Crossover setup - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 02-24-2012, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's my setup

Yamaha rx-v571
Polk Monitor 30 Front (+/- at 63hz)
Polk CS1 (65hz)
Sony B1000 Rear (Sony doesn't say - claims response starts at 80)
Sony wp890 Sub

What should I set the crossover at? It only lets me pick one(60/80/90/100/110)

Thanks!
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post #2 of 30 Old 02-24-2012, 08:45 PM
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Just to clarify, on this receiver you have a "large/small" option in addition to the crossover? And anything set to "small" uses the crossover?

Generically, I'd pick 80hz, and set everything to small. Nothing you have is likely to hit extremely low with any real impact, and you've got a sub, so as long as you get the levels close enough (or spot on, if you have measurement equipment), it should work just dandy.
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post #3 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 07:42 AM
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Do you mean the subwoofer crossover setting of the receiver or the control ON the subwoofer?

I suggest you run the front speakers large, set the receiver subwoofer settiing to 150 Hz or its highest setting (which effectively takes that out of the equation), and then adjust the subwoofer's crossover knob for the desired performance.

You would probably need to set it for around 60-80 to start with and play with it.

BTW-
You could really improve the system's performance with the Monitor 40 speakers in the front and the Monitor 30 in the rear, I think.

The Monitor 40s are much better speakers for the front, and the Monitor 30s will give you a big upgrade in the rear compared to the Sony.





Quote:
Originally Posted by crcostel View Post

Here's my setup

Yamaha rx-v571
Polk Monitor 30 Front (+/- at 63hz)
Polk CS1 (65hz)
Sony B1000 Rear (Sony doesn't say - claims response starts at 80)
Sony wp890 Sub

What should I set the crossover at? It only lets me pick one(60/80/90/100/110)

Thanks!

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post #4 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

Just to clarify, on this receiver you have a "large/small" option in addition to the crossover? And anything set to "small" uses the crossover?

Generically, I'd pick 80hz, and set everything to small. Nothing you have is likely to hit extremely low with any real impact, and you've got a sub, so as long as you get the levels close enough (or spot on, if you have measurement equipment), it should work just dandy.

+1

80hz and small is probably your best best

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post #5 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I suggest you run the front speakers large, set the receiver subwoofer settiing to 150 Hz or its highest setting (which effectively takes that out of the equation), and then adjust the subwoofer's crossover knob for the desired performance.

You don't understand how an AVR operates. What "receiver subwoofer setting" are you talking about? If the front speakers are set to LARGE nothing is sent to the subwoofer from the front channels. Nothing. Got it? NOTHING. And there is no "receiver subwoofer setting" available if the front speakers are set to LARGE.

I have asked you several times now to explain how you would configure an AVR to do what you propose and you have yet to reply. I've even told you how to accomplish what I think it is you are trying to accomplish. Yet you still continue to give not just what is errant advice but what is 'not even possible advice'.

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post #6 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I suggest you run the front speakers large

Combined with the speakers in question, having a -3dB of only 63Hz, this is terrible advice.

Please do a refresher on the basics of modern av systems if you are going to continue making so many errant suggestions.

Quote:


set the receiver subwoofer settiing to 150 Hz or its highest setting (which effectively takes that out of the equation)

It is much preferred to set the sub xo to its highest frequency or disable it altogether and use the avr controls instead.

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post #7 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 08:44 AM
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^^ commsysman's suggestion is a bad one otherwise. I'm pretty sure that the rx-v571 has only one crossover setting for all the speakers--it can't be set individually. So it would be impossible to match the speaker roll off with the sub for all the speakers with his method.

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post #8 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Do you mean the subwoofer crossover setting of the receiver or the control ON the subwoofer?

I suggest you run the front speakers large, set the receiver subwoofer settiing to 150 Hz or its highest setting (which effectively takes that out of the equation), and then adjust the subwoofer's crossover knob for the desired performance.

You would probably need to set it for around 60-80 to start with and play with it.

I've had a chance to think about this some more, and this method will never work well with the reasoning you are using (I'm ignoring everyone else's objections at the moment) unless someone has all identical speakers in a 5.1 or 7.1 setup.

Most people have front L/R speakers that are lower in frequency response than the rest of the speakers in their setup. So by setting the sub crossover to match the roll off of the front speakers, the sub is no longer producing frequencies above that. Thus, every other speaker in the surround setup will have a dip or hole in frequency response between say the -3db roll off of the front L/R and what the other speakers' -3db roll off is. For most people, that would be very undesirable in comparison to simply using the internal bass management of the receiver.

