Antimode 8033 vs Room treatments - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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My room is 10'x12'x8' with two solid walls and one with windows and one with folding closet doors. There is quite abit of funiture in the room also. I was wondering if I should buy a Antimode 8033 to tame my bass (SVS PB-10 and a Onkyo 606, the audsessy does not filter the bass at all), or should I invest the $350 into room treatments, such as Bass traps? Which would give the most benefit? Thanks for any help.
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post #2 of 27 Old 09-13-2011, 12:09 PM
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With DIY traps you may do some good with $350, but my guess is the Antimode will provide a larger sonic increase in the bass region for the money. It takes a lot of traps to deal with a null (easier to move the listening position), and Antimode should tame the peaks (and help with the nulls). That is not to say some traps might not help the higher frequencies in your room, particularly if it is fairly live (reflective, reverberant).

IMO - Don

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post #3 of 27 Old 09-14-2011, 05:24 PM
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Arn't there loudness level and crossover adjusters on the subwoofer? Why not turn that down to tame? There are articles on how to incorporate the subwoofer, here is one of them:
http://www.hometheaterblog.com/homet...bwoofer-setup/
Another: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...-setup-secrets
Once you have it set-up right, there might be no need for anything else.
But it takes some listening time and some good musical material (contrabass, chelli, voices) to do it. This one has plenty of bass and shows that your sub blends in:
http://www.amazon.com/Bottesini-Fant...6049295&sr=1-3
If your system sounds good and realistic for music, it will be also quite good for movies, i.e.explosions, without blowing the roof off...
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post #4 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replys. one thing about the room is that I have no space to locate my sub anywhere else except for where it is, in the front corner to the right of my system. It actually sounds pretty good except for some sound bouncing off the rear wall (the wall behind the listener). I'm thinking maybe get an Antimode then see how it sounds and possibly get some rear wall bass traps later. I don't think I've got a huge problem with the room so the Antimode might really help alot. Anyone that has any experience with the Antimode I would like to hear what you think.
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post #5 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 08:45 AM
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You really have to measure your bass response to find out all the problems. The best solution is a combination of EQing/treatments/multiple sub(s) placed properly.

Measurements will tell you want you need and you can choose how far you want to go. If you have Nulls, its impossible to fix them with EQing or bass trap solutions. maybe Helmlotz resonantor designed specific to a certain frequency might have a chance but the $$/performance ratio is just silly bad.


FWIW, AntiMode waste of $$ for me, I owned it, tested it and sold it. It has very, very limited control and for less $$$ a miniDSP is a better EQing device for controlling/shaping the bass response in room. Of course, I also have multiple subs, I have my own bass curve I like so Im not a fan of any black box that tells us nothing about the response.

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post #6 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 10:06 AM
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Why not put some temporary blanket on the rear wall and see whether dampening the rear wall (where it bounces off) will help. If it does, you come up with a more lasting/prettier solution like curtains or panels.
If you have too much bass, dampening seems to be the better way rather than equalizing
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post #7 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

... a miniDSP is a better EQing device for controlling/shaping the bass response in room ...

You program it using the tie-in with REqW?

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #8 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 11:38 AM
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^^^ You can, yes... Penngray, how easy is the miniDSP to use for novices? Not you and me, your average hi-fi nut? I am curious as to your impressions.

On the whole damping issue, abosrbers tend to work well at higher frequencies, e.g. over 100 - 200 Hz. It takes a lot of material in the LF range. The OP seems to be talking about two issues: HF reflections off the rear wall, and LF issues related to room modes. A blanket/absorption will help the reflections, but a few panels may not do much for the bass. Not to say they won't make a big sonic difference, just not in the low bass.

Simple primer: Peaks tend to be lower in magnitude than nulls are deep. Walls and such are not perfect reflectors, and other things in the room tend to abosrb some of the energy, diminishing the peaks. Then, EQ can usually tame them rather nicely. Nulls happen due to cancellations in the sound waves and can be very deep and thus much harder to control. Theoretically bass traps or diffusion is effective on nulls just as on peaks, but in practice because their magnitude is greater nulls are harder to control. IME, peaks rarely exceed 10 dB or so and almost never 20 dB; a 20 - 30 dB null is not uncommon. Remember each 10 dB is a factor of 10 in power so that is a very large difference.

HTH - Don

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post #9 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 11:55 AM
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Going back to the original question, you should do both. I don't mean you have to use an 8033, or RW, etc. although I noted a definite improvement with one.
I have an AM as well as Audyssey, and they do play well together. I ran AM first, then Audyssey. This way the Audyssey treats the sub and 8033 as one unit, basically the subwoofer response. I would think another system (Pioneer's MCACC, Yamaha, etc. ) might work well the same way, but do not know that for a fact. I also have room treatments.

Room treatments do help, not only with regards to reducing resonance, but also damping to cut reflections at higher frequencies, as needed.

