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post #451 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

You want to claim I have not talked about the topic and am reluctant to do so, you need to get up much earlier in the morning.

Amir, to be clear, I’m not saying you haven’t talked about the topic. I never claimed otherwise. You’ve talked plenty and often about your ability to distinguish and discriminate between two S/PDIF cables because of the jitter effects you say you hear and I’ve quoted you several times in that regard. I agreed you are very verbose on the subject.

What I haven’t seen or heard from you, is any good evidence or data that you actually DO or have DONE this witnessed ABX which most objectivists (as you call yourself) would agree would be a test of your claims.

As you can't, haven't, or won't do this witnessed ABX, I agree it stalled at the rhetoric level and you are at full stride there.
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post #452 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by audiophilesavant View Post
So then, if the subject of audibility is off the table, what about your concerns with the M&M blind tests.
I asked certain questions earlier that remain unanswered.

Do we agree that if we are performing a blind test, there is a region of uncertainty? I couldn't get dlarsen to answer that question no matter how much I tried. Anyone else want to take a shot at it? We are stalled otherwise.

P.S. I just noticed that you changed your post above. I really am at the end of my patience with these word games. I know you are leading me on but please, at least do it with a straight face.

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post #453 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm
I am not aware of blind testing relative to cable differences.
What??? What about your many posts on how you tested and detected difference in S/PDIF cables due to jitter? Do I need to find and quote you on all of those ‘tests’ you conducted by yourself in isolation?

Not aware of any blind testing relative to cable differences. Hogwash.

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Originally Posted by amirm
I couldn't get dlarsen to answer that question no matter how much I tried.
Again, Hogwash. I noted it required a YES/NO human discrimination threshold. Many times. I asked you if you thought YES/NO/MAYBE was better. YOU didn't ever answer that.
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post #454 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 06:45 PM
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Again, Hogwash. I noted it required a YES/NO human discrimination threshold. Many times. I asked you if you thought YES/NO/MAYBE was better. YOU didn't ever answer that.
I clarified the question for you half a dozen times and as here, you either pretend or truly don't understand the question.

So once more, your output is binary. Either you hear a difference or you do not. There is no "maybe."

I am asking you and this is the last time I do that: is there a condition under which you hear two samples where you are unsure whether you should vote yes or no.

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post #455 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dlarsen
Do you want to change the rules and have it be YES/NO/MAYBE? Like that will 'fix' or make better DB or ABX testing? Do you disagree with using the repeatable discrimination of human (ANY human) perception as a threshold?
So, you don't like the requirement of YES/NO kryponite. It's part of the rules of the game. You HAVE to be able to discriminate using your human perceptions and distill it to YES/NO. A maybe won't do.

Again Amir, just state flat out that you don't believe that ABX is valid, or that you don't accept repeatable human perception as a threshold and it's done. You can command the rhetoric front then. Just don't be surprised when people choke when you call yourself an objectivest.

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Originally Posted by amir
is there a condition under which you hear two samples where you are unsure whether you should vote yes or no.
Yes. Probably. It doesn't matter and is beside the point. Maybe isn't and shouldn't be a valid choice. Maybe isn't making a call. Maybe isn't an option for most ANY test.
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post #456 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
P.S. I just noticed that you changed your post above. I really am at the end of my patience with these word games. I know you are leading me on but please, at least do it with a straight face.
At the time I edited my post - to add your quote from the thread to which you referred all of us us stating that in your judgment no amount of debate would resolve the issue of audibility of jitter - no one had replied to it. My post clearly indicates that I edited the post at 6.53 pm. Since you didn't respond to my post until 7:30 pm, 37 minutes after I edited my post, I don't know what you are complaining about.
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post #457 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 06:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Why should it?
Because I think it should.

Now, how about filling in the blanks made by dlarsen? It will educate other readers.
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post #458 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm
I am asking you and this is the last time I do that: is there a condition under which you hear two samples where you are unsure whether you should vote yes or no.
Yes.