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post #9 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 11:22 AM
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I'm with you guys on this. I don't know why commsysman keeps suggesting this kind of crossover advice. I have read several threads where he suggests this. It doesn't make any sense.
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post #10 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

BTW-
You could really improve the system's performance with the Monitor 40 speakers in the front and the Monitor 30 in the rear, I think.

The Monitor 40s are much better speakers for the front, and the Monitor 30s will give you a big upgrade in the rear compared to the Sony.

I would have loved to, but I don't have space for 40s in the front.
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post #11 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

+1

80hz and small is probably your best best

Thanks! And thank you to all that helped
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post #12 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I've had a chance to think about this some more, and this method will never work well with the reasoning you are using (I'm ignoring everyone else's objections at the moment) unless someone has all identical speakers in a 5.1 or 7.1 setup.

Most people have front L/R speakers that are lower in frequency response than the rest of the speakers in their setup. So by setting the sub crossover to match the roll off of the front speakers, the sub is no longer producing frequencies above that. Thus, every other speaker in the surround setup will have a dip or hole in frequency response between say the -3db roll off of the front L/R and what the other speakers' -3db roll off is. For most people, that would be very undesirable in comparison to simply using the internal bass management of the receiver.

Right, but you haven't thought it through entirely. There are 2 ways to try and accomplish what commsysman is recommending. And there are issues involved with both methods.


#1.) If the subwoofer is to be connected conventionally to an AVR's sub pre-out, in order to send a full-range (LARGE) signal to the front channels as well as route front channel bass to the subwoofer, then a 'double-bass' setting (LFE+Main, LFE+, Plus, Double Bass, etc.) must be used. Some AVRs allow one to still select a low-pass cutoff frequency for the front channel info which is duplicated at the subwoofer when this setting is used. With other AVRs it is a bit of a mystery as to what front channel frequencies are routed in duplicate to the subwoofer. At any rate, this is the only way to do what commsysman recommends while still using the AVR's sub pre-out.

And, yes, when using this setting ('double bass'), and adjusting the subwoofer's own low-pass filter to the front speakers' roll-off, you risk truncating and completely dropping the rerouted bass from any channels to which a crossover is being applied, somewhere between the subwoofer's low-pass setting and the crossover that is being applied to those other channels. But, more importantly, you will also truncate the LFE channel, which contains info up to 120Hz, at the subwoofer's low-pass setting. So, for example, suppose you were applying an 80Hz crossover to the center and surround channels while leaving the front channels running full-range with a 'double bass' setting. And suppose the low-pass value that was required at the subwoofer was 60Hz. In this case, all the rerouted bass between the sub's 60Hz low-pass setting and the 80Hz crossover setting from those channels to which an 80Hz crossover is being applied would be completely dropped and lost. And, everything in the LFE channel between the sub's 60Hz low-pass setting and 120Hz would also be completely dropped and lost. This is an entire octave of LFE info.


#2.) The other, and probably better, way to accomplish the setup commsysman describes would be to connect the sub to the AVR's front channels, not to the AVR's sub pre-out, and configuring the AVR as having NO SUB connected. This could be accomplished by either connecting the AVR's front channel pre-outs (if present) to the sub's L/R pre-ins or via a speaker-level connection from the AVR's front channel speaker outputs to the sub's speaker-level inputs (provided the sub has them). Then the AVR would be configured as having NO SUB connected. The subwoofer's low-pass filter would still be adjusted to the front speakers' roll-off. This NO SUB setting would reroute the LFE channel and any bass from those channels to which a crossover was being applied into the front channels. The mix of front channel bass, the LFE channel info, and the rerouted bass from those channels to which a crossover was being applied would then be spread across the front speakers and subwoofer according to the front speaker's low-end capability and the sub's low-pass setting. None of the LFE channel and none of the bass from those channels to which a crossover was being applied would be truncated and lost with this sort of setup. What this sort of NO SUB configuration does do, however, is that in addition to the front channel bass that is already being sent there, it routes the full brunt of the LFE channel into the front channels along with any bass from those channels to which a crossover is being applied. Depending upon the front speakers' capabilities and fortitude, this can be problematic.


