I was wondering can anyone explain t me how a upgraded power cord can help? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

It is not a logical error. It is an error in understanding.

We're ground looping here John.
It's still a logical error. Can't prove a negative. The nonsensical "proof" as to why is superfluous.

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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Based on some statistical data you can provide, I assume??

Sample A: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html
Peruse the "power cord" threads and tell me the percentage of people who are starting out with actual perceived physical problems (loops, etc.) vs mental ones.

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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

I have hilited your deepest darkest fears

My fears? As someone who acknowledges the can factor? Hardly.
When (not if) folks ask me how much "improvement" can be achieved by "upgrading" from the standard IEC cord supplied with my speakers (active <200hz only), I say, as much as can be expected.
And I mean it sincerely.

cheers,

AJ
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

One has to focus their resources to attempt to have any sort of an impact otherwise the efforts become diluted to the point of ineffectiveness. So, maybe cable and wires are person A's cause celebre.

Chu, your specialty is marketing psychology. I assume the latter word is in there because you pay attention to human behavior. I sure hope the above is an argument not what you believe. People have picked this area to fight over because a forum exists for them to shout from the mountaintop: AVS with 30M visitors a month. They want to be the alpha wolf of audio, showing to be right and cash in those virtual chips. We all are motivated that way. The only difference is whether we accept this fact or not .

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Does logic also say that if a researcher is focused on studying with the hopes of successfully treating a particular form of cancer?

The researcher is working in his field of study. With some rare exceptions, most of the people arguing these points are completely out of their field of study, knowledge and profession. The speak with many common mistakes and understandings of the same. So please, if you want to bring analogies, let them be half relevant .

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I've known sh!tty doctors and lawyers. They're like anybody else that has a trade like a roofer or mechanic. There's good ones and bad ones. Bigus I believe has earlier stated his education and experience.

Bigus is a mechanical engineer according to his profile. Having taken mechanical engineering classes while getting my degree, I can tell you no one should let me design a bridge for them . Likewise, maybe he has taken some electrical engineering classes in school but that in no way makes him qualified to analyze and think through design issues that come from real experience of working on products rather than circuit theory 101. And it certainly does not make him any smarter.

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But you know what makes virtually the entire boutique cable and wire thing a sham? It really doesn't exist outside of the whole audio industry.

It does. As I said, people have focused in this area because there is a virtual reward to have this cat fight. I gave example of playing music to cows in Japan. You are telling me there is more validity to that than cables? And how about where the water came from for that bottled water? Folks put what is essentially free in a bottle and sell it for half the price of gasoline (used to be the same price!). It used to be that at least we got some sugar and food coloring for that kind of money in sodas. Now they have eliminated that and we still pay the same amount!

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Audio and video equipment isn't the only thing in this world that requires power or the connecting of equipment. Why isn't there market penetration into the scientific field?

I am not in those fields so someone else can answer. I can say that when I wired my garage for woodworking, I had a choice of the cheapest outlet or the commercial quality ones. I played with both. The latter had much more secure connection. Seeing how I am pushing the boundaries of power there with my high-power tools, I paid more to get the better outlet. Both outlets have the exact same power rating. But quality of construction mattered to me beyond the simple specifications. Likewise, most of the premium cables exude quality. That may be motivation alone for some to acquire them especially if there is an issue of long term oxidation due our electronics being connected once and left there.

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Why don't I see Shunyata, Cardas, and Nordost cables in labs?

There is one more thing to worry about there: ROI. In a business, you have to have pay off for the investment. If equipment works to the spec required with the cheapest cable, then that is what is going to be sold. We see this in pro gear all the time. B2B business has its own severe constraints.

Audiophiles are not motivated by ROI for the most part. We all make silly purchases here even if we are "objectivists." After all, if it is about the best ROI, then a portable music player with MP3 would let us enjoy the music and we would not need anything else. Ditto for a 32 inch LCD.

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Whatever monies we may have, they're nothing like the pocketbooks the scientific community can bring to bear.

