I Didn't Expect to Hear a Difference... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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but I did. I'm now a believer in what wires, interconnects, fuses, cable lifts, wooden tuning blocks, Noise Harvesters, CD break-in discs, cryo-treated outlets, Magic Pebbles, isolation cones, etc. can do. My soundstage is now wider, my bass is less boomy, I can place instruments precisely, the sound is more organic, veils have been lifted and I'm hearing stuff I never knew was there, etc. as a result.

How many time have you read something along those lines? And the rationale? Science doesn't know everything, we all hear differently, you need a resolving system, you have to know what to look for, and other explanations are offered in support of the person's statement. So what could be reasons when a person experiences a particular reaction to a change in their system like those above when for many it doesn't? After all, some of the changes just don't make any sense or they have no applicability outside the realm of audio. Why do people hear things when they 'honestly' state they didn't believe it could make a difference?

Perhaps the reasons can be found in the article, Placebos Work, Even When We Know They're Placebos.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #2 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 05:24 AM
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Saw that headline a while back. What do you take from it, other than the mind is a powerful thing and that "medical practice" is still an appropriate term (sorry doctors, I couldn't resist)?

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #3 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

but I did. I'm now a believer in what wires, interconnects, fuses, cable lifts, wooden tuning blocks, Noise Harvesters, CD break-in discs, cryo-treated outlets, Magic Pebbles, isolation cones, etc. can do. My soundstage is now wider, my bass is less boomy, I can place instruments precisely, the sound is more organic, veils have been lifted and I'm hearing stuff I never knew was there, etc. as a result.

How many time have you read something along those lines? And the rationale? Science doesn't know everything, we all hear differently, you need a resolving system, you have to know what to look for, and other explanations are offered in support of the person's statement. So what could be reasons when a person experiences a particular reaction to a change in their system like those above when for many it doesn't? After all, some of the changes just don't make any sense or they have no applicability outside the realm of audio. Why do people hear things when they 'honestly' state they didn't believe it could make a difference?

Perhaps the reasons can be found in the article, Placebos Work, Even When We Know They're Placebos.

I don't know what you tried, or did not try, to come to this revelation. But I'm a big believer in placebos. There are in fact many things we (scientists) do not understand. The brain, and weather, being two prime examples. Not much we can do about the weather . . .

Placebos seem to work in medicine. There is no reason to think they would not also work in something as "simple" as hearing.

I have a happy family, because that is what I want. I don't get sick because I don't want to be sick. My simple stereo songs good, because I want it to. My mind is strong, one day it might not be, then I'll hopefully die quickly.

It does piss me off that I can't pass a DBT on equipment I think might be different. Maybe one day. More likely NOT. Until then I'll use the stuff that makes my feable mind happy. (and save myself huge amounts of money

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #4 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 07:32 AM
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...It does piss me off that I can't pass a DBT on equipment I think might be different. Maybe one day. More likely NOT. Until then I'll use the stuff that makes my feable mind happy. (and save myself huge amounts of money

Couldn't agree more. I've never been able to pass any ABX test I've been part of. Never. And I believed. I really did. I lived, breathed, and believed it for over 30 years. Until I actually started to participate in testing. Now my audiophile friends throw stones at me, and can't understand why I went over to the dark side.

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post #5 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 08:03 AM
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I've never been able to pass any ABX test I've been part of. Never.

Try comparing 128 mp3 to lossless. Likely you'll be able to do that (though some people can not). Then work your way up. It still boggles my mind how much information we can throw away and not notice (if we do not know in advance).

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #6 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

Try comparing 128 mp3 to lossless. Likely you'll be able to do that (though some people can not). Then work your way up. It still boggles my mind how much information we can throw away and not notice (if we do not know in advance).

I can't listen to 128 mp3 anymore. It sticks out like a sore thumb.. and sounds terrible! I can't believe anyone still settles for that crap...

I guess it sounds good on Apple's i-headphones...
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post #7 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dknightd View Post
Try comparing 128 mp3 to lossless. Likely you'll be able to do that (though some people can not). Then work your way up. It still boggles my mind how much information we can throw away and not notice (if we do not know in advance).
I haven't gotten around to doing any testing of loseless yet. I'm looking forward to it, though, when I get some time.

