Someone please help me with my sub localization issues :( - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 58 Old 12-30-2011, 10:15 PM
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^^ This looks like the native response of the sub as driven directly. It would be better to see the response as incorporated into the system, namely including the crossover in the AVR. Connect the REW signal into an analog input of the AVR to make the run, rather than directly into the sub.
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post #32 of 58 Old 12-30-2011, 10:29 PM
 
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...and please post the REW .mdat file(s)...
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post #33 of 58 Old 12-30-2011, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

^^ This looks like the native response of the sub as driven directly. It would be better to see the response as incorporated into the system, namely including the crossover in the AVR. Connect the REW signal into an analog input of the AVR to make the run, rather than directly into the sub.

This is going through the AVR, left input via RCA, mains disconnected.

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...and please post the REW .mdat file(s)...

I have that file saved but not sure how to post it
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post #34 of 58 Old 12-30-2011, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

Both my receiver and amp x-over is set at 60hz

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Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

This is going through the AVR, left input via RCA, mains disconnected.

Then something is amiss. There is no evidence of the AVR's low-pass filter. When you use the AVR input, it has to not be set for "direct" or "analog bypass." The signal has to use the A-D converter so that the DSP can apply the crossover filter.
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post #35 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Then something is amiss. There is no evidence of the AVR's low-pass filter. When you use the AVR input, it has to not be set for "direct" or "analog bypass." The signal has to use the A-D converter so that the DSP can apply the crossover filter.

I'm not sure how to check for this possible issue. I have a "Direct" button on the front of my AVR, I can select "Direct", "Pure Direct", or "Off" I believe, either way, I don't have any of the "Direct" settings enabled. The front of my AVR says analog, but no analog bypass. Any recommendations? Reciever is Marantrz SR5003.

Also, if someone could instruct me how post those .mdat files, I would love to share the ones I save
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post #36 of 58 Old 01-02-2012, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

I'm not sure how to check for this possible issue. I have a "Direct" button on the front of my AVR, I can select "Direct", "Pure Direct", or "Off" I believe, either way, I don't have any of the "Direct" settings enabled. The front of my AVR says analog, but no analog bypass. Any recommendations? Reciever is Marantrz SR5003.

Yes, you do not want to be using Source Direct or Pure Direct modes. If you are feeding the L channel of one of the stereo analog inputs, and it finds its way to the Subwoofer output, then some sort of redirection is happening, and that means the DSP is operating. The plot is from the Sub output, right?

Do you have the speakers all set to "small"? Check the Manual Setup section of the owners manual.

If you cannot find the error, you'll need to give more details on how things are set up.

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Also, if someone could instruct me how post those .mdat files, I would love to share the ones I save

Compress the mdat file into zip format. Scroll down to "Additional Options" while editing your post. Click "Manage Attachments," then attach the zip file.
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post #37 of 58 Old 01-03-2012, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The plot is from the Sub output, right?
Yes. Mains have also been disconnected for the test.

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Do you have the speakers all set to "small"?
Yes, all speakers are set to small.

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
If you cannot find the error, you'll need to give more details on how things are set up.
I have my SR5003 reciever, "component SW out" to subwoofer amp which then connects to the sub across the room via 12ga speaker wire. For the test, I'm running a PC laptop with SoundBlaster USB sound card. RShack meter "out" to soundcard "in", "out" of sound card into left channel of front AUX input on receiver via RCA cable. Mic mouth is about 6-7 feet from "mouth" of subwoofer cab.

Do you want details on how I did the test in REW or will the .mdat file tell you that?

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Compress the mdat file into zip format. Scroll down to "Additional Options" while editing your post. Click "Manage Attachments," then attach the zip file.
Done

 

30hz-150hz_livingroom_sub.zip 294.2783203125k . file
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post #38 of 58 Old 01-03-2012, 06:18 PM
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Could you put the TV/mains on the left wall of your diagram, the wall leading to the entrance, leaving all else the same? That way your seating position would not be right next to the sub... Short of moving something around I am not sure you'll be able to really fix this issue.

I do agree the sub's FR plot looks a little fishy; I would also expect a sharper roll-off.

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post #39 of 58 Old 01-03-2012, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the placement advice but I would rather not move anything. I really want to make sure my gear is setup properly and I didn't miss anything in setting up the receiver before I tackle some of the larger suggestions.
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post #40 of 58 Old 01-03-2012, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

I really want to make sure my gear is setup properly and I didn't miss anything in setting up the receiver before I tackle some of the larger suggestions.

Usually you adjust your setup after you optimize the room. You're kind of going about this backwards, and as people have said, there are limits to what you can adjust.

Feel free to leave your room as is, but don't expect miracles, either.

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post #41 of 58 Old 01-03-2012, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

Thanks for the placement advice but I would rather not move anything. I really want to make sure my gear is setup properly and I didn't miss anything in setting up the receiver before I tackle some of the larger suggestions.