As a manager of R&D projects, I always weighed the cost of equipment relative to hiring more people. I always asked if that $50K would be as useful as half an engineer. I would not spend the money just because we had it. No doubt that there are poorly managed organizations that spend money as you say. In that case, they probably have bottled water too in their kitchen .

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Why aren't the instruments that Atkinson and even you use rewired with audiophile names? Shouldn't the astronomers studying cosmological things be taking advantage of the greater sensitivity and resolution that high end cabling provides? Why are the cable mongers confining themselves to such a narrow niche of potential customers when they should be looking to expand their presence? National Starch certainly didn't confine themselves to making starch solely for the purpose of serving the food industry. The very fact that the cable mongers can't expand past the little segment they purport to serve suggests that they've found the highest concentration of gullibility willing to open their pocketbooks.

Look, you keep asking me to tell you why you should buy such a cable when I am not here to advocate one. I am just telling you that you are not motivated by the farces you speak about. You are motivated by a childish emotion of being right in front of a crowd. I have provided ample proof of that. You can keep denying it but it is the only thing that is logical. What else would explain a group of people pretended to be experts at all things electronic when they lack the degree, and work experience to even remotely be qualified to make these claims? How many audio instruments have you designed to know that they don't test multiple cables to find the one that works best? You say that factually as if you know it. You also ignore again the ROI argument I just mentioned. If you were a real customer or the designers of these products, you would know these factors but you are not.

Let there be no misunderstanding. There is a lot people can learn by reading the forums. It is great that you all spend so much time here doing that. My issue is that you then consider that knowledge to be so authoritative as to an expert in the field and proceed to prove to people why your point of view is right. Help me understand that Chu. You gave me examples of the medical field. Are there many examples of people reading about medicine in forums, then proceeding to take on researchers in the field and folks like you cheering them on?

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Old 11-02-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

We're ground looping here John.
It's still a logical error. Can't prove a negative. The nonsensical "proof" as to why is superfluous.

Then why, oh why, AJ, when somebody says that physics, or science, or electrical engineering says that a PC can't alter a sound system, do you not chip in with the ol...can't prove a negative schpiel?? Because your afraid of being branded a yaysayer... (be afraid, reeeeel afraid)..

And superfluous??? You tellin me you workin with helium 3 now??


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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Sample A: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html
Peruse the "power cord" threads and tell me the percentage of people who are starting out with actual perceived physical problems (loops, etc.) vs mental ones.

Oh You have GOT to be kidding me...

You provide that link to that forum as some sort of proof???? Yes, the occasional injection of humor is a good thing, but you have exceeded the bounds there..


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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

My fears? As someone who acknowledges the can factor? Hardly.
When (not if) folks ask me how much "improvement" can be achieved by "upgrading" from the standard IEC cord supplied with my speakers (active <200hz only), I say, as much as can be expected.
And I mean it sincerely.

cheers,

AJ

Yah, fears..you are deathly afraid that somewhere, somehow, somebody is going to prove that PC's can make a difference in a system by virtue of modification of ground loop currents..and that those "goofball guys" who have claimed they do all along may actually have had a point..

Oh wait, we're passed that point, aren't we...I have shown an actual mechanism.



oops..

Now the argument should be, while the mechanism does indeed exist, is that what is happening within "my system", or is it expectation bias..

oops..we already agree with that....as well..

Haven't seen you in ages, AJ. How's life treating you? Hope all is well..

I must admit, most of the posts have been boring, it needed spicing up...

Cheers, jn

ps..as much as expected is actually a good catchall phrase..nice..

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Old 11-02-2011, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

But you know what makes virtually the entire boutique cable and wire thing a sham? It really doesn't exist outside of the whole audio industry. Audio and video equipment isn't the only thing in this world that requires power or the connecting of equipment. Why isn't there market penetration into the scientific field? Why don't I see Shunyata, Cardas, and Nordost cables in labs? Whatever monies we may have, they're nothing like the pocketbooks the scientific community can bring to bear. Why aren't the instruments that Atkinson and even you use rewired with audiophile names? Shouldn't the astronomers studying cosmological things be taking advantage of the greater sensitivity and resolution that high end cabling provides? Why are the cable mongers confining themselves to such a narrow niche of potential customers when they should be looking to expand their presence? National Starch certainly didn't confine themselves to making starch solely for the purpose of serving the food industry. The very fact that the cable mongers can't expand past the little segment they purport to serve suggests that they've found the highest concentration of gullibility willing to open their pocketbooks.