Amir, as you seem to take issue with making a YES/NO commitment on a test, I suppose you could choose SURE/UNSURE in its place. Would that make ABX testing more to your liking?
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post #459 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Do we agree that if we are performing a blind test, there is a region of uncertainty
Gee, I don't know. I'm no expert in blind testing methodology. In the few blind tests I have participated in, for me some differences were obvious, some less obvious and some non-existent. And I wasn't right every time. I will say I never experienced any undue angst voting yes or no. I just responded as honestly as I could.

Now that I have fallen into your trap, perhaps you would like to explain how this relates to the M&M tests.
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post #460 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dlarsen View Post
So, you don't like the requirement of YES/NO kryponite.
Of course I do. I told you those are the only choices. Then gave you a test as to whether you can comfortably and clearly at all times, and without second thought, make one of those choices.

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Again Amir, just state flat out that you don't believe that ABX is valid, or that you don't accept repeatable human perception as a threshold and it's done. You can command the rhetoric front then. Just don't be surprised when people choke when you call yourself an objectivest.
Let's see. I have said that we have used blind testing to develop products that have shipped in billions of devices. I have said that I selected the audio lines in my business that use blind testing as a component of their development. I have said that our video codec was selected for HD DVD/BD because of blind testing. None of that seems to be enough for you to accept for anything relative to my position here?

What you don't understand is that every tool has limitations. It you don't understand the limitations, you are likely to use them incorrectly. I use, practice and believe in blind testing.

So your confusion that I am subjectivist is wrong, wrong, wrong. I practiced it, I lived it. It is those experiences that have taught me things that you sitting at the end of a keyboard, can't possibly appreciate. You think it is all black and white and "clear." Well, it isn't. I am trying to explain why it isn't. But you can't be patient. You can't stay on point. You can't be cooperative and have a discussion. You have to turn this thread into "let's damn Amir."

You demand simple answers. I asked a simple question. Did you answer it? No. This is what you gave me:

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Yes. Probably. It doesn't matter and is beside the point. Maybe isn't and shouldn't be a valid choice. Maybe isn't making a call. Maybe isn't an option for most ANY test.
First it is a yes. Then it is a probably. I said it is hard to get a straight answer out of you. You said no way. I ask the question again. Did you give a straight answer? Clearly not.

Then you say Maybe is not an answer for any test as if I said it was. I specifically asked you to stay within the confines of a Yes/No answer. I said there is no "maybe." You now are lecturing me why there shouldn't be a maybe answer? Do you even know what it is that we are agreeing with, and what we are not?

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post #461 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by audiophilesavant View Post
Gee, I don't know. I'm no expert in blind testing methodology.
I am not asking a methodology question. I am asking a human and personal question.

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In the few blind tests I have participated in, for me some differences were obvious, some less obvious and some non-existent.
When it was less obvious, what did you do then? What went on in your mind as you were deciding to vote one way or the other?

What could have helped the situation not be ambiguous?

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Now that I have fallen into your trap, perhaps you would like to explain how this relates to the M&M tests.
There is no trap. It is a journey of discovery.

ABX tests were used to detect small differences in M&M. We are still exploring the limits of that kind of testing in detecting small differences. And we are doing it one step at a time because if I just gave the answer, it wouldn't be accepted as being worth anything. I am hoping that by finding what we agree with each other along the way, we will make some progress.

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post #462 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post
Because I think it should.
Well, then think yourself to whatever answer you are seeking! .

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post #463 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
There is no trap. It is a journey of discovery.
Let's be honest. This is no journey of discovery. You are asking leading questions to which you know the answer in an effort to lead us to the conclusion you would like us to accept. It is why you insist on asking the questions, complain when people don't answer them to your satisfaction, yet ignore questions ask of you or answer questions with questions. Cut to the chase. What is your position? Whether we accept it or not depends on how well you defend it.
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post #464 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by audiophilesavant View Post
Let's be honest.
Really? On AVS? In a debate thread? You must be joking.

