
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This is an extremely useful thread. I have a room analyzer pro on the way in an ongoing quest to solve a boomy bass issue (related to my room setup which is not entirely correctable with speaker placement, listening placement or passive treatments, all of which I've tried and which helped some).

My question is whether once you fine the room mode problem (very likely my issue), do you adjust the parametric eq to try to get it flat, or something less than that? I ask because many people say that when they program their PARC to be flat after an XTZ analysis, it sounds lifeless, so they end up only attenuating the bass node about 1/2 or 1/3 of what the XTZ finds.

Does anyone have thoughts on this? I know I can experiment but I'll be programming a mcintosh mq 107 eq manually with capacitors and want to try to get it right the first time.

Thanks for any advice.
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post #444 of 444 Old 07-23-2014, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardinalfreak View Post
I ask because many people say that when they program their PARC to be flat after an XTZ analysis, it sounds lifeless, so they end up only attenuating the bass node about 1/2 or 1/3 of what the XTZ finds.

Does anyone have thoughts on this?
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