This is a very good point. And I did read Amir's ROI response and must disagree.

The truth is inside highly technical fields like astronomy for example, the users have technical background. Now that background may not contain much EE theory but the basic scientific process is very acute. If one were to try and sell better power cords for their lab gear, they will want to test the results just out of principle. Its easy to see why no audiophile cable vendor wants to go there.

As for the broadcast and mastering industry, the very industry that supplies the consumer software, we find the claims of the cable vendors are without technical merit. It is not a cost issue. We pay over $100K for a VCR. Now if we could get better performance with a $1000 power cord, don't you think we would buy it? hell the rack slides alone are over $500. We do take power quality very seriously. That why we have almost a million invested in plant wide UPS systems - 300kva capacity. We run isolated ground in all technical areas. No, it's not a cost issue at all.

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Old 11-02-2011, 11:59 AM
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Look, you keep asking me to tell you why you should buy such a cable when I am not here to advocate one.

I thought he asked why no other industry buys into them?

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I am just telling you that you are not motivated by the farces you speak about. You are motivated by a childish emotion of being right in front of a crowd.

Pot...kettle.

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I have provided ample proof of that.

Yes you have, in spades.
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Old 11-02-2011, 12:13 PM
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Amir, how come you didn't tell everyone that in addition to the special treatment the cattle receive in Japan like music (Lady GaGa?), beer, massages with sake, they also get 'happy endings'?

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Old 11-02-2011, 12:15 PM
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It's not ROI Glimmie. It's ROG (Return on Gullibility).

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Old 11-02-2011, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

With some rare exceptions, most of the people arguing these points are completely out of their field of study, knowledge and profession.

Darn it..I was hoping nobody saw through me...


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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I always asked if that $50K would be as useful as half an engineer.

Half an engineer?? Man, you got some cheap engineers..I'm never woikin fo youze...couldn't afford to.

Maybe 1/4 of an engineer.. gotta cover overhead, gotta be insured.

My purchased equipment has no need for specialty cords because they meet specification, and the specs are tight... as in with a capital k...

The built stuff that cannot be purchased at any price...that we take very good care to either eliminate EMC issues, or wire the machine to prevent them.

So, the big projects will never be an aftermarket cord customer..ever.

Cheers, jn

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Old 11-02-2011, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

... special treatment the cattle receive in Japan like music (Lady GaGa?), beer, massages with sake, they also get 'happy endings'?

Hey! You look for good beef G.I.? She a vegan and moo-moo long time.
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Old 11-02-2011, 03:55 PM
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I wonder if it's available for the kosher population?

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Old 11-02-2011, 04:11 PM
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Oy vey!
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Old 11-02-2011, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

This is a very good point. And I did read Amir's ROI response and must disagree.

The truth is inside highly technical fields like astronomy for example, the users have technical background. Now that background may not contain much EE theory but the basic scientific process is very acute. If one were to try and sell better power cords for their lab gear, they will want to test the results just out of principle. Its easy to see why no audiophile cable vendor wants to go there.

As for the broadcast and mastering industry, the very industry that supplies the consumer software, we find the claims of the cable vendors are without technical merit. It is not a cost issue. We pay over $100K for a VCR. Now if we could get better performance with a $1000 power cord, don't you think we would buy it? hell the rack slides alone are over $500. We do take power quality very seriously. That why we have almost a million invested in plant wide UPS systems - 300kva capacity. We run isolated ground in all technical areas. No, it's not a cost issue at all.

Of course cost is an issue. That $1M was not approved because someone thought it was a good idea and they could spend any money they wanted. They looked at the operational cost of the plant and decided that they would incur more costs in equipment failures and down time than if they paid for good power. And if they could do it for $800K, that would be all they would pay.