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This is no journey of discovery. You are asking leading questions to which you know the answer in an effort to lead us to the conclusion you would like us to accept.
You want me be honest. Let me test you first. Have any of your questions fallen in the above category?

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It is why you insist on asking the questions, complain when people don't answer them to your satisfaction, yet ignore questions ask of you or answer questions with questions.
As if any of you are acting differently. Take the high road for a minute, stop talking about me and stay on topic, and then I will listen to you. When almost every post is like this one, attacking me as a person rather than discussing the topic, I don't for a moment acknowledge that you have good intentions to have a discussion. At least I have been contributing data, references and answers. What has been you all's contributions? When you start to contribute as I have, then you can give me lessons on how I should behave. Until then, it is a mix of laying traps for me and complaining.

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Cut to the chase. What is your position? Whether we accept it or not depends on how well you defend it.
Not interested in whether you will or will not accept my position. Should we end now then since you are unwilling to go down the path?

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post #465 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post
The literature on blind listening tests used to test for small differences such as those introduced by lossy codecs suggests that the analysis be based on a multipoint impairment scale rather than a binary Yes/No scoring.
This is true. One problem with judging codecs based only on whether there is any impairment or not (e.g. ABX) is that all of codecs being evaluated may cause audible impairments. A simple pass/fail critera says fail them all. But that isn't what we want to know. We want to know which codec(s) impair the sound quality the least. So, then the use of an alternative DBT methodlogy such as ABC/hr becomes relevant.

ABX and ABC/hr are not the only valid DBT methodologies. There are actually a number of different common and valid DBT methodolgies. It is up to the experimenter to pick the one that suits his experiment's needs the best.

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This addresses the problem Amir has raised concerning what happens when the audibility of the variable under test is close to the transition point of the comparator.
What a convoluted way to say "The parameter being tested is near its threshold of audibility! ;-)

I suspect that the statement above is trying to cover too many different situations atone time. If the variable under test is close to the transition point (which is a characteristic of the listener, not the comparator) then a test like ABX is very good because of its simplicity and inherent sensitivity.

ABC/Hr is generally a poorer choice because of its greater complexity and the fact that it does not force the choice that we are interested in founding out about.
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post #466 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I am not asking a methodology question. I am asking a human and personal question.
No, you are asking a methodology question. "Region of uncertainty" is a term of art in the science of blind listening tests. Experts in the field are the appropriate party to provide the answer.

To the extent it is a "human and personal question, I gave you a human and personal response.

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When it was less obvious, what did you do then? What went on in your mind as you were deciding to vote one way or the other?
I decided whether I heard a difference or not and voted accordingly.

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What could have helped the situation not be ambiguous?
I never used the word ambiguous. You are putting words in my mouth. I said less obvious.

In situations were the difference was less obvious, it was less obvious. It was what it was.
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post #467 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 08:47 PM
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Not interested in whether you will or will not accept my position. Should we end now then since you are unwilling to go down the path?
Should we end now since you are unwilling to state what your position is?
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post #468 of 469 Old 04-30-2011, 08:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I am asking you and this is the last time I do that: is there a condition under which you hear two samples where you are unsure whether you should vote yes or no.
Then the answer becomes no. I thought you knew.
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post #469 of 469 Old 05-01-2011, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Dlarsen, Krab's request was to discuss the M&M report.
Not quite. It was a request to discuss the supposed 'debunking' of the M&M report -- specifically, spectrographic data posted on WBF by Bruce of Puget Sounds

And I see you once again, despite already having been called to account on this very point, referred to a strawman 'all gear sound the same' camp, though no such camp exists.

It does appear that Arny has posted a few on-topic posts since my last post, for which I give thanks, but otherwise, this thread looks to me like more of the same old off-topic huffing and puffing from all.
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