There's a limit to how much you can tweak before you realize moving the sub is better. Trust me I've tried lol

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

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post #42 of 58 Old 01-03-2012, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. I do understand that I can only do so much tweaking before other options need to be considered but I just want to make sure that my current gear is setup/adjusted/calibrated properly before any room alterations or other subs are considered.

Some other posters mention that my graph looks a bit odd for having a gradual roll off when I technically have 2 x-overs in line, which should make the roll off pretty steep from what I have read. I would like to see what they think
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post #43 of 58 Old 01-03-2012, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are a few more graphs I took with different XO settings...

This graph has both the AVR and sub amp XO's set at 60hz...



This graph has 80hz XO's...

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post #44 of 58 Old 01-03-2012, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

I have my SR5003 reciever, "component SW out" to subwoofer amp which then connects to the sub across the room via 12ga speaker wire. For the test, I'm running a PC laptop with SoundBlaster USB sound card. RShack meter "out" to soundcard "in", "out" of sound card into left channel of front AUX input on receiver via RCA cable. Mic mouth is about 6-7 feet from "mouth" of subwoofer cab.

If you're game, I'd like to strip things down a bit, and measure the direct electrical response of the 5003.

1) Turn off any Audyssey modes. Turn off surround modes. Do not use "Direct" modes. Plain stereo, bass management turned on.

2) Feed the soundcard output to Aux 1 (on front panel), either channel.

3) Connect the 5003 SW output to soundcard input. Adjust volume to get decent REW readings.

4) Run REW sweep. It should show the 60 Hz LPF response.

If the 60 Hz filter looks right, then you can re-connect the SW output to the sub amp, and again measure the SPL with the RS meter. The same general filter shape should result. But if it looks like your original plot, there's something odd happening.
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post #45 of 58 Old 01-04-2012, 12:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Roger, here is the sweep from the SW out only, followed by a graph with both (AVR only and actual subwoofer response) overlapped. Let me know what you think.


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post #46 of 58 Old 01-04-2012, 06:11 AM
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Been following this for purpose of possibly picking up some tips/info (no expert here). Not trying to derail the progress, but curious why one would set their sub x-over to 60Hz? I have been under the impression that receiver LFE LPF should be at 120Hz and sub to max x-over (or disabled)?

For me (if I was off doing this by myself), it would be interesting to see a sweep of sub only from 10-200Hz with Audyssey off, receiver LFE LPF at max, sub x-over max or disabled, and fronts x-over at max (200Hz or whatever receiver goes to), and then another sweep with only change being receiver main x-over at 80hz, in order to see overall sub response in room with x-overs out of the mix, and then with one added in.
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post #47 of 58 Old 01-04-2012, 06:11 AM
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There is something wrong with AVR settings here. Sub output should go down sharply after crossover frequency, I do not see it here. Are you sure that receiver has bass management enabled?
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post #48 of 58 Old 01-04-2012, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

Been following this for purpose of possibly picking up some tips/info (no expert here). Not trying to derail the progress, but curious why one would set their sub x-over to 60Hz? I have been under the impression that receiver LFE LPF should be at 120Hz and sub to max x-over (or disabled)?

For me (if I was off doing this by myself), it would be interesting to see a sweep of sub only from 10-200Hz with Audyssey off, receiver LFE LPF at max, sub x-ver max or disabled, and fronts x-over at max (200Hz? or whatever receiver goes to), and then another with only change being receiver main x-over at 80hz, in order to see overall sub response in room with x-overs out of the mix, and then with one added in.

Sub is designed for very low frequencies only. With good speakers, it should be only engaged under 40Hz or so. Since its filter is not a brick wall type, 60Hz crossover point is very reasonable, it will get down -3 dB at that point.
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post #49 of 58 Old 01-04-2012, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Sub is designed for very low frequencies only. With good speakers, it should be only engaged under 40Hz or so.

<=40Hz? Many discussions on AVS on the topic of crossing the sub....IE letting the sub do it's job (even with "good speakers"). But that's a whole nother discussion right?
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post #50 of 58 Old 01-04-2012, 07:44 AM
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Ok, back to muck things up more...took a look at the Marantz user manual and I am further befuddled with Chris's settings (unless I missed something in the manual). Here's a snapshot of manual speaker/sub settings. I see no setting for LPF of LFE signal, just x-over setting for the fronts. The only mention to LFE is in the note where it says "LFE signals during playback of Dolby Digital or DTS will be played through the subwoofer" which I interpret as whatever LFE content there is will automatically be routed to the sub.

Now, if Chris has his fronts crossed at 60Hz, and his sub (at the sub) crossed at 60Hz, what happens to LFE signal >60Hz. It's lost right? So, if I've read this correctly, I still don't understand why the 60Hz x-over at the sub??

Anyway, thought I'd point this out in the manual if it's of any help with diagnosis. I am used to seeing both main crossover setting AND LPF of LFE being adjustable, at least in Onkyo/Denon units.

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post #51 of 58 Old 01-05-2012, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

I see no setting for LPF of LFE signal, just x-over setting for the fronts.