There are many things to consider (that are often overlooked) with regards to the 'room' and where your speakers are placed within it.
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post #10 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videoaddikt View Post

Going back to the original question, you should do both. I don't mean you have to use an 8033, or RW, etc. although I noted a definite improvement with one.
I have an AM as well as Audyssey, and they do play well together. I ran AM first, then Audyssey. This way the Audyssey treats the sub and 8033 as one unit, basically the subwoofer response. I would think another system (Pioneer's MCACC, Yamaha, etc. ) might work well the same way, but do not know that for a fact. I also have room treatments.

Room treatments do help, not only with regards to reducing resonance, but also damping to cut reflections at higher frequencies, as needed.

There are many things to consider (that are often overlooked) with regards to the 'room' and where your speakers are placed within it.

Have you tried reversing the order. Audyssey then animode?
This way antimode sees audyssey and sun as one flat response and antimode will iron out what little is left?
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post #11 of 27 Old 09-15-2011, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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So without taking actual room measurements it would be hard to tell whether the Antimode or bass traps would do best for the money ($350)? Right now I'm not that worried about high freq. reflections, I'm concerned right now with the LFE. I know I'm getting some peaks or nulls in the lower freq. I was just looking for some opinions from people who have actually used a Antimode and/or possible some bass traps. Thanks again for the replies.
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post #12 of 27 Old 09-16-2011, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

Have you tried reversing the order. Audyssey then animode?
This way antimode sees audyssey and sun as one flat response and antimode will iron out what little is left?


I have not tried that. I know on the HTS forum response tests were run on the AM and that's what was concluded. Others like, Kal Rubinson from Stereophile gave similar advice with regards to the sequence.

All I know is for me, the 8033 made a noticeable improvement and Audyssey has not compromised that.

Get a Rivesaudio demo and cal disk, it is a real education in what bass is doing (or not doing) in your room. The music segments are also very revealing.
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post #13 of 27 Old 09-16-2011, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWG707 View Post

So without taking actual room measurements it would be hard to tell whether the Antimode or bass traps would do best for the money ($350)? Right now I'm not that worried about high freq. reflections, I'm concerned right now with the LFE. I know I'm getting some peaks or nulls in the lower freq. I was just looking for some opinions from people who have actually used a Antimode and/or possible some bass traps. Thanks again for the replies.

FWIW, I liked bass traps over Antimode. If you can afford it both should give you more improvement.

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post #14 of 27 Old 09-16-2011, 02:20 PM
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Personal opinion - treat the room first - in your case as many big fat absorbers as possible, in as many corners as possible. Every small room needs as much bass absorption as you can fit. The ironic thing is absorption can make your bass more uniform (and hence sometimes louder) than EQ. If you have too much absorption at higher frequencies, a thin membrane can help. The nice thing about treating the room is it helps everywhere - EQ can only help in a few seats.

Edit: Speaker and listening position first, then absorbers, then eq, for best bang for the buck - IMO

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #15 of 27 Old 09-16-2011, 07:26 PM
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IMO, Both.

But, the Antimode first. Every subwoofer system used indoors, needs equalization. It's my opinion the Antimode would likely make the biggest difference and a logical first step due to this. Now, bass traps, if properly implemented, will lessen the significance of the disparity of the peaks and nulls in a similar manner as to the Antimode. Also, proper bass traps, properly implemented, will dampen down the system (subs/room) ringing present in the time domain. This increases apparent bass quantity, by sharply increasing delineation of individual bass elements by decreasing energy overhang present in the space.

The Antimode, is what it is. But bass traps can be DIY'ed,..and rather inexpensively too. Contact your local SPi wholesaler. They'll be listed in a major city around you as perhaps an insulation supplier. So EQ and bass trap. Roll your own traps as there is a vast array of documentation regarding this. Let me know, I'll supply you with whatever info you need.

Good luck

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post #16 of 27 Old 09-17-2011, 04:57 AM
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^^^

this. both, but antimode first. ime, eq makes the largest difference. you can't possibly stuff enough traps in a room to equal the effectiveness of eq (certainly not without creating other undesirable effects)...

i used an antimode for a long time, and was quite satisfied with the results...

the other thing to consider is an avr with audyssey xt... that 350 almost gets you into one...

imo/ime/ymmv, etc.

as far as the minidsp goes... if penn/don recommend it, that's good enough for me... but as don points out, it might not be the best/easiest solution for a novice, and would also require the purchase of measuring tools/software... which isn't a bad thing to have anyway, and with the recent introduction of tools like the omnimic kit and xtz kit that eliminate the painful (and for some us, impenetrable) learning curve of rew and the like, the user can actually successfully do meassurements in a very short period of time...

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post #17 of 27 Old 09-17-2011, 06:42 PM
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I have an Antimode and it has done a good job improving my bass. Tamed some peaks rather nicely, tightened up the sound and was a breeze to set up (under 10 mins. from opening the box to being finished).

