24/192 Music Downloads and why they make no sense - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

LOL, but vinyl does degrade the sound. The frequency response is skewed, noticeable amounts of distortion and various noises are added, and channel separation is reduced considerably which narrows imaging. I understand that people are offended when these truths are pointed out, but they are still truths.

--Ethan

Look Ethan, what sounds better? Amir telling his wife he's going to work or telling her he's going to argue with Arny on AVS?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #182 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

So he measured his room and the optimal place for the subs happened to be identical with the speakers! wow

"He" didn't measure it. And nothing just "happened." Don't confuse your situation with his. His entire room was designed by a professional. When you take a systems approach, including full design of a room, you can do things that are different with better results.

To answer your question briefly, it is the other way around. If you have two subs ("four" in his case) and you like them to be in front, there is an optimal placement that reduces the first three modes. You put your "subs" there and then the rest of speakers can sit on "top" of them. Since the room's impact is the most in low frequencies, that strategy works. BTW, this assumes mono bass which is a fair assumption.

The reason this is normally a problem for people is that because they don't have a luxury of pulling the speakers so far into the room. Mike has a dedicated space that is huge, and built to spec. So not a problem for him. Randomly place your speakers and yes, you will have the problem you mention.

Can you do better than his configuration? Yes. If you can have more subs and freedom to place them, and use proper computer modeling instead of simple calculators even experts use, you can do better. You can see an example of this in our reference home theater where computational fluid dynamics (CFD) was used to optimize the number and location of subs (scroll down to "Sound for Video" slides). It is a more critical thing in our application because we are trying to get smooth response across multiple seats which is not a goal for a single listener situations. The nice thing about CFD modelling is that it can take all the characteristics of the room into account including doors, furniture, non-rectangular rooms, different wall/construction material, etc. These are all things that are ignored when simple modeling is used, hoping to get close.

What did I say about accousticians not singing from the same tune? See how they confused you? Suggest reading Dr. Toole's work to learn more. The stereo set up is covered by him.

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post #183 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Look Ethan, what sounds better? Amir telling his wife he's going to work or telling her he's going to argue with Arny on AVS?

Once more, people reflect their issues onto others. Here is the situation at our house:



If you had not taken computer privileges from your wife, you too could have enjoyed the same and not become a victim of this:



Thankfully there is a solution for you:


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post #184 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 11:19 AM
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So, which sounds better?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #185 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

Right, the real hate came from others.



LOL, that's great. But that was 2007. I guess Mike learned his lesson (not), but at least realized he cannot defend his beliefs using logic and listening tests.

--Ethan

One would have thought faced with clear evidence, he would start questioning his dogma. In stead the only lesson he takes is refusing to get involved in similar challenges to make sure his dogma can not be refuted and just repeating his stomp speech like a politician irrespective of the evidence you present.
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post #186 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

Sure, a few very well heeled or more savvy audiophiles do have acoustic treatment. But by and large most do not, even the ones who have spent thousands of dollars on useless trinkets like the ART bowls and Shunyata products etc.

That is an assertion, not data . So I thought we get some. On Whatsbestforum's member gallery area, we have 42 picture/system threads. I just went through them and counted which had purpose added acoustic treatments, and which not. Note that if they used nature elements like curtains and such, I counted them as NOT having acoustic treatment. Here are the numbers:

Acoustic Treatment: 25
No treatment: 15
Not a room thread: 2

So throwing out the 2 that didn't relate, we have total of 40 examples. Out of those, 63% have room treatment, 37% do not. The above is a bit unfair because there were frugal DIYs showing their labs and such which naturally didn't have anything but electronics but even with that, it shows that nearly twice as many of the type of audiophiles you don't like, have treatment.

Now, would you be so kind and tell me what percentage of so called "objectivists" have such treatment?

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Yes, unlike basic audio engineering, acoustics is as much an art as a science.

If it is that subjective, don't you think that is the reason so many people avoid it? And is there really multiple versions of "audio truth" that you can interject your creative part in there to answer it? How is that different than someone liking an LP vs CD sound?

I think you are using this as a crutch. Acoustics is about physics. Physics is not art. What becomes "art" is that people start to guess as to what the physics are, as analyzing the problem itself gets hard without tools and training (and even with them).

Quote:


Not that there's universal agreement on all non-acoustics aspects of audio. Some say cables matter, others say don't waste your money. Some say Class A amps sound best, and others say Class AB and Class D can sound just as good and show measurements to prove it.

But in an area where we can clearly measure and see differences, you say getting it right is an "art." How am I supposed to know you are the best artist? If I asked Floyd whether a typical living room with furniture, bookcase, carpet on the floor and such must have room treatment, he will say NO if you use the right speaker. Yet you would say that is wrong as indicated by the opening line in this post. Art is supposed to explain this or is one of you wrong?

