Comparison of small room acoustic models for home listening spaces - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 06:59 AM
 
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Hmmmm...

Be careful or folks just MAY discover that more early (as well as late!) specular energy is effectively scavenged in the RFZ (where Little if any absolution was used, except possibly as a 'blanket' applied around the in wall mounted speakers, solely for diffraction control) so that it could be effectively returned to the listening position than in any similar 'Harmon room'.


...We wouldn't want to destroy any erroneous assumptions!

You know what is so frustrating about all of this debate over early reflections?
Its that it need not exist!
Even the vaunted Toole acknowledges the use of the 'new tools' to measurement identify anomalous high gain early reflections, allowing us to surgically treat ONLY the problematic indirect source (with either redirection, absorption or diffusion*), thus allowing ALL of the remaining early indirect energy to remain. Not only that, the measurements allow us to evaluate the qualitative characteristics of the early remaining early indirect energy for its degree of sparseness, as well as to evaluate the effectiveness of the treatment in order to determine additional options such as the use of diffusion to further enhance the spatial and temporal quality of the early arriving indirect energy, and/or to use the information in allowing us to explore possible options to control the high gin early arriving indirect energy - as depending upon the geometry of the room and the gain of the high gain indirect energy, alternative to absorption allowing us to reduce the gain while also spatially and temporally diffusing the energy. But to do so without the aid of analytic tools is difficult at best.

So its amazing the solutions and options that a little bit of information can enable.

And amazingly enough, where is the big 'dilemma' here?
Or are the folks here still confused over the acceptability of the non-destructive 'non-high gain' indirect energy????
And if one can, on occasion, utilize a bit of additional information provided by measurements to expand our options, such as may occur if we can use diffusion as an alternative tool to sufficiently reduce the gain of such destructive energy, and thus 'convert' such energy to the realm of constructive behavior, that's all for the better!

But one cannot simply say: "Oh, just swap out the absorption for diffusion" Or "Do this" or "Do that" without more site specific information.

So yeah, its easy to make general statements of potential solutions, but the result will generally be a few turning conditional recommendations into general solutions which then assume a life of their own independent of the specific conditional variables that must be determined and the results verified!

I mean, look at what happened to the 38% RULE that isn't a "rule" at all!

* Note that all are viable options, despite at least one of them not being a simple option, meaning that the actual characteristics must be examined in detail and the 'solution' examined to insure that the results actually solve the problem rather than simply shifting the nature of the problem about.
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post #242 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 07:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Wow. Just wow. Please stop frothing at the mouth - you sound positively rabid.

No, no, don't discourage it. Great stuff from the live in a control room/beyond critical condition listening types.
Different strokes for different folks. Literally.

cheers,

AJ
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post #243 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 07:23 AM
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I think we've lost track of the point here.

The goal was (is) to come up with some way to make the decisions about acoustic goals, given the difficulty is comparing side by side. While preferences are personal, and cannot be dictated or prescribed, there's no path suggested short of becoming an expert. Please reread Bigus's first post if that seems erroneous.
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post #244 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 07:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

Be careful or folks just MAY discover that more early (as well as late!) specular energy is effectively scavenged in the RFZ (where Little if any absolution was used, except possibly as a 'blanket' applied around the in wall mounted speakers, solely for diffraction control) so that it could be effectively returned to the listening position than in any similar 'Harmon room'.

Have you considered going over there personally and teaching Harman Intl a thing or two about perception, based on your perceptual research?
I'm sure security wouldn't be summoned. Do you consult?
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post #245 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 07:47 AM
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fwiw, this thread has me re-reading specific chapters in the (2) acoustic books I own in paperback; "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, and "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" by Floyd Toole.

Specifically, the Psychoacoustics portions, for me back to a re-understanding of the fundamentals.
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post #246 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 07:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I think we've lost track of the point here.