As you know, I have managed engineering at two hardware companies selling to broadcast/post-production industries. No one would buy equipment unless they could justify them in return on investment. We would come out with a new product and if it did not given them a business advantage that they could monetize immediately, they would not get it no matter how much better the product was. You make it sound like if more money can buy more performance, they spend it regardless. I did not see one customer like that.

And to be clear, I am not defending cables. Gosh, how many times have I said this . I am simply saying his analogy is out of order. Chu claims other applications don't use better cables but he doesn't work in those businesses and further, you can't compare a business to a person's hobby. That is why I used food as an analogy.

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Old 11-02-2011, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Of course cost is an issue. That $1M was not approved because someone thought it was a good idea and they could spend any money they wanted. They looked at the operational cost of the plant and decided that they would incur more costs in equipment failures and down time than if they paid for good power. And if they could do it for $800K, that would be all they would pay.

Ah that "someone" was the VP of Engineering - ME!

And as far as the equipment you sold, like $80K DVEs, I can promises you if the vendor (you) could demonstrate the need for the $1000 power cord, most would buy it. After all whats $1000 more on top of $80K. Problem is nobody can demonstrate any advantage to the professionals in this area of the industry.

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Old 11-02-2011, 05:03 PM
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Ah that "someone" was the VP of Engineering - ME!

And as far as the equipment you sold, like $80K DVEs, I can promises you if the vendor (you) could demonstrate the need for the $1000 power cord, most would buy it. After all whats $1000 more on top of $80K. Problem is nobody can demonstrate any advantage to the professionals in this area of the industry.

Again, I am not saying cables make a difference. I am saying how a business makes a decision on an expenditure, is not the same as what a hobbyist would do. No one would put a Grade 1 monitor in a rack for confidence monitoring even though it is more accurate. The ROI simply is not there.

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Old 11-02-2011, 05:22 PM
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No one would put a Grade 1 monitor in a rack for confidence monitoring even though it is more accurate. The ROI simply is not there.

Hmm, every broadcast and post facility I have been in did! First it was Conrac then Sony and Ikegami with a few Ascas here and there. Now the TV in the cafeteria, thats another story!

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Old 11-02-2011, 05:36 PM
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So, you gonna raise some Kobe beef, Amir? Give them some microbrew, put some Sinatra on (Strangers in the Night), and finish the sake massage with a discreet rub out? I think I'll market some bovine KY jelly. I can tell everyone how moooooooooooving it is and you can be my first testimonial!

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Old 11-02-2011, 06:00 PM
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The only thing I am speculating is your odds of picking correct two out of four cables correctly.

So I have a bet for you Tess. $100 to the charity of choice. I will send you 4 IC cables RCA or XLR or a mix. Two I will burn in with pink noise for 100 hours. All off the same spool.

You have 30 days to do any method of evaluation you want. I will post a password protected encrypted zip file with the key. Cables will be solder terminated and I can provide a 24X7 web feed of the cable burn in. Just post back to us which is which. I would personally love to see your experience in action. Either you have faith in your experience or you don't.



You can call it whatever you want. The great thing about my challenge is your credibility in this matter is shot to hell either way. I (the objectivist) wins either way:

1. You refuse to put your experience (remember people give advice based on said experience) to the test. So you lack credibility.

2. You take the test and can't pick the two 'burned in cables' so your experience is worthless.

There is 1 in 6 chance that randomness will net you a win. Taking this challenge is simply the Coup de grĂ¢ce. I don't really think any one is that stupid though so I will take the win for the objectivist camp as it stands.

So you want to send me some cheap cable to conduct your "challenge" that tries to prove that expensive cable is not worth the money?

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So I am protecting the newb from you.

From little 'ole me, the cable demon dog? How many "newbs" have you "saved" from buying $500 cables, as you stated previously? Maybe they will come in and post as testament to your heroics?

I put forth that most hobbyists considering spending $500 on a cable are not "newbies".