Irrelevant. We aren't sending the AVR a multichannel input anyway, we are sending it left channel analog audio. The test he was asked to do I performed on my Marantz SR4002 a while back. If his unit were operating properly, the result curve should resemble that in my post here.

OP, can you post what your curve looks like when you change the graph limits to be similar to what mine were? Are you sure you are showing plots of SPL and not phase? Have you applied any correction curve for your RS meter?
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post #52 of 58 Old 01-05-2012, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

Now, if Chris has his fronts crossed at 60Hz, and his sub (at the sub) crossed at 60Hz, what happens to LFE signal >60Hz. It's lost right?

Not all of it. It begins to roll off above 60hz, but it's not a brick wall, as stated before.

It depends on your speakers and room, but 60hz isn't unheard of. I get localization issues with my sub if it's above 80hz, but I have speakers that dig down to 35hz. There's no need for my sub to do much above 80hz (where my mains work fine), so I set the crossover at that point and let the sub do the low end heavy lifting.

I know there are some instances where a 120hz crossover would be beneficial, but it definitely isn't the norm.

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post #53 of 58 Old 01-05-2012, 10:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

There is something wrong with AVR settings here. Sub output should go down sharply after crossover frequency, I do not see it here. Are you sure that receiver has bass management enabled?

The frequency scale stretches (only to 150hz) the graph a bit horizontally, perhaps more so than you're used to seeing.

cheers,

AJ
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post #54 of 58 Old 01-07-2012, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a shot of the same graph with a larger scale. Also, to note, Audyssey set my sub phase to 180 deg in the receiver, and REW shows my phase at 173 deg or so but my amp phase is set to "norm" and not "rev". I'm pretty darn sure my wires are hooked up correctly, I guess I can should double check that even though if I switch my amp phase to "rev", there's no noticeable change..

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post #55 of 58 Old 01-12-2012, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

Here is a shot of the same graph with a larger scale.

With the rise toward 30Hz, this graph clearly has the influence of Audyssey in it. As Roger said before, start from the beginning. Turn Audyssey off, regular Stereo mode which keeps bass management on, sweep to AVR sub-out. Once that looks right we move on to taking sweeps of sub and mains, running it as a system, etc.

Get it working right at a basic level, only then put the pieces together and only after that works move on to making it work right with all the bells/whistles/tweaks.
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post #56 of 58 Old 01-12-2012, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post


With the rise toward 30Hz, this graph clearly has the influence of Audyssey in it. As Roger said before, start from the beginning. Turn Audyssey off, regular Stereo mode which keeps bass management on, sweep to AVR sub-out. Once that looks right we move on to taking sweeps of sub and mains, running it as a system, etc.

Get it working right at a basic level, only then put the pieces together and only after that works move on to making it work right with all the bells/whistles/tweaks.

And do not dorget to measure THD of the sub too.
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post #57 of 58 Old 01-12-2012, 11:18 AM
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Where's the mouth of the sub? Turn in towards one of the walls and place some owens 703 or similar between it and the wall. If localization is due to mechanical noise from the sub/driver this may help. I've gone through similar issues with sub localization (three different brands even with x-overs of 50hz) notably when subs are placed to the sides or rear of the room and the only useful remedy, what has been already mentioned, is symmetrical placement of another sub or place your existing sub up front.

I presume you've already sat in the listening position while running sine waves of various frequencies to determine at what frequency localization becomes an issue. Then again, running test after test is not and never will be a remedy.
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post #58 of 58 Old 02-29-2012, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post

With the rise toward 30Hz, this graph clearly has the influence of Audyssey in it. As Roger said before, start from the beginning. Turn Audyssey off, regular Stereo mode which keeps bass management on, sweep to AVR sub-out. Once that looks right we move on to taking sweeps of sub and mains, running it as a system, etc.

Get it working right at a basic level, only then put the pieces together and only after that works move on to making it work right with all the bells/whistles/tweaks.

I might do another run today with Audessey off, in Stereo and AVR sub-out like always and see what that looks like, but I doubt it. I'm starting to believe that it's just the nature of the beast (sub placement), and not the rest of the gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

And do not dorget to measure THD of the sub too.

How do I measure THD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Where's the mouth of the sub? Turn in towards one of the walls and place some owens 703 or similar between it and the wall. If localization is due to mechanical noise from the sub/driver this may help. I've gone through similar issues with sub localization (three different brands even with x-overs of 50hz) notably when subs are placed to the sides or rear of the room and the only useful remedy, what has been already mentioned, is symmetrical placement of another sub or place your existing sub up front.

I presume you've already sat in the listening position while running sine waves of various frequencies to determine at what frequency localization becomes an issue. Then again, running test after test is not and never will be a remedy.

The mouth of the sub is facing the rear wall (corner). I've turned it so the mouth is pointing at the couch and the volume is lower but still localize-able. I have also run sine waves and it seems like most of the audible frequencies can be heard coming from the sub. I think I just might end up getting rid of the sub or do another setup :-/

I won't be watching as many movies up here when I get the theater done but still would like a well balanced room.
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