The goal was (is) to come up with some way to make the decisions about acoustic goals, given the difficulty is comparing side by side. While preferences are personal, and cannot be dictated or prescribed, there's no path suggested short of becoming an expert. Please reread Bigus's first post if that seems erroneous.

Oh, so you want the instructions to determine what flavor of ice cream you like best?

The various models address various aspects of behavior and subjective reinforcement. It is relatively easy to start with the assumptions I the one that most closely incorporates the behavior you most desire - sans restrictions the actual space may impose.

And to that end, at least to my thinking, the most complete model that is practical to implement - appropriate to the sources (2 ch or surround) is the one that generally most supports a more complete psycho-acoustic signature and will be most pleasing. That said, some like a deader environment.

So after all is said and done, stop looking to others to make the final decision for you!

And NO ONE has thus far suggested that anyone need become an expert to know what they themselves like!

But as far as a thread that will 'tell' you what you like, its time to stop looking to others for the answer. We can give you a menu and describe the general and relative characteristics of the offerings and even make suggestions as to what we think you might like - but GET OVER this absurd notion of someone else telling you what you like!
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Specifically, the Psychoacoustics portions, for me back to a re-understanding of the fundamentals.

Which is hopefully, that what we (including the control room sound crowd) can see in a measurement at a mic, is not necessarily the same as what we perceive with our binaural hearing. An important distinction.

cheers,

AJ
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post #248 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

fwiw, this thread has me re-reading specific chapters in the (2) acoustic books I own in paperback; "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, and "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" by Floyd Toole.

Specifically, the Psychoacoustics portions, for me back to a re-understanding of the fundamentals.

I find myself reading references as well ... spurred on by the discussions here and over on Home Theater shack on using REW for ETC measurements.
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post #249 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 08:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

fwiw, this thread has me re-reading specific chapters in the (2) acoustic books I own in paperback; "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, and "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" by Floyd Toole.

Specifically, the Psychoacoustics portions, for me back to a re-understanding of the fundamentals.

Unfortunately many very important and fundamental concepts regarding the basic acoustical behavior of a small acoustical space are omitted in both texts- which is rather obvious from the seeming never ending debates over the SAME issues that should be 'givens' rather then the source of perpetual debate.

And one of those is Sound System Engineering, and the other Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusors, both to understand the critical distinctions of speaker and large and small room acoustical distinctions as well as the detailed understanding of the various factors governing the use of absorption, diffusion and reflection as effective tools.
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post #250 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 08:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I find myself reading references as well. And then there's this SAC guy over on Home Theater Shack who is at least as smart as the people here especially on using REW for ETC, but yet is more laid back and actually easy to learn from.

Really? and I wonder who that SAC guy might be?

What do you think, local? ROFLMAO!
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post #251 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

And one of those is Sound System Engineering, and the other Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusors, both to understand the critical distinctions of speaker and large and small room acoustical distinctions as well as the detailed understanding of the various factors governing the use of absorption, diffusion and reflection as effective tools.

relevant section on ETC is available online: http://www.focalpress.com/uploadedFi...0240808307.pdf
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post #252 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 08:12 AM
 
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Just note that measurements are NOT a substitute for understanding the acoustical principles fundamental to behavior in a large and small acoustical space.

But they ARE an indescribable tool to illustrate aspects of such principles and behavior.
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post #253 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post

relevant section on ETC is available online: http://www.focalpress.com/uploadedFi...0240808307.pdf

Thanks. Downloaded and added to my reading list.

Jeff
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post #254 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

Really? and I wonder who that SAC guy might be?

What do you think, local? ROFLMAO!

I know, I know! Teacher, please pick me!
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post #255 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 09:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Which is hopefully, that what we (including the control room sound crowd) can see in a measurement at a mic, is not necessarily the same as what we perceive with our binaural hearing. An important distinction.

cheers,

AJ

What is more than a bit frustrating is to keep listening to a continue to repeatedly and falsely allude to others who use measurements alleging that they mistake the measurement of the actual physical response with that of the psycho-acoustical response; when the fact is that we have almost continually made reference tot eh nature of the correlation between the physical behavior of sound and the perceived natures of the sound.

