External amp vs AVR - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 05:51 AM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1215
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

" Within their limits " So many parts involved in a good quality amp that allows it to operate within it limits. Bridge recifiers, transformers, filter caps, output transistors.....Preamp boards......

What you don't seem to get is the fact that many of those things are commodity items these days. Bryston doesn't pay 20-40 times more than Behringer for bridge rectifiers, filter caps, circuit boards, or output transistors in like-rated power amps.

Let's be clear about this:

Bryston 14B-SST2 $9.550

Power Output: 600 watts per channel into 8 ohms; 900 watts per channel into 4 ohms No 2 ohm rating.

Behringer EP4000 $349
8 Ω per channel 550 W
4 Ω per channel 950 W
2 Ω per channel 1250 W

$9,550 / $349 = 27.4

So here's the question - can anybody do a DBT where they sound different a statistically significant number of times? Does anybody seriously think that anything but the Bryston front panel costs 27.4 times more as it comes onto the factory assembly area?

Quote:


Wall voltage, current can kill performence

So goes the pitch for power conditioners, which are for 99% of all audiophiles, just another waste of money. A good power amp has a good enough power supply that it is largely independent of what comes out of the wall plate. Some modern amps will meet spec with any line voltage from 90 to 250.
arnyk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 09:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Yosh70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sask. Canada
Posts: 2,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
^^^ Your comparison of amplifiers seems a bit on the extreme side of things. But if you must, at least compare retail to retail. The EP4000 is $740. That brings your ratio down to 12.9.

And altho I'm not wealthy enough to spend $10K on a 2 channel amplifier, I have tried the pro amp route (A500) and now house a Parasound in my equipment stand. My other family members cant hear a difference but I can.
Yosh70 is offline  
post #33 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 09:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Theresa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

^^^ Your comparison of amplifiers seems a bit on the extreme side of things. But if you must, at least compare retail to retail. The EP4000 is $740. That brings your ratio down to 12.9.

And altho I'm not wealthy enough to spend $10K on a 2 channel amplifier, I have tried the pro amp route (A500) and now house a Parasound in my equipment stand. My other family members cant hear a difference but I can.

I paid $380 for my EP4000 and there were less expensive sources I didn't know about.
Theresa is offline  
post #34 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 09:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

^^^ Your comparison of amplifiers seems a bit on the extreme side of things. But if you must, at least compare retail to retail. The EP4000 is $740. That brings your ratio down to 12.9.

And altho I'm not wealthy enough to spend $10K on a 2 channel amplifier, I have tried the pro amp route (A500) and now house a Parasound in my equipment stand. My other family members cant hear a difference but I can.

Compare purchase price to purchase price. A quick Google on the Bryston Shows $8995. The Behringer EP4000 is $349.

The math shows 1:25.7 ratio

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #35 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 10:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Yosh70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sask. Canada
Posts: 2,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
What part regarding "retail to retail" didn't you two understand? Arnyk quoted retail on the Bryston and the discounted price for the Behringer. Lets keep things in perspective here.

My own "quick google" showed me a site selling the Bryston for $7200. And if I bought one at my local A/V shop for $5970, would that factor in?

If you or I had vasts amounts of money to spend on audio equipment and purchased a pair of say, Paradigm Signature S8's, what amplifier would you choose to power them with? And dont say "A Behringer EP4000" because I know you'd be lyin'.
Yosh70 is offline  
post #36 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 11:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bigus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The South
Posts: 4,259
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 52
I like cool looking and beautiful equipment. I think the emotiva is very pleasing aesthetically except for the bright lights. I also abhor fan noise in the room. Up front I don't know what i would choose at the moment. Visible in the back of the room I would rather have a stack of emotivas or outlaws or atis or something than a stack of behringer eps. Hidden in an equipment closet I'd likely choose from any number of well measuring prosound amps.

Then again, if I had vast amounts of money I would never consider the signature s8's, or any other speaker you could buy for that matter.