Ultimately, though, there is really no reason not to use the bass management capabilities provided by an AVR. In doing so, there are multiple benefits to be had at the speakers, at the AVR's amplifiers, and at the subwoofer itself.

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post #13 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 05:20 PM
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Miles, thanks for taking the time to write up what most of were thinking.
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post #14 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Right, but you haven't thought it through entirely.

No. You are wrong. I though through as far as I could based on what I know (lol).

Thanks for a great explanation

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post #15 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

No. You are wrong. I though through as far as I could based on what I know (lol).

Thanks for a great explanation

Pretty screwy that WE know more about what commsysman is recommending than he does. Or more than he cares to admit, anyway.


In fairness, if you look back far enough you will find where I used to sometimes recommend and even defend what I described above in #2. If one is absolutely certain they understand the ramifications, at the both the speakers and the amps, of sending all that bass to the front channels, it CAN be made to work and work well. In some instances (usually, very capable mains), it can be useful.

One thing it does provide is a truly continuously variable low-pass setting for the subwoofer as opposed to the fixed incremental values that most AVRs provide at 40, 60, 80, 100, 120, etc. Hz. In some cases the subwoofer's low-pass filter's slope might be more amenable to the natural roll-off of the speakers as opposed to the fixed slopes provided by AVRs' crossover filters which, incidentally and not trivially, are usually at 12dB/octave for the high-pass component and 24dB/octave for the low-pass component. The low-pass filter slope incorporated in subwoofers varies and might be 12dB/octave, 24dB/octave, and even as steep as 36dB/octave. With a truly continuously variable low-pass available at the subwoofer and an essentially fixed in-room roll-off of the front speakers, a different sort of adjustment is available that AVRs' crossover's don't really provide.

And for stereo subwoofers that bass management scheme can be particularly useful.

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post #16 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

And for stereo subwoofers that bass management scheme can be particularly useful.

This is the only place where I can see this being useful, especially if you have an AVR with pre-outs but only a single subwoofer output. It gets somewhat "nightmarish" to wire everything, but can have advantages in that scenario.
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post #17 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

This is the only place where I can see this being useful, especially if you have an AVR with pre-outs but only a single subwoofer output. It gets somewhat "nightmarish" to wire everything, but can have advantages in that scenario.

Well, provided the subwoofers have speaker-level inputs, a speaker-level connection can be used to set up stereo subwoofers, too.

And, as I pointed out, this bass management scheme (NO SUB) does provide a type of adjustment that an AVR's crossover doesn't and can't really provide. That being the ability to adjust the sub's continuously variable low-pass to the speakers' fixed in-room roll-off. With an AVR's crossover, of course, there is no way to set the sub's low-pass filter setting and the speakers' high-pass filter setting to different values.

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post #18 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Pretty screwy that WE know more about what commsysman is recommending than he does. Or more than he cares to admit, anyway.

Everybody that has all this experience on AVS keeps teaching me stuff. Can't imagine why someone would not want to take advantage of that.

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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

In fairness, if you look back far enough you will find where I used to sometimes recommend and even defend what I described above in #2. . . .

It makes sense. But to do this right, wouldn't you want to use a mic and REW? Seems it would be hard to earball it and get the sub gain level and the sub crossover frequency correct. That's what I did with my speakers, sub, and HK 3390 in my 2.1 setup because there's no bass management, but at times I wonder if I have it right.

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post #19 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 08:29 PM
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You guys are all a joke. You'd fail the basic classes on amp theory.






Someone had to say it hahaha

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #20 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

You guys are all a joke. You'd fail the basic classes on amp theory.

WTF is "amp theory"?

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post #21 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

WTF is "amp theory"?

Aww you didn't get my joke

Read some of the other crossover help threads and you'll see lol

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #22 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

WTF is "amp theory"?

He's talking about one of commsysman's classes. Haven't you been told you would fail one yet? LOL

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post #23 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

It makes sense. But to do this right, wouldn't you want to use a mic and REW? Seems it would be hard to earball it and get the sub gain level and the sub crossover frequency correct. That's what I did with my speakers, sub, and HK 3390 in my 2.1 setup because there's no bass management, but at times I wonder if I have it right.

Well, sure, generally, the more tools one has, the better, probably. Still, without tools there is nothing wrong with adjusting 'to taste'. And realize, too, that not everyone necessarily prefers what measures "best". Some people like a bass bump. Or whatever.