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post #187 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I love what little I can see if the chair at primary viewing position, do you have any idea the furniture maker?

Thanks in advance.

Apparently one must be either insulting or disagree in order to participate in this conversation, so I will perhaps get a response in this way:

Where can I download good 24/192 music? (this should insult at least a few)

Now amirm, you windbag, do you know any of the details on the chair your friend Steve Williams has in his media room?

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post #188 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

One would have thought faced with clear evidence, he would start questioning his dogma.

You think Arny is questioning his dogma? Or he is right "absolutely" and therefore the questions are wrong? You have to accept that Arny is just as dogmatic as Mike is. Are you an objective observer and can answer this question? Or should we dismiss your observation as biased and ignore it?

Quote:


In stead the only lesson he takes is refusing to get involved in similar challenges to make sure his dogma can not be refuted and just repeating his stomp speech like a politician irrespective of the evidence you present.

Story of my life dealing with a few of you in this forum .

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post #189 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Apparently one must be either insulting or disagree in order to participate in this conversation, so I will perhaps get a response in this way:

Where can I download good 24/192 music? (this should insult at least a few)

Now amirm, you windbag, do you know any of the details on the chair your friend Steve Williams has in his media room?

Nowhere.

You can download high-rez from HD Tracks, but from what I know they are not 24/192. More like SACD quality.

Now you do realize the entire thread was about that you don't need 24/192, but that is a side-note.
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post #190 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Apparently one must be either insulting or disagree in order to participate in this conversation, so I will perhaps get a response in this way:

Where can I download good 24/192 music? (this should insult at least a few)

You need lots more practice on the insulting front. My skin is so thick now that I don't even notice them until I am called a rookie half a dozen times .

Answering your question by making an exception anyway, click on this google search and follow the first link for a nice list of all the sites:https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...39l460l2-2l2l0

Quote:


Now amirm, you windbag, do you know any of the details on the chair your friend Steve Williams has in his media room?

This windbag asked Steve last night . He didn't remember the brand and said he would find out today and let me know.

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post #191 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

You think Arny is questioning his dogma? Or he is right "absolutely" and therefore the questions are wrong? You have to accept that Arny is just as dogmatic as Mike is. Are you an objective observer and can answer this question? Or should we dismiss your observation as biased and ignore it?

Asserting well-established and repeatable claims based on sound logic and evidence is not a dogma.

OTOH rejecting knowledge and logic is not open-minded, but it can be good for business.
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post #192 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 12:44 PM
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Yes, of course - it was meant to be an insult to gain attention to my real question about the chair in the pic that amirm posted. I have no interest in enhancements I can't hear.

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post #193 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

This windbag asked Steve last night . He didn't remember the brand and said he would find out today and let me know.

Thank you! I think you realize the windbag adjective was purely for fun.

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post #194 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

One would have thought faced with clear evidence, he would start questioning his dogma. In stead the only lesson he takes is refusing to get involved in similar challenges to make sure his dogma can not be refuted and just repeating his stomp speech like a politician irrespective of the evidence you present.

This sums it up perfectly. And not just for Mike Lavigne, but for many other arrogant 'phooles too. More than once I've changed my opinion based on something someone posted in a forum, or told me in person. But with these guys, when you patiently explain why they're wrong and what's actually correct, they just get PO'd and insult you. And in my case ban me from their forums.

--Ethan

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post #195 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

Asserting well-established and repeatable claims based on sound logic and evidence is not a dogma.

Of course it is when the soundness of said logic and knowledge are faulty. The man can't even describe what distortion you can get from using fixed steps and calls that distortion "an audiophile myth."

Just today, he claimed an AES paper that used listening tests to determine dynamic range of music to be theoretical. This is what he said word for word: "It's all based on theory, not hands-on practice. If the authors had gone into studios and checked out masters and tracks, they would have told a completely different story."

If it is not dogma that drives him to not read the article, or even my preface, do tell what it is.

He tells me I should go and consult my ex-chief audio architect at Microsoft, JJ. This is what JJ has said about him:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoeditor View Post

I missed this sad little piece of venom yesterday. You really are a nasty piece of work, Mr. Krueger. You remind me of a conversation I once had with JJ when your name came up. He shook his head and pondered aloud on the fact that an unreasonable advocate for a reasonable position is the worst of all worlds, or words to that effect.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Problem with your post is that you are not objective. So your opinion in this regard doesn't add anything to the conversation.

Quote:


Rejecting knowledge and logic is not open-minded, but it can be good for business.