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post #8 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

Try comparing 128 mp3 to lossless. Likely you'll be able to do that (though some people can not). Then work your way up. It still boggles my mind how much information we can throw away and not notice (if we do not know in advance).

128 does sound much more compressed. I have done that test, Now 320kpbs vs lossless is a different story.

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post #9 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by fxspec06 View Post

I can't listen to 128 mp3 anymore. It sticks out like a sore thumb.. and sounds terrible! I can't believe anyone still settles for that crap...

I guess it sounds good on Apple's i-headphones...

I have about 10,000 songs stored from years of ripping my CDs. Back when space was expensive 128k was good enough because space didnt exist.

Going from 320K to a 128K song is noticeable for sure. I do not need to see the song specs to know that its 320K or 128K.

At some point I will redo the songs still saved at 128K.

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post #10 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

but I did. I'm now a believer in what wires, interconnects, fuses, cable lifts, wooden tuning blocks, Noise Harvesters, CD break-in discs, cryo-treated outlets, Magic Pebbles, isolation cones, etc. can do. My soundstage is now wider, my bass is less boomy, I can place instruments precisely, the sound is more organic, veils have been lifted and I'm hearing stuff I never knew was there, etc. as a result.


you left one out: "Even my wife heard it'.

Anyway, regarding the placebo story that was all the rage before Xmas, here's this:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...bo_ef.php#more


The lesson is, do not ever depend on the news media to correctly report the nuances of a science story.
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post #11 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

Try comparing 128 mp3 to lossless.
Likely you'll be able to do that (though some people can not). Then work your way up. It still boggles my mind how much information we can throw away and not notice (if we do not know in advance).


'128 mp3' is meaningless. Not just because you really mean '128 kbps mp3', but because there is more than one way to make a 128 kbps mp3. Some of them are going to produce 128 kbps mp3s that have more audible artifacts than others. And the music being encoded matters too.


I'm confident that many people here who claim to be able to tell '128 mp3' from source, would fail an ABX of a *well-made* '128 kbps mp3' of most musical sources. Try LAME 3.98.4 at setting -v5 (-v5 is a variable bitrate setting that sets a target bitrate of 130 kbps).


If you need to be assured that you can hear differences between lossy and lossless, try a target bitrate of 85 kbps (-v8)
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post #12 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 03:12 PM
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'128 mp3' is meaningless. Not just because you really mean '128 kbps mp3', but because there is more than one way to make a 128 kbps mp3. Some of them are going to produce 128 kbps mp3s that have more audible artifacts than others. And the music being encoded matters too.


I'm confident that many people here who claim to be able to tell '128 mp3' from source, would fail an ABX of a *well-made* '128 kbps mp3' of most musical sources.

You might be right. It has been many years since i've tried that test. Likely encoders are better than they used to be. Perhaps I should have said try 64 kbps mp3 . . .

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #13 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

you left one out: "Even my wife heard it'.

Anyway, regarding the placebo story that was all the rage before Xmas, here's this:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...bo_ef.php#more


The lesson is, do not ever depend on the news media to correctly report the nuances of a science story.

I would have done that krabapple, but I didn't speak to your wife. I also left out something along the lines that my dog acted differently. Thanks for the followup link. Does that mean my premise was wrong?

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post #14 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...bo_ef.php#more


The lesson is, do not ever depend on the news media to correctly report the nuances of a science story.

Interesting. This is something Dr. Dean Edell would talk about often on his syndicated radio show; i.e., the typically ham-fisted way in which the general news media would report on medical studies, getting the details wrong or even missing the key point. Too bad he just recently retired. A lot of medical whackos are jumping for joy right now, as a result of his departure from the airwaves.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #15 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 04:44 PM
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Damn Chu... Seeing the title, I thought you were finally coming over to the dark side.

- Rutgar


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post #16 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 04:57 PM
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Does that mean my premise was wrong?

Hmm. Maybe, maybe not.

The study results seem to reveal that if someone of an elevated status or an authority figure, such as a doctor, suggests something could possibly be effective, then it might induce the patient to report back in a positive manner.

In this study, patients weren't simply told they would be receiving placebo pills. They were told that the "placebo pills they would take were capable of activating some "mind-body" healing process".