Have you tried this "challenge" yourself? You also proclaim that there are no real differences in amplifiers, CD players, etc. Have you challenged your beliefs in that realm?

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Old 11-02-2011, 06:03 PM
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Cables in the night exchanging 'lectrons.
Bouncing left and right evading tampons.
They'd be sharing love before this thread is through.
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Old 11-02-2011, 06:04 PM
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Cables in the night exchanging 'lectrons.
Bouncing left and right evading tampons.
They'd be sharing love before this thread is through.

Got a picture of this?

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Old 11-02-2011, 06:07 PM
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I grok.
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Old 11-02-2011, 06:19 PM
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Depends on what you mean by taste.

Not really. Taste is a simple human sense, and that's all the definition required. Tastes different is a statement if fact. Falsifiable, at least potentially. Tastes better is a statement of opinion. Not falsifiable despite your description of taste testers "objectively" evaluating food. No matter how expert, taste preference on an individual level is and only can be opinion. You cannot prove something tastes better to me. And I can't prove it to you. But we can prove to each other that two things taste different. You can use subjective senses like hearing and taste to collect objective data, but only if the question poses is factual in nature. Preference will always be that.

And others shouldn't misapply this to cables. My problem is that no one has demonstrated a difference. Do that, and you can act on whatever preference you wish without my taking issue with the transaction.

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Old 11-02-2011, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

In my back and forth with you, it is clear that you don't walk around consumed with saving people from all manner of fraud in the world.

I save lives, does that count? But it's good to know that we have a psychic on the forums for good measure. In all seriousness, is the concept of people having hobbies and passions that foreign to you? On an audio site? Strange.

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You are probably OK with a guy buying an LCD TV thinking he is going to get a great 3-D experience.

humanly detectable differences. Real feature variations.

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You are probably OK if I am buying an AVR that can't put out its rated power across all the channels.

hamly detectable differences. Real feature variations.

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You are probably OK if I get fooled by the example Joe gave of dynamic contrast in TVs.

ditto

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And I am sure you are OK if I bought an AVR that advertises 24-bit DACs, only to find out that it can't do more than 12 or 13 bits.

ditto

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But somehow, somehow, you are outraged if I buy a $99 power cord for less than that amount after discount.

no humanly detectable difference.

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I need to be saved from my ignorance.

maybe not you, but plenty of forum visitors. And I don't mind being helpful. Getting back to your initial nonsense at the top of this post, I care nothin about gardening, fine shoes, or sailboating... but if there are similar instances of identically performing products being marketed to the uninformed with unsubstantiated claims, I hope people passionate in those areas are equally as helpful. Do you have a problem with that too?

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See where I am going?

not in the slightest

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Logic therefore says that you are not really here to save anyone.

you are prefacing your absurd statements with a claim of logic? Please, don't.

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On a related point, can you tell me what makes your understanding of this field superior to the people you think are fooled by cable claims?

Sure. I'm not fooled by cable claims.

And I may not have slept at a holiday inn, but I'm a respected doctor too.

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Do you read a different set of forum posts than they do? Is your IQ higher? Heaven help us all if that is the case as these are respected doctors, lawyers, etc. I hate to think I am getting advice from them during their day job if their IQ is in question .

Blah, blah, strawman, red herring, blah, blah. You attempt to divert everyone of these threads off topic in the hopes that the gullible won't notice that the initial question has been conveniently swept aside. Do cables make a difference? No. Claim otherwise, prove it.

Btw, a blind test can be accomplished which satisfies all your criteria. It simply (hah) requires that the test subjects not know they are being tested. Every time I recall this happening the golden ears cry foul for one reason or another.

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Old 11-02-2011, 07:11 PM
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So, you gonna raise some Kobe beef, Amir?

I am actually. I have been running double blind tests to see which type of music works best on them. I have gone through 100 cows so far and all the results are the same as flipping the coin. But I am not giving up.

I am thinking for the next round to go for single blind tests as I have gotten complaints about the cows not being happy being raised blind folded. Just myself being blind folded is good enough. No?