It is not a magic cure-all, but for the price, it works well. Bass traps are also important (I've made some and they contribute to better bass, but the Antimode improved it further) but they can be difficult to integrate into a room, especially if aesthetics are an issue (they are not in my case, but that is clearly not true for everyone).
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post #18 of 27 Old 09-19-2011, 02:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Very good advice. I thank everyone. Now it's on me to recognize the pros and cons. Definitely need to read more. The suggestion about upgrading my AVR to a model that comes with an advanced Aud. that filters the bass is a solution That I never thought about before. I suppose I could sell my Onk.606 (its' in excellant condition) and add the $350 to that and look for another AVR ( I've been interested in the PIoneer Elite series). Just another alternative to consider.
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post #19 of 27 Old 09-19-2011, 11:46 AM
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Be aware that, while they are fine units (I own one, and no that does not make it fine!), Pioneer Elite does not EQ the subwoofer. You'll need Antimode or something else for that, or get an AVR that does EQ the bass (if you are looking at Elites, Chris can probably direct you on that and his new Denon toy-of-the-month... ). - Don

p.s. Chris -- I have not tried a miniDSP, just researching and wondering, so cannot say how good it is in practice from personal experience. There is a thread on them in the DIY section and they seem quite intriguing. A toy for a geek but I have so far resisted (probably not for much longer).

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post #20 of 27 Old 09-19-2011, 12:08 PM
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The Minidsp is not remotely easy like the Antimode or even the SVS SMS-1. From having to buy power cables/ICs separately to having to load softwareand set it up manually (assuming measurements can be done, another purchase) its definitely is a DIYer product.

Its price point and functionality that makes it so amazing IMO but its probably in the same price range as the Antimode if we consider $150 for measurement products + 180 for the MiniDSP.

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post #21 of 27 Old 09-19-2011, 08:38 PM
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$150? You're lucky, penngray -- my measurement mic cost more than my wife's new notebook! Of course, I have had it a while, and use it for other things so it has managed to pay for itself. As for the miniDSP, I stand by my "tool for geeks" opinion, but man I really want to play with one...

Thanks for the feedback! - Don

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post #22 of 27 Old 09-20-2011, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

$150? You're lucky, penngray -- my measurement mic cost more than my wife's new notebook!

may be relevant for anyone else reading this regarding mic's for REW/etc.:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5296197-post5.html
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post #23 of 27 Old 09-20-2011, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

$150? You're lucky, penngray -- my measurement mic cost more than my wife's new notebook! Of course, I have had it a while, and use it for other things so it has managed to pay for itself. As for the miniDSP, I stand by my "tool for geeks" opinion, but man I really want to play with one...

Thanks for the feedback! - Don


I can not think of anything a mic does more then a professionally calibrated ECM8000 for around $80. What did you buy??

Don, if you want to read some interesting stuff on different mics.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hlight=diy+mic

It shows there isnt really a reason to spend $$$ on mics if someone is just measuring in room bass frequencies.

btw, The MiniDSP is what I call the best product of 2010!!! Nothing comes close to what it can do in terms of functionality at its price point. Design/prototyping speakers has never been easier. Its nice to cascade 96dB slopes just to hear them I wish there was a better Transfer function application so biqauds would become plug and play

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post #24 of 27 Old 09-20-2011, 12:22 PM
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Earthworks calibrated measurement mic, have to check the model later. I have had it for probably 10 - 15 years now. Back then I did not see a lot of comparables, and needed to replace a B&K measurement mic I had gotten rid of too soon. Note I am using it for broadband analysis, not just bass, and at times with high SPLs (e.g. when testing installations for feedback).

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there are not good inexpensive choices now, quite the opposite. I wish they had been around, and/or I had known of them, back then!

Penngray -- what does the miniDSP take as an interface to program the biquads? I wonder if a simple spreadsheet would work to generate the coefficients...

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post #25 of 27 Old 09-20-2011, 12:28 PM
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^^^

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- chris

 

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post #26 of 27 Old 09-20-2011, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Penngray -- what does the miniDSP take as an interface to program the biquads? I wonder if a simple spreadsheet would work to generate the coefficients...

There is a spreadsheet for some of the popular transfer functions (LT circuit, HPF, LPF, etc) but I would love to see a highly customized application that will generate extreme slopes for me.

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post #27 of 27 Old 10-13-2011, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

Personal opinion - treat the room first - in your case as many big fat absorbers as possible, in as many corners as possible. Every small room needs as much bass absorption as you can fit. The ironic thing is absorption can make your bass more uniform (and hence sometimes louder) than EQ. If you have too much absorption at higher frequencies, a thin membrane can help. The nice thing about treating the room is it helps everywhere - EQ can only help in a few seats.

Edit: Speaker and listening position first, then absorbers, then eq, for best bang for the buck - IMO

I think it is a shared opinion that speaker placement and treatments are the foundation of a good room. EQ helps compensate for remaining imbalances.
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