So maybe there could still be some pertinence to the extent that, when a questionable audio product is recommended, sold or given to them by someone that the audio hobbyist either considers to be an authority in the field of audio, or, perhaps it need only be someone they respect in general, a similarly positive result might follow.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #17 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 05:07 PM
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I think this is great news. Now instead of telling people to take two asprin and call me in the morning, doctors can say take two placebo every day and call me in eleven days. Do you have any idea how much money can be saved? Probably billions !

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #18 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 05:25 PM
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:d


EDIT: damn, the weirdest thing.. I tried typing out the code for the green big shite-eating grin smiley, which usually works, but here it just posted the code (colon, small letter 'd'). So then I go to advanced edit, clicking upon the actual green big green smiley symbol, and still... the above 'colon, small letter d' combo gets posted instead.


(well, at least the confused smilie still works as it should)

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #19 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I think this is great news. Now instead of telling people to take two asprin and call me in the morning, doctors can say take two placebo every day and call me in eleven days. Do you have any idea how much money can be saved? Probably billions !

Make it a box you have to check off when choosing a health plan 'cept you can't switch. Your premiums will be less and you can have all the homepathic stuff or whatever you need.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #20 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 08:01 PM
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....
Perhaps the reasons can be found in the article, Placebos Work, Even When We Know They're Placebos.

I wouldn't call that an experiment, let alone a good one.
This tells the story why:
a control group which received no treatment, and a group given a twice-a-day placebo, which were truthfully described as being like sugar pills.

Not only did we make it absolutely clear that these pills had no active ingredient and were made from inert substances, but we actually had placebo' printed on the bottle, says Kaptchuk. We told the patients that they didn't have to even believe in the placebo effect. Just take the pills.


It is a sighted test, of course it will do what you want it to do.
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post #21 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 08:08 PM
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Interesting. This is something Dr. Dean Edell would talk about often on his syndicated radio show; i.e., the typically ham-fisted way in which the general news media would report on medical studies, getting the details wrong or even missing the key point. Too bad he just recently retired. A lot of medical whackos are jumping for joy right now, as a result of his departure from the airwaves.

Boy, do I miss that old fart
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post #22 of 55 Old 01-03-2011, 08:10 PM
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Damn Chu... Seeing the title, I thought you were finally coming over to the dark side.

I doubt he can navigate in the dark.
But, maybe he got a night scope for christmas.
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post #23 of 55 Old 01-04-2011, 05:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't call that an experiment, let alone a good one.
This tells the story why:
a control group which received no treatment, and a group given a twice-a-day placebo, which were truthfully described as being like sugar pills.

Not only did we make it absolutely clear that these pills had no active ingredient and were made from inert substances, but we actually had placebo' printed on the bottle, says Kaptchuk. We told the patients that they didn't have to even believe in the placebo effect. Just take the pills.


It is a sighted test, of course it will do what you want it to do.

I'm not saying it was a good experiment, Charles. I wanted to see if I could draw some parallels with the placebo 'study' and the "I didn't expect to hear a difference but I did." refrain.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #24 of 55 Old 01-04-2011, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Boy, do I miss that old fart

I'd be happy to bottle one up for you and send it your way! You can find a few episodes of his show at the Internet Archive.

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post #25 of 55 Old 01-04-2011, 08:30 AM
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My all-time favorite is "My Mom could hear the difference from another room while doing the dishes"
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post #26 of 55 Old 01-04-2011, 10:04 AM
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I bet if you all opened your wallets a moth would fly out.
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post #27 of 55 Old 01-04-2011, 10:14 AM
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I bet if you all opened your wallets a moth would fly out.

Shouldn't have to... Any reputable vendor will let you try before buy.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #28 of 55 Old 01-04-2011, 04:38 PM
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Maybe you should change the title of this thread to "I Didn't Expect to Hear a Difference.... So I Didn't." The majority of you don't test or compare any cables in real life so at least it's nice to see you all role playing as if you have.
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post #29 of 55 Old 01-04-2011, 04:40 PM
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I bet if you all opened your wallets a moth would fly out.

Why is that? They should be all dead.
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post #30 of 55 Old 01-04-2011, 07:38 PM
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I bet if you all opened your wallets a moth would fly out.

Wanna make a bet which one of us buys more audio equipment per month?

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