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post #1 of 668 Old 01-21-2011, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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This is a typical stage setup for FOH (PA system) and recording rig. Notice all the mix of cables, NO LIFTERS, multiple mic lines and preamp lines in multi pair snakes, standard twist-lock AC connectors and common everyday 12-4 SJO, packed racks.

You cannot truly believe that if this wiring is perfectly fine for RECORDING your music that you must spend thousands on a few feet of cable in you living room in order to capture the nuances that were recorded using all this.
LL
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post #2 of 668 Old 01-22-2011, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post
This is a typical stage setup for FOH (PA system) and recording rig. Notice all the mix of cables, NO LIFTERS, multiple mic lines and preamp lines in multi pair snakes, standard twist-lock AC connectors and common everyday 12-4 SJO, packed racks.

You cannot truly believe that if this wiring is perfectly fine for RECORDING your music that you must spend thousands on a few feet of cable in you living room in order to capture the nuances that were recorded using all this.
Where are all the crystals taped to the wires?

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post #3 of 668 Old 01-22-2011, 07:42 AM
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Where are all the crystals taped to the wires?
No No. They are taped to the inside of the SPEAKER wiring to magically recondition the signal from the awesome $500 per/ft cable to the marginally inexpensive 14 gauge wire most manufacturers use inside of their speakers without so much as a hiccup in sound quality.

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post #4 of 668 Old 01-22-2011, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Dude! Like I totally freaking forgot about the crystals! I was told buy by the friend of the guys brother who mows the lawn of the guy who sells the crystals that I should spend 11,000.00 per channel and use audiophool grade Dilythium crystals Mark2 series with the mega LF, uber HF enhancement nodes.

He tells me that I will now hear the lost music above 25khz.
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post #5 of 668 Old 01-22-2011, 10:34 AM
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He tells me that I will now hear the lost music above 25khz.


Especially on Redbook digital.
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post #6 of 668 Old 01-22-2011, 10:49 AM
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Nice job gizmo - neat and clean !

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #7 of 668 Old 01-22-2011, 11:02 AM
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Any chance you could pm me a bigger picture so I could scan it in and map it for my room. I like to borrow someone else's design/work to better my own setup without forking over large amounts of cheddar.
Thanks in advance
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post #8 of 668 Old 01-22-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

This is a typical stage setup for FOH (PA system) and recording rig. Notice all the mix of cables, NO LIFTERS, multiple mic lines and preamp lines in multi pair snakes, standard twist-lock AC connectors and common everyday 12-4 SJO, packed racks.

You cannot truly believe that if this wiring is perfectly fine for RECORDING your music that you must spend thousands on a few feet of cable in you living room in order to capture the nuances that were recorded using all this.

Yikes talk about parasitic cross contamination. Now that's what makes me squirm. What it could have been. Optimal vs adequate...someday some of you may see the light.

I do realize it would not be cost effective to wire that pro system with high end cables, but home systems are a different matter.
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post #9 of 668 Old 01-22-2011, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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"Yikes talk about parasitic cross contamination. Now that's what makes me squirm. What it could have been. Optimal vs adequate...someday some of you may see the light."

Please explain your PROVEN concerns about said "contamination".

Been in the industry a LONG time (40+ years) as have others here. We do not have "cross contamination" issues that cannot be relatively easily pinpointed and repaired and the repair does not EVER require anything more than stock cable.

"I do realize it would not be cost effective to wire that system with high end cables, but home systems are a different matter."

Please explain exactly HOW a home system is more sensitive than the systems that record the very material you listen to.

Have you ever actually worked on a show where professional equipment is used? They generally have a great deal more capability to process audio and video than ANY system in a home install.
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post #10 of 668 Old 01-22-2011, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

"Yikes talk about parasitic cross contamination. Now that's what makes me squirm. What it could have been. Optimal vs adequate...someday some of you may see the light."

Please explain your PROVEN concerns about said "contamination".

Been in the industry a LONG time (40+ years) as have others here. We do not have "cross contamination" issues that cannot be relatively easily pinpointed and repaired and the repair does not EVER require anything more than stock cable.

"I do realize it would not be cost effective to wire that system with high end cables, but home systems are a different matter."

Please explain exactly HOW a home system is more sensitive than the systems that record the very material you listen to.

Have you ever actually worked on a show where professional equipment is used? They generally have a great deal more capability to process audio and video than ANY system in a home install.

Yep, +1 and add few zeros...................

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post #11 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 04:16 AM
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Live events where wires are walked on, twisted thrown about, and it all sounds GREAT! At home, ya needs magical wall outlets, and special cable lifts, cus those floors can really distort stuff. High end home audio is rife with scams and BS. they record with wires that are rated for their function, get it home and the same music needs mystical BS. It keeps magazines like Stereophile and TAS in business, advertising all the nonsense. along with $27,000 CD players. Work some live events and you learn what it really is all about.
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post #12 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by CEDUPZ View Post

Live events where wires are walked on, twisted thrown about, and it all sounds GREAT! At home, ya needs magical wall outlets, and special cable lifts, cus those floors can really distort stuff. High end home audio is rife with scams and BS. they record with wires that are rated for their function, get it home and the same music needs mystical BS. It keeps magazines like Stereophile and TAS in business, advertising all the nonsense. along with $27,000 CD players. Work some live events and you learn what it really is all about.

Live event/concert acoustics are very rarely to never as good as a very well done home theater room. Same with the speakers as very high end home theater speakers ie. Eggleston Works are more accurate and more revealing than live event speakers. I'm sure there are exceptions though. One thing live event speakers are designed for is playing absurdly loud.

So you could spend $100,000 in high end cables and never hear a thing different at live events. Recording studios are a different animal, such as the ones that have embraced Shunyata.
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post #13 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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The same equipment is used IN recording studios, its just harnessed in a permanent rack. BTW, ever see the interconnect cables used by guitarists for the stomp boxes? about 5.00 each and these boxes use wall wart power supplies of -OMG- 9 volt batteries.

Nobody is arguing the acoustics from the FOH (front of house) systems are not quite as "revealing" (love THAT term, hahahaha) as a home system HOWEVER, you need to learn HOW that concert audio is recorded. Each mic and or instrument pickup is fed via a signal splitter (usually a 1x3 transformer in some configuration) to the FOH mix desk, a second mix desk- on or close to the stage -that handles the monitor mix for the performers and a 3rd that is the recording system feed. This can be a multi-track recording system that will take the tracks and be used for a studio mix down or in some cases, field mixed then and there in a production truck into a stereo recording.

Keyboards, drum machines, and every kind of electronic instrument and effects system uses the same inexpensive and frequently unbalanced interconnects. Ever hear of Direct Boxes (D.I.)? These are usually passive but sometimes active unbalanced to balanced interfaces to directly feed an instrument into the mix desk. BTW, the next time you see a electronic keyboard or drum machine, look at the power cable; standard off-the-shelf IEC AC cables plugged into stage boxes

Studios also use passive patch bays for analog signals and processors. The wiring for these patch bays is quite dense and snugly bundled as all proper permanent racks enclosures are.

You really need to go to a studio in person and learn first hand what equipment and wiring is used in a studio environment. You will not find anything exotic, regardless of what some claim since they too have never been in the wiring and control area of a studio.
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post #14 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 08:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Live event/concert acoustics are very rarely to never as good as a very well done home theater room. Same with the speakers as very high end home theater speakers ie. Eggleston Works are more accurate and more revealing than live event speakers. I'm sure there are exceptions though. One thing live event speakers are designed for is playing absurdly loud.

So you could spend $100,000 in high end cables and never hear a thing different at live events. Recording studios are a different animal, such as the ones that have embraced Shunyata.

G-Rex, someone already made a reply fitting perfectly to you so I'll just quote it. vvv

"you are just making yourself look like an idiot, dont jump into conversations when you know nothing about the topic at hand."

"gain some humbleness dude. before you make yourself look even more stupid..."
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post #15 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Live event/concert acoustics are very rarely to never as good as a very well done home theater room. Same with the speakers as very high end home theater speakers ie. Eggleston Works are more accurate and more revealing than live event speakers. I'm sure there are exceptions though. One thing live event speakers are designed for is playing absurdly loud.

So you could spend $100,000 in high end cables and never hear a thing different at live events. Recording studios are a different animal, such as the ones that have embraced Shunyata.

Where did you read about the few studios in the entire world that use some Shunyata products to make a few of the hundreds or thousands of connections needed in a studio? Was it perhaps on Shunyata's website or in an advertisement? Are you aware of so called high end audio companies GIVING product to studios ect... Makes for great marketing my friend as you have pointed out.

Close your eyes and hear the truth!
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post #16 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 10:32 AM
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Gizmo, I commented on room/space acoustics and speakers. I did not discuss pro electronic components at all. No matter how good the elecronics are, with the acoustics not being optimal and live event speakers being optimized for playing loudly with as little distortion as possible at high levels... high end cables would not be called for on live events. These type of speakers are not designed to reveal the fine nuances that very high end home speakers do. In your world shielding, balanced runs and durability would be primary concern. So I believe my prior post is accurate. Once again, I am not discussing a recording/mastering studio.

Punkhd, go clean your room or better yet, browse the Sears catalogue and dream of your first system.
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post #17 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 11:16 AM
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AH BUT... What is it that we are actually listening to?

I'll elaborate. Isn't it all that equipment, recording, mixing, mastering and whatnot that create the final sound, the final product? And isn't this sound what artists and producers have sought for and approved? I assume you have answered "yes" to both of these.

Now, wouldn't we want to reproduce that sound as perfectly as possible? It's not the sound that comes from microphones, instruments and other equipment, it's the final product that may or may not sound like the original performers. I think for us consumers the "life" of the sound on a recording starts after the final mastering, not before it

P.S. All my cables are barely worth $50 :P
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post #18 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Yikes talk about parasitic cross contamination. Now that's what makes me squirm. What it could have been. Optimal vs adequate...someday some of you may see the light.

I do realize it would not be cost effective to wire that pro system with high end cables, but home systems are a different matter.

First your concern was the "cross contamination" (never heard that term used in any audio scenario. I believe you mean crosstalk) of all those signals and cable types. When you have had it accurately pointed out to you that this is the norm in live AND studio wiring complexity and proximity to each other, NOW you want to point to room acoustics in your living room as the defining factor.

Do you have any idea of the complexity and fine alignment of a stage system? I am not talking about about the Guitar center cabinets setting on the sides of a stage in a dive nightclub. I am talking about extremely expensive, time aligned, line array systems that run into the hundreds of thousand dollars and use elaborate computer software to adjust the angle, heights, phasing, delays etc to achieve incredible accuracy and gain before feed back in a concert venue.

Remember that given the volume these systems run at and the massive infrastructure of the signal paths (quantity, source and complexity) any extraneous noise or distortion will be easily discernable by a few thousand people. In addition, you forgot the part where the signals are fed directly to the recording media and the FOH system has zero effect.

You really need to learn more about how these systems and recording studios work before making 100% unfounded claims that are so easily disproved.
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post #19 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 12:55 PM
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The elephant in the room on all these types of silly pro vs Joe discussions is that some here seem to be working off the premise that live amplified events and recordings are typically great sound quality. Knowing how many engineers muck up live sound, that's hardly the bunch I'd go to for advice on getting the most from recordings (which they've also mostly mucked up) in my home system even if they are correct on the cable issue. Present company not included of course....no offense.
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post #20 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Live event/concert acoustics are very rarely to never as good as a very well done home theater room. Same with the speakers as very high end home theater speakers ie. Eggleston Works are more accurate and more revealing than live event speakers. I'm sure there are exceptions though. One thing live event speakers are designed for is playing absurdly loud.

So you could spend $100,000 in high end cables and never hear a thing different at live events. Recording studios are a different animal, such as the ones that have embraced Shunyata.


Shunyatatatatatata, perfect example of BS. Got any good sounding FUSES from some other BS company? Actually I record some live events, and when played back at home on my Legacy Whispers, there is a clarity that wasn't at the livie event, mostly the room boom of the live event. Local band with extreme TALENT BUT, the LIVE event is still superb sounding, and there is no such justification of wires that make insane claims as to SOUNDING BETTER!
The House of Blues Chicago, incredible LIVE sound! Not LOUD, just PERFECT definition and clarity. Some JBL stuff where my friend won the Guitar megeddon in 2006. That place sounds great, I mentioned in when I was there, and sure nuff, a few months later in one of the pro audio mags I get the guy got all kinds of awards from fellow pros for designing great stuff and setups at House of Blues around, and especially Chicago one called out specifically.. My ears WORK! Shunatatatata, is total BS. Believe what you want. Buy into what ever BS ya want to.
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post #21 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 01:00 PM
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Whoa,..shot across the bow

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post #22 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

The elephant in the room on all these types of silly pro vs Joe discussions is that some here seem to be working off the premise that live amplified events and recordings are typically great sound quality. Knowing how many engineers muck up live sound, that's hardly the bunch I'd go to for advice on getting the most from recordings (which they've also mostly mucked up) in my home system even if they are correct on the cable issue. Present company not included of course....no offense.

I've heard many live events that sounded horrible, local Stone Pony in Asbury Park....piss poor BOOM BOOM BOOM. Horrible never improves in all the years I have gone there. BOOM BOOM BOOM, even with a new board, the guys running it are clueless. BOOM BOOM BOOM. Horrible
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post #23 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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The FOH engineer does NOT handle the recording in a pro "recording for sale" scenario. They are totally independent. The house sound can suck yet the recording can be superb.
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post #24 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Gizmo, I commented on room/space acoustics and speakers. I did not discuss pro electronic components at all. No matter how good the elecronics are, with the acoustics not being optimal and live event speakers being optimized for playing loudly with as little distortion as possible at high levels... high end cables would not be called for on live events. These type of speakers are not designed to reveal the fine nuances that very high end home speakers do. In your world shielding, balanced runs and durability would be primary concern. So I believe my prior post is accurate. Once again, I am not discussing a recording/mastering studio.

Punkhd, go clean your room or better yet, browse the Sears catalogue and dream of your first system.

You really need to learn what audio is all about. so you have better sounding wires with revealing insulation. you have been reading too many Mickey Fremerisms, and TAS/Stereophile nonsense. Attend LIVE music, and as suggested go to a studio, and see good solid Neutriik, Switchcraft, DI boxes, cables that are durable, and spec'd for the function they are used for. No magic BS, none. Got any cable "elevators" in use to get rid of that floor distortion, incredible! And how many feet of wire does the signal go through before it finally gets onto the recording, then you get it home, and need magic 1 meter (in meters justifys the price, sounds EXOTIC) Learn some basic electronics and electrical stuff, cleanse your mind of the BS.
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post #25 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

The FOH engineer does NOT handle the recording in a pro "recording for sale" scenario. They are totally independent. The house sound can suck yet the recording can be superb.

Thats true and cables have nothing to do with it. (On either part)

FOH has to deal with the acoustics of wherever they happen to be playing on a given night. Its not easy getting indoor/outdoor, stadiums, Arenas to sound good in a matter of hours.
(Except for RUSH, they always seem to sound great live no matter where they play)

But yea, FOH and the recording truck have nothing in common except WHO they are recording.

Test,

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post #26 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 01:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

No matter how good the elecronics are, with the acoustics not being optimal and live event speakers being optimized for playing loudly with as little distortion as possible at high levels... high end cables would not be called for on live events. These type of speakers are not designed to reveal the fine nuances that very high end home speakers do. In your world shielding, balanced runs and durability would be primary concern. So I believe my prior post is accurate. Once again, I am not discussing a recording/mastering studio.

To make such blanket statement, you must be inexperienced with pro speakers. No wonder trash talking is all you've got left.

Quote:


Punkhd, go clean your room or better yet, browse the Sears catalogue and dream of your first system.

punk: a young inexperienced person : beginner, novice; especially : a young man


You keep digging that hole if it pleases you, G-Rex. By the way, it's up to your neck.
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post #27 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

Thats true and cables have nothing to do with it. (On either part)

FOH has to deal with the acoustics of wherever they happen to be playing on a given night. Its not easy getting indoor/outdoor, stadiums, Arenas to sound good in a matter of hours.
(Except for RUSH, they always seem to sound great live no matter where they play)

But yea, FOH and the recording truck have nothing in common except WHO they are recording.

Test,

RUSH had washing machines on stage in Tweeter Center in Camden N.J., that must be why. Same place when Kenny Wayne Shepperd played and he was so FRIGGIN LOUD, boom boom boom, ear splitting, and I like LOUD, but he was unlistenable, walked as far back into the open grass it was still over done, RUSH played same place, same system, nothing like what Kenny Wayne blew us out of the arena, why? O and Ted Nuggent played same venue with Kenny Wayne that night, TED N. just plain sucks, at any level...with his political rants, shooting arrows on stage, what a peckerhead, horrible music. At least I like Kenny Wayne Shepperd, but that night way way way too loud, then he pulls ear plugs out of his ears, that taught me, I always have ear plugs in my pocket and car for ANY live event, ALWAYS!
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post #28 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CEDUPZ View Post

RUSH had washing machines on stage in Tweeter Center in Camden N.J.,

Yes they did. Didn't you notice how clean their cloths were?

Seriously, I have been to a ton of Rush concerts and all though I may be biased, I find their Live FOH sound to be better than even the Live recordings of the shows.

Those guys have a road crew that's just amazing in all event types.

And uh no, RUSH does NOT use the same equipment as anyone else. They bring everything to each show.

Outside, indoors, small or large, they just sound good.

Test,

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post #29 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 03:30 PM
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But the speakers and stuff, they don't change that out do they? They must then have 3 days advance set up. And if they bring all their own stuff and people to run it, that's why! I did notice it was a clean listenable sound, not loud, not boom, not shrill vocals and everything easily heard. Plus they have their own team of people, who know what they gotta do, the in house guys just do the same **** for everyone, The Kenny Wayne had to one of the most unlistenable events I've been too. Not just bad, but PAINFUL loud, ridiculous. And the bass BOOM was so overwhelming, it's was TORTURE. I seen Rush 2 times at Tweeter in Camden, you are right, both times same precise sound.. they must have better sounding wires and fuses.
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post #30 of 668 Old 01-23-2011, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

To make such blanket statement, you must be inexperienced with pro speakers. No wonder trash talking is all you've got left.


punk: a young inexperienced person : beginner, novice; especially : a young man


You keep digging that hole if it pleases you, G-Rex. By the way, it's up to your neck.

I have nothing to dig out of, I can assure you....

What are you talking about, you are the top trash talker and most annoying person on AVS, as others have stated as well.

I will not be drawn in and stoop to your level. Debating topics with a young kid...what am I thinking. Run along and play, would you.
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