And they do this all while failing to provide meaningful measured specs with speakers that have a direct correlation to how a speaker behaves within a bounded space and which contribute directly to psycho-acoustics and how the source is perceived.

Of course they are Not the same.

And ironically, in part due to research such as IACC and Dr. Killion's ITE mics and recordings, we know precisely the relationship of how the sound at each ear correlates to what is measured. And if you want to measure and explore this, invest in ARTA - a 2 channel FFT platform which specifically has full capabilities for IACC measurements.

But we have a significant body of information indicating the critical relationship between the actual physical behavior and how we perceive it!

Now, if we can just get the Luddites who do little more than keep reminding us that they are not the same to realize and subsequently start to learn about the relationship and correlation between the two!
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post #256 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

And to that end, at least to my thinking, the most complete model that is practical to implement - appropriate to the sources (2 ch or surround) is the one that generally most supports a more complete psycho-acoustic signature and will be most pleasing. That said, some like a deader environment.

Your exasperation at feeling the need to repeat yourself is understandable. Still, when I read this I can't help feeling you're being deliberately obtuse. I suppose you refrain from making more complete and plain statements for fear of being cited as making a recommendation, which will then be taken as a blanket statement and disagreed with and used against you by some who might want to make you seem wrong or foolish. That's not my intention.

Consider a similar scenario you may have encountered where you sought someone else's advice. Imagine that you were out to dinner and wanted a recommendation for wine to accompany your meal. Wouldn't you feel insulted by the wine steward if he remarked that choosing the wine was simple if you would just choose the wine that matched your preferences for color, aroma, acid and tannin content? You are a thoughtful fellow, and well-read, so why not treat the rest of us here as you might treat your friends at dinner?

In terms of drawing my own conclusions from your posts - here's what I'm looking for: I'm looking for a room that I can enjoy the company and conversation of my friends in, but also provides unmistakable clarity in dialog over the middle 50% of the room - enough space for 6 people to watch a movie. Also, I want to prioritize directionality in the signals from my surround loudspeakers, perhaps at the expense of some ambiance in the surround channels. From what I've come to understand, this will require a well-established Haas interval from all channels. 1D diffusion and carefully placed reflection are probably required to maintain energy in the room while directing reflected energy away from my listening region during that all-important ISD. Can you suggest a more complete model whose details I might analyze to help me realize these goals? Are these goals unattainable in a room of only 22-23 hundred cubic feet?

Fred
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post #257 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 10:34 AM
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From what I've come to understand, this will require a well-established Haas interval from all channels.

I have specifically asked if ALL channels need this and have not yet seen an answer.
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post #258 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 10:53 AM
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I have specifically asked if ALL channels need this and have not yet seen an answer.

You're right that this hasn't been made clear (at least here, so far as I have seen). If surmised that this is the best choice for me, given my preference for directionality over spaciousness in the surround channels. Also, I have not read a number of the articles linked to here and elsewhere in these forums on the topic, but it seems to me there is not widespread consensus on this issue.
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I'm looking for a room that I can enjoy the company and conversation of my friends in, but also provides unmistakable clarity in dialog over the middle 50% of the room - enough space for 6 people to watch a movie. Also, I want to prioritize directionality in the signals from my surround
loudspeakers, perhaps at the expense of some ambiance in the surround channels.

Fred

Hi Fred,
Can't open your link, so it's tough to figure why it is you aren't achieving that goal.
Out of curiosity, do you feel the acoustic sources...speakers...play any role in the sound of this room you are looking for?
As for the latter part, why would that be?

cheers,

AJ
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post #260 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

You're right that this hasn't been made clear (at least here, so far as I have seen). If surmised that this is the best choice for me, given my preference for directionality over spaciousness in the surround channels. Also, I have not read a number of the articles linked to here and elsewhere in these forums on the topic, but it seems to me there is not widespread consensus on this issue.

