Air Mixing Sounds - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 6 Old 01-24-2012, 03:27 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
TheTechGuru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
or at least that's what I call it because I have been unable to find a official name for what I am talking about. I am talking about how the sound from the pipes of a pipe organ mix and create harmony's in the air creating rich, full, clean, powerful sound.

I am attempting to do the same thing via multiple speaker channels, right now I am limited to 5 + 1 LFE which is fine because the songs I am creating I'm using 4 right fingers and 1-2 left finger(s) totaling 5-6 channels.

The hard part is having to play a song part with each different finger's part by itself exactly the same 5-6 times, once for each track/channel.

What I'd like to know, for one, is there any easier way of doing this, and two, are there any commercial interest in this sort of thing? I've always wished record labels would sell multi track audio so that the recordings could be played back on multiple speakers just the way they were in the recording studio.

If you have a 5.1 (assuming you would not be here if you didn't) and the ability to pass a digital stream from a AC3 file to it, please sample these two .ac3's I have made and let me know if you think this has potential. I know about the hiss, it's my laptop's sound card and unshielded internal wiring, when I get ready to do some serious recording I'll use my desktop's Audigy 2.

The first uses all 6 channels:

Code:
http://media.txnj.net/Air_Mixing.ac3
The second uses only the front 3 channels:

Code:
http://media.txnj.net/Pipes_Air_Mixing.ac3
TheTechGuru is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 6 Old 01-24-2012, 03:48 AM
 
dragonfyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 809
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
The combining of signals is called "superposition".

In the near field, the result will be a function of the relative position to the sources signals in terms of gain and perceived direction/orientation.

In the far field they will coalesce into a homogeneous whole where the perceived nature of the resultant superposed signals will not vary with distance and position.

...not sure where you are going with this, as you seem intent to re-discover the effects of time, gain and orientation relative to the 'listening point' that is basic to the science of psycho-acoustics and musical harmony. But have fun!
dragonfyr is offline  
post #3 of 6 Old 01-24-2012, 04:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,381
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 747 Post(s)
Liked: 1161
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTechGuru View Post

or at least that's what I call it because I have been unable to find a official name for what I am talking about. I am talking about how the sound from the pipes of a pipe organ mix and create harmony's in the air creating rich, full, clean, powerful sound.

Pipe organs are usually situated in highly reverberant rooms, and the mixing that you are speaking of is more likely happening at the walls than in the air.

Pipe organ sound is what it is because of its frequency range, the SPLs that it can generate, and because there are so many different pipes. Our church has a medium-sized organ and it has thousands of pipes, most out of sight. The longest is 16 feet long, which puts its bass range in the same category as a bass guitar. The smallest pipes look like piccolos, and have a similar sound. The whole ensemble is powered by a 10 HP 3 phase motor, so it can easily be the loudest instrument around.

IMO pipe organs were among the first practical, mainstream synthesizers. The goal of the instrument seems to be creating the experience produced by a symphony orchestra with only 1 musical instrument and one skilled musician.

There are now electronic devices that can fully recreate the sound of a large pipe organ, and can easily prove their mettle when attached to a competent speaker system.

OK, you are in love with pipe organs. Enjoy! I've lived with them up front and personal for over 55 years and I can take them or leave them. If you actually have an orchestra, leaving them is IMO a good idea.


Quote:
I am attempting to do the same thing via multiple speaker channels, right now I am limited to 5 + 1 LFE which is fine because the songs I am creating I'm using 4 right fingers and 1-2 left finger(s) totaling 5-6 channels.

You appear IMO chasing down a rabbit hole called conflating reproduction of music with production of music. They are two different things, and if you are starting out with the usual acoustic recordings of pipe organs the choice has been made for you already - you are in the reproduction game.

The idea of dedicating a channel to the pipes played by a finger may satisfy some intuitive idea, but it ignores the fact that a small number of appropriate speakers and channels can fully reproduce the sound of a pipe organ. By appropriate I mean speakers with suitable dynamic range, frequency range, and directivity.

How do you keep the notes from intermodulating each other? It is all about having enough dynamic range and relative freedom from nonlinear distortion.

I don't know what sort of speakers and amplifiers you have now that are somehow not accomplishing this, but I can tell you that appropriate choices of components from the live sound parts bin can do the job and even fairly economically.
arnyk is offline  
post #4 of 6 Old 10-29-2012, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
TheTechGuru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sorry it's been so long.

Finally had some time to work on this.

Could someone with a full 5.1 (full range speakers all around) in a large room tell me how well this comes together?

http://media.txnj.net/Praise.ac3

I recently moved and have not hooked up rear speakers yet.
TheTechGuru is offline  
post #5 of 6 Old 03-21-2013, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
TheTechGuru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I thought I'd add this to my thread here, looks like Dolby has the same idea as me, one of their recent sound tests uses air mixing.
Code:
http://txnj.net/5.1/Dolby%205.1%20Channel%20Check.m2ts

I wish it was longer.
TheTechGuru is offline  
post #6 of 6 Old 03-22-2013, 08:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JHAz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 154
seems to me the whole thing is a fool's errand since, unless you live in a sanctuary or music hall, the space in which your individual channels is going to behave entirely differently from the space in which a pipe organ performs, resulting (if your theory is correct) in an entirely different result than would occur listening to a pipe organ in an appropriate space. SInce none of the pipes are at the sides of my head when I hear an organ in a real space, I'd have to reconfigure my speakers to have any hope of recreating whatever you're after. Since it's impossible to do what you want in a real home listening environment (even if it would make a positive impact), I wouldn't bother. And you'll have to abandon your concept as soon as you have more than 5 notes at any single moment. Which should be often . . .

Moreover, IMO, recording in the fashion you suggest will not only be very difficult (surprisingly hard to sync separate fingerings on a keyboard versus simply playing the doggone chord with your hand), but, like pop records where every drum beat, every guitar chord, every phrase or word of the lyric is selected from among maybe 10 different takes of the same, the result is frequently less than the sum of its parts. Music is something that you make when you make it. Even for classical pieces, each performance has its own slight variables that make it real music. Disconnecting every note of a chord for separate recording is an invitation to mechanical sounding psuedo-music. All IMO, and to some degree IME . . .
JHAz is offline  
Reply Audio theory, Setup and Chat

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off