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Old 11-02-2011, 07:18 PM
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Btw, a blind test can be accomplished which satisfies all your criteria. It simply (hah) requires that the test subjects not know they are being tested.

Ah, this is getting interesting! I thought for a second you were not in favor of figuring out whether you all post these things for your emotional needs to win arguments than being informational. I tend to think we don't need the tests as this is clear from your arguments with me, where I have clearly agreed with the point of view regarding power cables, yet you keep going to win some points here. But some testing would not hurt. How would we do that?

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Every time I recall this happening the golden ears cry foul for one reason or another.

You need Golden ears to figure out if someone is following their hormones or brains???

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Old 11-02-2011, 07:19 PM
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So you want to send me some cheap cable to conduct your "challenge" that tries to prove that expensive cable is not worth the money?

Don't be misleading. $$ of cable never came into the cable burn in thread. If you would like I can get some AQ Diamondbacks and send you two burned in and four not.

The only issue is a purchase agreement needs to be filled out by you in case I don't get them back. I have to have a way to place a hold on a credit card or get someone here to escrow the amount. Also it is now $450 to the winner since I need the cost of the cable covered. $10 in parts is one thing. $450 is another. Now it is 6 cables. As the prize goes up so does the # of cables. Want to do this for an even $1K? 8 cables.

Plus the question of cable construction and termination is moot.


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Have you tried this "challenge" yourself? You also proclaim that there are no real differences in amplifiers, CD players, etc. Have you challenged your beliefs in that realm?

I really haven't made those claims Tess. For a person that wants to talk about honesty and credibility you are throwing around some pretty serious accusations that you can't back up.

I have made the claim that if you can come in stone cold and on my Statements pick out the Parasound vs Crown 9/10 times the Parasound is yours (if you are making the claim the Pro-audio amps are as a class poor sounding). I don't think I ever had that conversation with you and I don't think you ever made such claims.

The only thing I have ever called you on was what IMO is cable burn-in b.s. You made claims.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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Old 11-02-2011, 07:51 PM
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Wow! You serviced a 100 head of cattle! You are the Dirk Diggler of the carnivore club!

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Old 11-02-2011, 08:16 PM
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Don't be misleading. $$ of cable never came into the cable burn in thread. If you would like I can get some AQ Diamondbacks and send you two burned in and four not.

The only issue is a purchase agreement needs to be filled out by you in case I don't get them back. I have to have a way to place a hold on a credit card or get someone here to escrow the amount. Also it is now $450 to the winner since I need the cost of the cable covered. $10 in parts is one thing. $450 is another. Now it is 6 cables. As the prize goes up so does the # of cables. Want to do this for an even $1K? 8 cables.

Plus the question of cable construction and termination is moot.

How am I being misleading? The rabbit hole gets deeper. And why do you get to pick the cable?

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I really haven't made those claims Tess. For a person that wants to talk about honesty and credibility you are throwing around some pretty serious accusations that you can't back up.

Wow, serious accusations? Not by me. You are the one who wants my credit card info. I do think you are taking yourself a bit too seriously.

BTW, do you realize that you are not the first to make this burn in "challenge" here at AVS? I am getting the sense that you think you are the first.

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I have made the claim that if you can come in stone cold and on my Statements pick out the Parasound vs Crown 9/10 times the Parasound is yours (if you are making the claim the Pro-audio amps are as a class poor sounding). I don't think I ever had that conversation with you and I don't think you ever made such claims.

The only thing I have ever called you on was what IMO is cable burn-in b.s. You made claims.

And, as I have explained to you many times, your challenge lacks controls. It has been explained to you that not all cable benefits from or requires burn in.

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Old 11-02-2011, 08:52 PM
 
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not all cable benefits from or requires burn in.

Isn't that misleading?
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:32 PM
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Wow! You serviced a 100 head of cattle! You are the Dirk Diggler of the carnivore club!