I am less concerned with my cinema speaker configuration, but I manually swap tripole surrounds at 90° for monopoles (identical to LCR) at 120° for hi-res multichannel music. As nearly all of my content in that category is "in the band" it would seem that the two surrounds should be "treated" like LCR.

Jeff
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post #261 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

What is dismissed in the obsessive self-analysis paralysis where you can't decide what you like. I haven't tried every flavor of ice cream in the world, but that does not prevent me from making some pretty good choices based upon available information and having tried a few.

You've both misunderstood the question and its application to the topic at hand. I have to think this is intentional.

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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Hi Fred,
Can't open your link, so it's tough to figure why it is you aren't achieving that goal.
AJ

Try this one: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1372262
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post #263 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh, so you want the instructions to determine what flavor of ice cream you like best?

Yes.

If the process of how to do this intelligently were as simple as identifying the ice cream you prefer out of the available flavors, not to mention as quick and inexpensive, I wouldn't have bothered to seek others' thoughts on the topic.

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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

You've both misunderstood the question and its application to the topic at hand. I have to think this is intentional.

I've seen this - and other threads - go like this before. Let's try to refocus things without ascribing agendas. I'm frustrated as well, but this tack doesn't end well.
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post


I've seen this - and other threads - go like this before. Let's try to refocus things without ascribing agendas. I'm frustrated as well, but this tack doesn't end well.

Sure. I'm trying to remain focused on the topic but I think I have been clear enough. sdurani grasped the issue quite readily and offered a possible solution. I was hoping others with sizeable experience in the field might have further, perhaps more pragmatic, insight.

Then again, it seems I need therapy for daring to ask these questions.

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post #267 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 03:13 PM
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I think there's something about studying the field of acoustics long enough that removes one ability to see the forest for the trees

I look forward to dragonfyr's possible reply to Fred's post #262, but I'm not holding my breath. There's something about these two that they find actual practice (as opposed to endless theory) positively allergenic...
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post #268 of 415 Old 02-28-2012, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Your exasperation at feeling the need to repeat yourself is understandable. Still, when I read this I can't help feeling you're being deliberately obtuse. I suppose you refrain from making more complete and plain statements for fear of being cited as making a recommendation, which will then be taken as a blanket statement and disagreed with and used against you by some who might want to make you seem wrong or foolish. That's not my intention.

Consider a similar scenario you may have encountered where you sought someone else's advice. Imagine that you were out to dinner and wanted a recommendation for wine to accompany your meal. Wouldn't you feel insulted by the wine steward if he remarked that choosing the wine was simple if you would just choose the wine that matched your preferences for color, aroma, acid and tannin content? You are a thoughtful fellow, and well-read, so why not treat the rest of us here as you might treat your friends at dinner?

In terms of drawing my own conclusions from your posts - here's what I'm looking for: I'm looking for a room that I can enjoy the company and conversation of my friends in, but also provides unmistakable clarity in dialog over the middle 50% of the room - enough space for 6 people to watch a movie. Also, I want to prioritize directionality in the signals from my surround loudspeakers, perhaps at the expense of some ambiance in the surround channels. From what I've come to understand, this will require a well-established Haas interval from all channels. 1D diffusion and carefully placed reflection are probably required to maintain energy in the room while directing reflected energy away from my listening region during that all-important ISD. Can you suggest a more complete model whose details I might analyze to help me realize these goals? Are these goals unattainable in a room of only 22-23 hundred cubic feet?

Fred

Where is the "Like" button?

Sounds good!
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post #269 of 415 Old 03-01-2012, 05:40 AM
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Bump
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post #270 of 415 Old 03-01-2012, 06:04 AM
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I'm setting up to do a session with REW that will hopefully result in usable data that will tell me whether my present treatments are effective, and whether swapping the rear wall absorption for diffusion is a good idea.

Jeff
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