Bigus is offline  
post #37 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 11:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

What part regarding "retail to retail" didn't you two understand? Arnyk quoted retail on the Bryston and the discounted price for the Behringer. Lets keep things in perspective here.

My own "quick google" showed me a site selling the Bryston for $7200. And if I bought one at my local A/V shop for $5970, would that factor in?

If you or I had vasts amounts of money to spend on audio equipment and purchased a pair of say, Paradigm Signature S8's, what amplifier would you choose to power them with? And dont say "A Behringer EP4000" because I know you'd be lyin'.

I'll play ball with what ever pricing games you want to play:

I picked up a Behringer EP2500 (same as the 4000) for $125 in box locally.

$5600 / $125 = 1:44.8

Plus I will answer your question about what amp I would use. And no I'm not lying:

I would take the $8K that the Paradigm S8's seem to cost with the $7200 that the Bryston seems to reasonably cost and with the subsequent $15,200 I would pick up a pair of RBH Sound Signature T-30LSE, an Emotiva XPA2 and THEN commence wiping the floor with the Paradigm/Bryston combo. Because dollars to donuts that is exactly what will probably happen.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #38 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 12:07 PM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

W

My own "quick google" showed me a site selling the Bryston for $7200.

I can work with that.

$7200/$349 = 20.6. 20x is still ridiculous.
arnyk is offline  
post #39 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 01:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kgveteran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 6,062
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 81
So why so many different cars if they all get you to work, really ?
kgveteran is offline  
post #40 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 02:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MrBobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 156 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_m10 View Post

Onkyo TX-NR1009: AVR
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 116.5 watts
1% distortion at 131.2 watts

Integra DTA-70.1 Amplifier:
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 119.1 watts
1% distortion at 137.7 watts

Buying by the numbers eh.

Given the same distortion numbers, I'd say they are biased the same, therefore generate a comparable amount of heat, which leaves mounting placement and heatsink surface(s) will dictate how well it dissipate heat.

Is this just a brain teaser or are your contemplating going separates, because there are other more pressing items than heat if you thinking separates like more$$$.
MrBobb is offline  
post #41 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bob_m10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBobb View Post

Buying by the numbers eh.
Is this just a brain teaser or are your contemplating going separates, because there are other more pressing items than heat if you thinking separates like more$$$.

Not at all, just trying to understand the equipment and the testing procedures. Seems from reading the thread there is not any sq differnce but there may be durability advantages to seperates. Thanks Bob
bob_m10 is offline  
post #42 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 03:56 PM
Senior Member
 
Just cruising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

So why so many different cars if they all get you to work, really ?

What does cars have to do with amps???
Just cruising is offline  
post #43 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 04:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Yosh70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sask. Canada
Posts: 2,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I'll play ball with what ever pricing games you want to play:

I picked up a Behringer EP2500 (same as the 4000) for $125 in box locally.

$5600 / $125 = 1:44.8

Plus I will answer your question about what amp I would use. And no I'm not lying:

I would take the $8K that the Paradigm S8's seem to cost with the $7200 that the Bryston seems to reasonably cost and with the subsequent $15,200 I would pick up a pair of RBH Sound Signature T-30LSE, an Emotiva XPA2 and THEN commence wiping the floor with the Paradigm/Bryston combo. Because dollars to donuts that is exactly what will probably happen.

OMG, are you for real? What pricing game? I said "RETAIL TO RETAIL".
Now you bring an older Behringer model into the mix that you picked up cheap and now throw that into the equation? Should I bring Brystons 14BSST into this and then we can keep going and going....*face palm*

And I never asked you what speakers to purchase.....I asked what amp you would purchase in that scenario. Pretty simple.
But good god man, if you want to purchase $15K speakers and "wipe up the floor" against a B/P system, then don't let us hold you back. It doesn't bother me.
Yosh70 is offline  
post #44 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 04:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Yosh70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sask. Canada
Posts: 2,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just cruising View Post

What does cars have to do with amps???

A $100K Corvette Z06 will get you to work just like a $10K Hyundai Accent....both can drive you to the supermarket, take you to your favorite restaurant and visit the the inlaws on the weekend. No difference really.
I mean if we're comparing apples to apples.
Yosh70 is offline  
post #45 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 04:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Just cruising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

A $100K Corvette Z06 will get you to work just like a $10K Hyundai Accent....both can drive you to the supermarket, take you to your favorite restaurant and visit the the inlaws on the weekend. No difference really.
I mean if we're comparing apples to apples.

If I really have to answer this it says a lot about your ability to evaluate the differences.

Cars are design around many criteria. That is why you have sports cars, pony cars, hotrods, touring cars, SUVs, SAV, and so on. All are design to meet a very specific market desire. However, HiFi amps have the same set of goals to have a flat power response across the audio band, drive loads within a standard value (most speakers or 4 to 8 ohms) to have a inaudible level of distortion, to run off the same input voltage, etc… The design criteria while achieved thru different designs all point to the same set of goals. Amps and cars are nothing alike and if you don’t believe me go listen to your car!
Just cruising is offline  
post #46 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 05:03 PM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1215
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

So why so many different cars if they all get you to work, really ?

Simple, the differences in automotive performance and opulence are vast in comparison to the differences in power amplifier sound quality.

A mid-sized, mid-priced car runs about $25K. Very very few cars run more than $100,000. That is only a 4:1 range.
arnyk is offline  
post #47 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 05:09 PM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

A $100K Corvette Z06 will get you to work just like a $10K Hyundai Accent....both can drive you to the supermarket, take you to your favorite restaurant and visit the the inlaws on the weekend.

Your comparison includes only a few of the relevant characteristics of cars.

Your comparison is also seriously wrong on price, because according to the Hyundai web site the Accent runs from about $12,500 to $16,000. According to the Corvette Z06 web site, it starts at $76,000.

You should be ashamed of making all these mistakes!
arnyk is offline  
post #48 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 07:42 PM
Member
 
Perry R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Lindbrook Alberta Canada
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

According to the Corvette Z06 web site, it starts at $76,000.

Your assuming everyone that drives or purchases a Corvette lives and buys in the USA.....Yosh doesnt.

Check foreign pricing......no mistake......then look up this word "Tax"
Perry R is offline  
post #49 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 07:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Yosh70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sask. Canada
Posts: 2,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Lol I thought you guys would respond in this manner....I guess its ok to compare a very high end amplifier with one of the cheapest ones on the market and say theres no difference. If a $9K amp has the same audio characteristics as a $350 one, maybe you should let Bryston know they have a strong competitor.

Quote:


Your comparison is also seriously wrong on price

I'm sure you'll let it slide since your prices were misaligned as well. And just a fyi, a loaded Z06 here in Canada will sticker for over $90K plus taxes. Maybe over MSRP but thats what the dealer can get away with.
Yosh70 is offline  
post #50 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 07:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bigus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The South
Posts: 4,259
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post


A $100K Hyundai Accent with a Corvette Z06 fiberglass body will get you to work just like a $10K Hyundai Accent....both can drive you to the supermarket, take you to your favorite restaurant and visit the the inlaws on the weekend. No difference really.
I mean if we're comparing apples to apples.

Fixed.

Bigus is offline  
post #51 of 57 Old 02-22-2012, 08:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Yosh70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sask. Canada
Posts: 2,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Fixed.

Lol, nice!
Yosh70 is offline  
post #52 of 57 Old 02-23-2012, 05:15 AM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

Lol I thought you guys would respond in this manner....

You mean that you intentionally inserted all of those significant errors into your false claims for me to correct? Pretty strange!

Quote:


I guess its ok to compare a very high end amplifier with one of the cheapest ones on the market and say theres no difference.

Of course I never said that there was no difference between the two amps. For one thing, the Bryston comes a lot closer to being a piece of audio sculpture than the fairly industrial-looking Behringer. Its build quality would probably impress many naive people. It might even perform a little better on the test bench.

Quote:


If a $9K amp has the same audio characteristics as a $350 one, maybe you should let Bryston know they have a strong competitor.

It appears to me that Bryston are actually quite skilled at marketing and need no assistance from me. Selling a power amp for upwards of 20 times more cash than a sonically equivalent product is really quite an impressive feat of marketing!


Quote:


I'm sure you'll let it slide since your prices were misaligned as well. And just a fyi, a loaded Z06 here in Canada will sticker for over $90K plus taxes. Maybe over MSRP but thats what the dealer can get away with.

This is a U.S. based forum and so its natural reference for prices is the US. You said nothing about Canada in your post. So now you are resorting to ambush tactics to cover up your claims, which BTW have changed significantly even just within the context of Canadian prices since I started scrutinizing them.
arnyk is offline  
post #53 of 57 Old 02-23-2012, 05:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

OMG, are you for real? What pricing game? I said "RETAIL TO RETAIL".

You most certainly said "Retail to Retail". I picked up an EP2500, that when you remove the cover is identical to the EP4000, for $125. Included warranty even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

Now you bring an older Behringer model into the mix that you picked up cheap and now throw that into the equation? Should I bring Brystons 14BSST into this and then we can keep going and going....*face palm*

The EP2500 = EP4000. Just like when Lexicon rebadged the Oppo. A new silkscreen on the front of a product does not a new product make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

And I never asked you what speakers to purchase.....I asked what amp you would purchase in that scenario. Pretty simple.
But good god man, if you want to purchase $15K speakers and "wipe up the floor" against a B/P system, then don't let us hold you back. It doesn't bother me.

Well, you mentioned a few things:

1. Speakers
2. Amps
3. Costs

I believe that since those particular cans of worms were opened that a reformulation of the above is fair game.

Unless you want to postulate that $8K speakers driven with $7K of amp is going to out class $14K of speaker driven by $800 of amp.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #54 of 57 Old 02-23-2012, 06:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Why do car analogs come up in amplification threads? There are tangible, measurable, metrics involved with cars and all can be interpreted one way or another based on consumer need.

You can say a Z06 does a quarter mile quicker than a Prius. You can say a Prius gets better fuel economy. Depending on what type of driver you are you may want the Corvette or you may want the Prius.

Trying to say the Bryston is a Z06 to something like the Emotiva XPA-2 is to a Hyundia Elantra is just absurd.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #55 of 57 Old 02-23-2012, 10:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Yosh70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sask. Canada
Posts: 2,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

You said nothing about Canada in your post. So now you are resorting to ambush tactics to cover up your claims.

I wasn't going to reply and pick apart your post like you and Jujitsu did mine.....I'm sure it gives you two a feeling of self worth.

But I thought it was kind of funny that you think I was resorting to ambush tactics when my location clearly states I'm from Canada.....its quite clear that didn't register with you considering this is a good ol' U.S. of A. site.
Yosh70 is offline  
post #56 of 57 Old 02-24-2012, 06:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

I wasn't going to reply and pick apart your post like you and Jujitsu did mine....

Sorry about laying the Jujitsu down. When everything is distilled down we are talking about a certain range of $$. Simply offering up that SQ, just might be, 95% in the speakers. Just back them with competent, reasonable cost electronics.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #57 of 57 Old 02-24-2012, 06:37 AM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

I wasn't going to reply and pick apart your post like you and Jujitsu did mine.

You are obfuscating the fact that even if the context is Canada, your price information was wrong.

Quote:
....I'm sure it gives you two a feeling of self worth.

More like irritation due to your post's distortions and dissembling which now appear to be habitual.
arnyk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off