What business is that? Ethan selling room treatment? Arny defending a lifetime of dumbing down audio performance? Or Monty, the author of the paper in question for this thread, having developed a lossy compression codec and is feeling unsatisfied that folks are going past that level of fidelity now that disk space and bandwidth are not an issue? Everyone is a saint and logical but the folks on the other side?

What explains your snide remarks regarding Mike's room when you won't show us yours? What logic demonstrates that? Put up your room and your knowledge of room acoustics for us to examine.

Let me break the news to you. The vocals in these forums are not saints. I am not and neither are you. So let's dispense with the superficial arguments. Arny has a point of view in audio. I am able to challenge that have done for a year now in this forum. I have done that not with opinion. Not with insults. But with huge amount of external references and data. Whatever entitlement you think he has to be right, is not there.

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post #196 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Out of those, 63% have room treatment, 37% do not.

Excellent, though WBF members tend to be more knowledgeable than most audiophiles. And many of your members are also professionals. I don't know the numbers, obviously, but I have counted the "related equipment" boxes for reviews in Stereophile, and less than half of their staff reviewers have treatment. One guy has every dumb tweak in the world, and has stated in his columns he doesn't "believe" in treatment. But it's not just audiophiles. Even home studio people don't usually have anything more than inadequate foam if they have anything at all. It's a universal problem.

Quote:


I think you are using this as a crutch. Acoustics is about physics. Physics is not art. What becomes "art" is that people start to guess as to what the physics are, as analyzing the problem itself gets hard without tools and training (and even with them).

No, the art part is deciding when to use diffusion versus absorption, how much absorption is "too much" to balance getting the frequency response as accurate as possible versus risking making the room dead sounding, and balancing acoustic improvement with budget and acceptable appearance. And so forth.

--Ethan

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post #197 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

And in my case ban me from their forums.

--Ethan

Who banned you from what forum? WBF? You mean still having a dedicate forum where you can post whatever you like, with us policing it to make sure no one is even remotely is disrespectful to you, and giving you the title of "WBF Technical Expert (Acoustics)" with this description of your forum:

"Ethan Winer heads RealTraps, a leading manufacturer of acoustic treatment products used in recording studios, home theaters, and hi-fi listening rooms. If you have questions about any aspect of room acoustics, this is the place to ask."

with clear advertising of your business and us not getting a cent from it, was not enough? That translates to us "banning" you? Good grief.

If I was given the option on AVS to have my dedicated forum that way and all the same conditions, I would gladly take it in a heartbeat. Heck, I have done exactly that in the heat of HD DVD and BD battle on AVS. Wishes of the forum owners is important to me. I appreciate that it is not yours but please don't keep rat hole us this way with misleading characterizations.

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post #198 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 01:33 PM
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And Amir wonders why I avoid WBF.

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post #199 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Good grief.

.

You know I have never really understood that expression on its face. I mean really what is good about grief?

P.S. Just thought I would try to break the sting of diatribes by all parties concerned.
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post #200 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

...with clear advertising of your business and us not getting a cent from it, was not enough?

Sorry I haven't checked, but are you a paid advertiser on AVS? The link in your signature also advertises.
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post #201 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

You know I have never really understood that expression on its face. I mean really what is good about grief?

P.S. Just thought I would try to break the sting of diatribes by all parties concerned.

. The phrase as I heard it comes from old England. It started as "Good God" but then it was thought to be impolite to use God's name that way. So as with other phrases like it, folks thought of other words that started with G and grief became it. What made it popular in current culture was this little guy:


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post #202 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 02:33 PM
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What about, 'Holy ****'.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #203 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 02:44 PM
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What about, 'Holy ****'.

That was changed to "holy cow".
In a digital format, it's no different.
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post #204 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 04:14 PM
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where can ue ven download music in 24/192 anyway all i see in gogole is "24/192 is useless" results
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post #205 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 04:18 PM
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Amir asks:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

You think Arny is questioning his dogma?

I answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

Asserting well-established and repeatable claims based on sound logic and evidence is not a dogma.

Amir doesn't like the answer, so:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Problem with your post is that you are not objective. So your opinion in this regard doesn't add anything to the conversation.

But what could I expect? Anyway It gets better:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Put up your room and your knowledge of room acoustics for us to examine.

Much expected resume request arrives. Is this an invitation for a duel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

You are in the industry and respected member of our technical community. You should not act like general membership let alone go past them in calling for a duel. But you did

This is not related, but just for laughs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I do not want to post a link to WBF

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I post my comments regarding the amp and processor here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...ll=1#post83353

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post #206 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordSpawn View