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post #1 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I have decided what to finish up my current install with. I currently am using my 2311CI to power all my speakers but when I do a new set of towers, I want to have some amps already in place. Im going to go with the XPA-2 for my towers, and then eventually an xpa-5 for the surrounds and center. My question is do you think the 2311 will run everything ok for the time being with the xpa-2 driving the towers?

Also are these decent shielded cables:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

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post #2 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 01:12 PM
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Yes, & yes
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post #3 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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So the digital interconnects are better... No need for standard shielded RCA's? Ive always been confused here as I skipped straight from the need for RCA's to HDMI. haha, big jump

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post #4 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Also are these decent shielded cables:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
I use those with my Carver 5 channel amp and they worked for me.

However I am going to purchase some SignalCable Analog 2's here shortly. I figure for as much as I have spent on the reciever and amp, I can put some extra cash into some nice interconnects and speaker wire as well.

Analog 2's will run you 49 bucks a pair for a 2 foot length, which while it seems expensive, let me tell you its just the tip of the iceberg lol...

Another company to look at is Blue Jeans Cable.

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post #5 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 01:52 PM
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Not to spoil your fun but, 2311s don't have pre outs. If that is what you are intending.

Sounds good!
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post #6 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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ive seen how deep that rabbit-hole goes. Dont even get me started, im a DIY guy anyways, just not when it comes to cables.

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post #7 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 02:02 PM
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Not to spoil your fun but, 2311s don't have pre outs. If that is what you are intending.
Oh snap...I didnt even think to check that, good catch.

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post #8 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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so then how would I be able to run an external amp? Or I just cant?

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post #9 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 02:08 PM
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so then how would I be able to run an external amp? Or I just cant?
You can only run a 2 channel amp in zone 2
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post #10 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Not to spoil your fun but, 2311s don't have pre outs. If that is what you are intending.
You just spoiled all of my fun. unless I sell the denon and start over again... which I just did 3 months ago.

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post #11 of 76 Old 03-08-2011, 03:24 PM
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There's a bright side to everything. If you have to get a new AVR, I'm seeing an interesting trend (I've been out of this game a long time); companies are "dumping" nice AVRs at bargain prices every time you look. Why? Because the HMDI game (alone!) of overnight improvements (1.3, 1.3a, 1.4, 1.4a, etc..) are making them feel like they're behind the bragging curve of repeater channel, 3D, or carrying ethernet, etc...

Just one silly, but never ending changing connection, is imho, making mfgrs dump (drop price, deplete stock and move on) these receivers much quicker than ever before. Therefore, you can find some great bargains on some AVRs with the pre-outs you're looking to use for your amps.

I actually see this as a phenomena unlike anything I've ever seen before. Design a new AVR, produce it, advertise and get it to market....and find that your version of the latest connections just became obsolete before you even sell 100 units .
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post #12 of 76 Old 03-09-2011, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbx123 View Post

There's a bright side to everything. If you have to get a new AVR, I'm seeing an interesting trend (I've been out of this game a long time); companies are "dumping" nice AVRs at bargain prices every time you look. Why? Because the HMDI game (alone!) of overnight improvements (1.3, 1.3a, 1.4, 1.4a, etc..) are making them feel like they're behind the bragging curve of repeater channel, 3D, or carrying ethernet, etc...

Just one silly, but never ending changing connection, is imho, making mfgrs dump (drop price, deplete stock and move on) these receivers much quicker than ever before. Therefore, you can find some great bargains on some AVRs with the pre-outs you're looking to use for your amps.

I actually see this as a phenomena unlike anything I've ever seen before. Design a new AVR, produce it, advertise and get it to market....and find that your version of the latest connections just became obsolete before you even sell 100 units .


Does the 3311 have pre-outs?

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post #13 of 76 Old 03-09-2011, 06:36 AM
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Does the 3311 have pre-outs?


Yes....if you look at pictures of the rear of the receiver you will see a section called pre-outs.....

Any receiver that has that section is good to go with external amps....

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post #14 of 76 Old 03-09-2011, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Does the 3311 have pre-outs?

Yeah just looked it up in the online manual... Crapfish, guess i need to figure out how to work a deal here on this...

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post #15 of 76 Old 03-09-2011, 03:40 PM
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If cost is a issue, go through the list of Pioneers, Yamahas and Onkyo ect and lok at the back of them. There are a few cheaper than the 3311 that have pre outs. Or, look for last years 3310 at a deap discount. If you don't need 3D, this would be the way to go!

Sounds good!
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post #16 of 76 Old 03-09-2011, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by karlsaudio View Post

If cost is a issue, go through the list of Pioneers, Yamahas and Onkyo ect and lok at the back of them. There are a few cheaper than the 3311 that have pre outs. Or, look for last years 3310 at a deap discount. If you don't need 3D, this would be the way to go!

Oh, good gosh, there are dozens for MUCH less than the 3311 that have pre-outs. I'll be doing the same thing, and I'm eying a couple of different Onkyo & Denon, which each have several models with pre-outs that are well under $700, and can actually be found for under $500 if you look around. Here's one example: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003N197CU/...SIN=B003N197CU Cart price is $550! And yes, supports 3D, etc...

And this $900 AVR? http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR806...8838386&sr=1-2 It was selling for $428 for over a week on the same site.

I have a few powerful amps, so this is absolutely the route I'll be going when I'm actually ready to buy. My AVR will be nothing more than a pre/pro with all the whistles and bells I'm concerned about "needing" of wanting for down the road.

On-line shopping skills......priceless .
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post #17 of 76 Old 03-10-2011, 07:26 AM
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Too bad about the 2311's lack of preamp output RCA jacks. Others have already mentioned to look for an older or used AVR with at least preamp outputs for the front speakers. That's good advice.

Are you still planning to build the ER18 MTM DIY towers we spoke about? The good news is your Denon 2311 is powerful enough to easily drive them. They are 4 ohm speakers, but they present an easy load for most decent AVRs such as yours. Dennis Murphy said he thought they could be easily driven by any amp or receiver that delivers an honest 50 wpc at 8 ohms when driving two channels. They can handle higher power, and sound great with 100-200 wpc, but they don't require it.

I don't know what other speakers you have in your system, but I'd hang on to the 2311 for now, and start looking, patiently, for an older receiver.

You can also save some cash by looking for used 2-channel amps on sites like Audigogon. I've done that twice with good results. Be patient, get an idea of what is a good price for you, and don't jump on the first item that looks suitable.
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post #18 of 76 Old 03-10-2011, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Too bad about the 2311's lack of preamp output RCA jacks. Others have already mentioned to look for an older or used AVR with at least preamp outputs for the front speakers. That's good advice.

Are you still planning to build the ER18 MTM DIY towers we spoke about? The good news is your Denon 2311 is powerful enough to easily drive them. They are 4 ohm speakers, but they present an easy load for most decent AVRs such as yours. Dennis Murphy said he thought they could be easily driven by any amp or receiver that delivers an honest 50 wpc at 8 ohms when driving two channels. They can handle higher power, and sound great with 100-200 wpc, but they don't require it.

I don't know what other speakers you have in your system, but I'd hang on to the 2311 for now, and start looking, patiently, for an older receiver.

You can also save some cash by looking for used 2-channel amps on sites like Audigogon. I've done that twice with good results. Be patient, get an idea of what is a good price for you, and don't jump on the first item that looks suitable.


Swerd, I am definitely still planning on the build. That is the whole reason I am wanting the pre outs to put them on a dedicated power source. If they can handle a clean 200 watts a side, thats what I want to give them Ive managed to figure out a way hopefully to just upgrade to a 3311 so that actually works out nicely. I bought my receiver from my local guy and he is trying to work with me on it since it is only been installed for about 3 weeks. If not, i will sell and find one online (im pretty good at that too) I cant go with an older receiver as I need 3d for my PJ. and I want to stick with denon as that is the 3dBD player I have and it is nice to have them run on the same remote

The reason I am going about all of this as ive noticed with having all of my drivers loaded up on the 2311 (all seven speakers, LCR bipoles and surrounds) that it is tugging a little too hard on the receiver. not to the point of breaking but some of the dynamics are getting lost in the music. part of that also has to do with cheaper speakers for the time being. pulling off the L/R's will help a lot I think, especially when they will be demanding more once the new towers are in.

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post #19 of 76 Old 03-10-2011, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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does presenting the 4 ohm er18 towers cause a blending issue with all the other drivers being 8 ohm? I would assume audyssey would fix this tho?

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post #20 of 76 Old 03-10-2011, 01:20 PM
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I believe you will most likely have volume issues between the two.

Sounds good!
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post #21 of 76 Old 03-10-2011, 01:28 PM
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A 3311 will certainly do the job and provide a way to add external amps. Sounds like a plan .

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does presenting the 4 ohm er18 towers cause a blending issue with all the other drivers being 8 ohm? I would assume audyssey would fix this tho?
I don't think it would be a problem. I run my 4 ohm MTM SongTowers (their impedance load is similar to your towers) along with 8 ohm center and rear channel speakers. I balanced their volumes manually by SPL meter without a problem. I don't have audyssey, but I assume it can do this too.
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post #22 of 76 Old 03-10-2011, 01:53 PM
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does presenting the 4 ohm er18 towers cause a blending issue with all the other drivers being 8 ohm? I would assume audyssey would fix this tho?
I don't see volume as being an issue, and I also don't see Audessey having anything to to do with the equation (from what little I understand of it).

What I do see is simply...an uneven draw from your amp(s). A 4ohm load pulls much more power than the 8ohm side, so this could cause issues. If the 4ohm are your fronts, then that would be best, as what is left (power-wise) in high demand situations will be left for the 8ohm set. Think of it as turning on your bathroom sink faucet (8ohm) and then turning on your bathtub faucet wide open (4ohm). Which one's visible lowering in pressure will be the most obvious? A simple, yet somewhat useful analogy.

And to be clear, I've been out of this game a long time, but I do know that uneven ohm loads on an amp could very well cause issues for older amps/AVRs. Check your manual, as there may even be a suggestion/mention of such a case, and that a 6ohm selection (if you have the ability to select) might be a better/safer default setting. I also remember that it's not always as easy as splitting the difference (as I just did in the example, lol), but unfortunately...I've forgotten more than I used to know and can't offer anything more except for the advice to check into it and be sure.
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post #23 of 76 Old 03-10-2011, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I cant tell you how many times I have tried to explain impedance to people and havent had a good analogy. Thank you for a perfect way of describing it!!! Understanding that the front (4 ohm) will be on their own amp, this will be a non isssue as far as differences in load. Im not terrified of balancing them out either. man. just need to start this process... Its just not quite time yet.

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post #24 of 76 Old 03-10-2011, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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But almost time

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post #25 of 76 Old 03-11-2011, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Man i cant believe i havent known about audiogon until now. That place has everything Ive ever wanted!!!! Thanks for helping me there, althought the WAF might soon be at an all time low...

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post #26 of 76 Old 03-11-2011, 10:56 AM
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I cant tell you how many times I have tried to explain impedance to people and havent had a good analogy. Thank you for a perfect way of describing it!!!
Well, it's not perfect, but yes, it does really, adequately describe it. When the resistance is lower (biggest faucet, 4ohm), the power takes that path.

I recall using a similar analogy from back in the day selling lower-mid-high end stuff. I think it was Bob Carver who explained his amps with a faucet analogy, but one with the analogy that his amps had a "reservoir" to pull from (headroom), unlike other amps who could only act on immediate demand and deliver the "immediate, yet limited" power available. It's actually a good, general analogy.

LOL, I had a personal letter from Bob Carver (back in the mid 80's that was a response to my letter of thanks to him and his team) that I actually framed and hung in my garage (I can hear the groans), but threw it out only a few years ago when coming to grips with my more...mature, older self . I wish I had kept it now.
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post #27 of 76 Old 03-11-2011, 11:13 AM
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Man i cant believe i havent known about audiogon until now. That place has everything Ive ever wanted!!!! Thanks for helping me there, althought the WAF might soon be at an all time low...
On Audiogon, a little discipline helps. When I was shopping for a 2-channel amp to add to my older Denon receiver, I looked for prices that were roughly $1/watt. So a used 2-channel 200 wpc amp (RMS watts at 8 ohms) cost me $400 plus shipping .

Learn to avoid the brands that are in fashion with the more-money-than-sense crowd. Nothing wrong with most of them, but they tend to be over priced. They usually are well-known names with lots of expensive machined aluminum on their front panels or cabinets.

There are a number of brands that are not crazy high-priced. Their products are very good, but they are no longer in fashion. Brands like B&K, ATI, SAE, Adcom, Parasound, Hafler, NAD, and others that I can't remember, are well made, perform well, and can be found used for reasonable prices. They usually sell quickly on audiogon. Some of these companies are out of business, but their amps live on.

Learn to be suspicious if there are many items for sale of the same make or model, but for no apparent reason they don't sell. They may be flawed. Marsh is one example I know of.
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post #28 of 76 Old 03-11-2011, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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On Audiogon, a little discipline helps. When I was shopping for a 2-channel amp to add to my older Denon receiver, I looked for prices that were roughly $1/watt. So a used 2-channel 200 wpc amp (RMS watts at 8 ohms) cost me $400 plus shipping .

Learn to avoid the brands that are in fashion with the more-money-than-sense crowd. Nothing wrong with most of them, but they tend to be over priced. They usually are well-known names with lots of expensive machined aluminum on their front panels or cabinets.

There are a number of brands that are not crazy high-priced. Their products are very good, but they are no longer in fashion. Brands like B&K, ATI, SAE, Adcom, Parasound, Hafler, NAD, and others that I can't remember, are well made, perform well, and can be found used for reasonable prices. They usually sell quickly on audiogon. Some of these companies are out of business, but their amps live on.

Learn to be suspicious if there are many items for sale of the same make or model, but for no apparent reason they don't sell. They may be flawed. Marsh is one example I know of.
I was looking at some of the B&K and NAD amps out there. I also found an NHT sa2 that would nicely replace my ma1 to give my sub a little more bump until full upgrade time.

I also got sucked into the tube world but quickly pulled myself back out one i saw the pricing on most of them heh....

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post #29 of 76 Old 03-11-2011, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Swerdlow View Post
On Audiogon, a little discipline helps. When I was shopping for a 2-channel amp to add to my older Denon receiver, I looked for prices that were roughly $1/watt. So a used 2-channel 200 wpc amp (RMS watts at 8 ohms) cost me $400 plus shipping .

Learn to avoid the brands that are in fashion with the more-money-than-sense crowd.
$1 per watt for one channel (total cost) is an even better goal to shoot for . And yes, it can be had.

But as far "fashionable brands"? I could not agree more with you. In fact, many of you are perhaps younger than Me (52), so you may not be familiar with actual..."age worthiness". Hell, I don't pretend to be myself, as I only purchased "X" amount of audio gear between the early 70's and mid 80's. Me? I have a dbx BX2 that should arrive tomorrow; it is a sister amp to one I've owned from "back in the day". 250x2...and as dependable as you can get (exact same...Audio Dynamics B-200 branded dbx BX2 amp) made the same year at the same place. My current 24yr old AD B-200 kicks nicely, and this amp is was purchased for $250 (inc S&H). But if you look/search/compare...you'll see that I'm paying a normal price for this amp. What you don't know...is that this amp has a great track record, despite most people not even knowing dbx even sold anything but high-line processors.

I learned a lot as a younger guy; don't waste your money with eye candy that your mind (hearing) cannot possibly process the difference between when compared to lower priced equipment. Many of you would be surprised. LOL, I used to subscribe to Stereophile mag....what a joke. Not only expensive, but a bunch of snobs doing their best to explain and complicate what your hearing isn't even capable (seriously!) of processing. Bob Carver was an "author' of such subscription. Maybe you don't appreciate his take..or his equipment..or dbx gear...and that's all totally cool with me....as I don;t care...and will continue to watch the countless generations walk into the same high-end game. And oh, I sued to sell this stuff ...back in the mid 80's.

But what I can all but guarantee you all (the youth here) is that you don't need to pay thousands of dollars to have a system that totally kicks butt. I LMFAO when I see a comment like, "If you're on a budget...just get this.." and the damn "this" costs $3,500! LOFL! A lot of pretenders here. But to be fair, there's also a lot of people with a lot of money.....but without a clue.

Guys, study human hearing ability....documented longevity on older stuff you might be interest in, etc... But do yourself a favor; don't buy some 20+yr old equipment that you're only buying because of a "name". I'm only "semi-comfy" with a well known (to me) dbx amp being delivered to me tomorrow, because I also have no idea how hard it's been ridden! Still, I at least have a reference to go from.
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post #30 of 76 Old 03-11-2011, 12:26 PM
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Yup, I paid 250 for a 125x5 watt Carver amp. I have seen a bunch of them go for around that. Mine works great and while I may step up to get more wattage, for right now it does me just fine .

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