It is not that. I have been taught by people here that any number less than that is not "statistically significant." Being an overachiever, I am shooting for 500 so that there is no doubt as to validity of my results. So if you are not scared of blood and can make it to the wild west where we live, come and help me with either playing music or butchering the meat. I will give you joint publication rights on the paper I am writing for the distinguished ABJ (American Beef Journal) when the study is finished.

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Old 11-02-2011, 11:28 PM
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Ah, this is getting interesting! I thought for a second you were not in favor of figuring out whether you all post these things for your emotional needs to win arguments than being informational.

Not exactly what point you are trying to make here (seems to be a recurring theme), but if you notice my first post in this thread was in response to a manufacturer of high priced boutique cables making an unambiguous statement of fact, a clear claim that his cables, and I quote, "demonstrably make a difference."

I have a problem with a manufacturer posting in a thread where an uninformed poster is looking for information, and the post consisting of wholly unsubstianted claims.

I offered to buy lots of cables if he could unambiguously demonstrate they made an audible difference under conditions which eliminated sources of bias. He was not interested, and I don't blame him. Among the many possible reasons he might decline, not the least of which is the near certainty that his products do not actually create audible differences, is the unavoidable truth that not all sources of bias could be eliminate. A big one remains,namely my own expectation bias. More on that in a sec.

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I tend to think we don't need the tests as this is clear from your arguments with me, where I have clearly agreed with the point of view regarding power cables, yet you keep going to win some points here. But some testing would not hurt. How would we do that?

Reading palms again today? I hate that my motives are so transparent to you. Sheesh. You were having a somewhat protracted discussion with jin on the potential flaws in his proposed blinded test. One you didn't mention directly is that his proposal is only single blinded. That of course leads to many of the other issues you raised so you did address it at least indirectly. Having a third neutral party burn in the cables and label them removes the temptation to tamper with their construction among other things.

But I digress. The issue you raised which I always find particurlarly interesting is the claim that simply being 'under a test' somehow destroys differences that with eyes open were previously huge, veil lifting, transformational, etc. While I think this excuse is obvious for what it is, you are correct that if all potential confounders are to be removed this also has to be addressed. So I made the comment for which you accused me of 'winning points' out of a personal interest in controlled test methodology, and a desire to again be helpful if possible.

Since you asked for further discussion here, I'll oblige. To remove this confounder, you can't allow the subjects to know they are being tested. At least, you can't allow them to know how or for what they are being tested. If being in a relaxed state not under the stress of a controlled test is crucial to ear functioning, then that pretense has to be maintained. It certainly wouldn't be easy, perhaps impossible as organized on a discussion forum like this.

The cases I referred to were something like asking casual audiophile passersby which CD transport sounded best, not knowing that an iPod was one of the sources. Or asking customers which speaker cables sounded better without actually changing them. To do this in a formal way takes lots of planning. It is most often acccomplished by having the test subjects complete some task thinking they are being tested for one thing yet the actual data is collected on something completely unrelated. Such as testing them for psychic ability to see face down cards, but the real experiment is to see if they will yawn after the test administrator does.

I think its an interesting aside to the otherwise circular discussion taking place. Sorry for trying to inject a little reality again.

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You need Golden ears to figure out if someone is following their hormones or brains???

Again I'm not sure if this is an odd joke or a serious question. In any case, I was simply pointing out a truth about the nature of some controlled tests. When you have a believer and skeptic camp about some positive claim, it MUST be members of the believer camp who undergo testing if the question is to be evaluated scientifically. Which is why I said earlier that my personal bias cannot be eliminated. If I undergo blinded testing, I could simply say everything sounds the same even if enormous differences were present. Even if I were trying to be absolutely fair and neutral, my belief that AC power cord claims are ridiculous might subconsciously influence my perceptions just as strongly as a believer's beliefs influence his sighted perceptions.

So yeah, golden ears. Or cable believers, or whatever you want to call this group. They have to participate (knowingly or not) to demonstrate proof of their claims. And in the anectotal stories I've read and occasions I've witnessed where they were somewhat informally tested blindly without their knowledge, there is always an excuse for their failures (rarely related to the real deficiencies in test methodology which are typically present, interestingly enough)

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