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post #24 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Aww you didn't get my joke

Read some of the other crossover help threads and you'll see lol

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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

He's talking about one of commsysman's classes. Haven't you been told you would fail one yet? LOL

Oh

In that case, WTF is "amp theory"?

And I put thumbtacks in commsysman's seat.

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post #25 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 09:27 PM
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And how many subs allow you to set the xo to second order for a sealed main and fourth order for a ported main? How many have delay settings? Not all even have variable all pass filters, many just have 0 and 180 options.

Still almost always preferable to high pass filter the mains to limit distortion from overexcursion of the typically displacement limited midbass drivers. Headroom is increased, distortion is lowered, and integration with the sub is typically easier. If you really know what you are doing and have capable outboard filters an exception may be made. I highly doubt either was true when the advice was offered here.

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post #26 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
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And how many subs allow you to set the xo to second order for a sealed main and fourth order for a ported main?

None that I know of. Nor do speakers, sealed or ported, ever exhibit those exact roll-offs, in-room. Subs and speakers in 2-channel setups are almost always adjusted this way. The sub's variable low-pass is adjusted to the speakers' natural roll-off and/or 'to taste'. You work with what you have and you can't really do anything to change the speakers' roll-off characteristics or the sub's low-pass's slope.

You realize that most AVR's apply a 12dB/octave high pass and a 24dB/octave low-pass, right? And very rarely do the user's speakers exhibit the requisite and corresponding 12dB/octave roll-off exactly at the crossover frequency to allow this to work properly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Still almost always preferable to high pass filter the mains to limit distortion from overexcursion of the typically displacement limited midbass drivers. Headroom is increased, distortion is lowered, and integration with the sub is typically easier.

Right. That's all a given. There are still people who will insist, for whatever reason, upon running their front speakers in a multichannel setup full-range, with the sub filling in where the speakers roll-off. That may not be the best or correct way to do things, but if someone is going to do that, there IS a proper way to do it.

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post #27 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 10:08 PM
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Agreed.

And the slope issue is what thx certified speakers addressed. You don't have to go thx, but sealed are generally easier to accommodate in this regard for that reason.

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post #28 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

And the slope issue is what thx certified speakers addressed. You don't have to go thx, but sealed are generally easier to accommodate in this regard for that reason.

Right. Although "addressed" is not really correct. Neither was the chicken nor the egg. They both came to be, together.

I still don't really understand exactly how or why this '12/24' slope thing still persists even on the so much more common non-THX equipment that is available, nowadays, and in the face of almost everyone using ported speakers.

/shrugs

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post #29 of 30 Old 02-25-2012, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Well, provided the subwoofers have speaker-level inputs, a speaker-level connection can be used to set up stereo subwoofers, too.

And, as I pointed out, this bass management scheme (NO SUB) does provide a type of adjustment that an AVR's crossover doesn't and can't really provide. That being the ability to adjust the sub's continuously variable low-pass to the speakers' fixed in-room roll-off. With an AVR's crossover, of course, there is no way to set the sub's low-pass filter setting and the speakers' high-pass filter setting to different values.

Oh of course. We could just put a sub on every channel in that scenario and throw caution to the wind! I remember a B&W brochure touting that model - it was either a 15" or 18" subwoofer to go along with every single channel (and each speaker had a pair of 10" woofers to begin with; this was for EVERY channel in a 7.1 system). You mentioned a "bass hump" earlier...

The only reason I'd preference the pre-out arrangement is it probably saves wire (this assumes you're still putting the sub in an "ideal" spot and just have to live with less-than-perfect management for whatever reason - it's "neater" to just run from the source to the sub, and then to the speakers independently, than a huge daisy-chain).

I agree with what Bigus said too, with reservations: I'm not completely sold on the headroom argument.

And regarding the "slope thing" - I thought (and let me qualify: it's late) it also had to do with the decoder's whims or something along those lines (I know there's a "historic reason" behind this, is what I'm saying). I'm sure with fancy enough equipment you can side-step it, and do whatever you like. Probably a lot more hassle than it's worth.
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post #30 of 30 Old 02-26-2012, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Oh

In that case, WTF is "amp theory"?

And I put thumbtacks in commsysman's seat.

I don't think that the warden will be back in this thread now that the inmates are running the asylum

Seriously, he seems incapable of ever acknowledging part/all of what he said was wrong, so I doubt he'll be back to post here in this thread again.

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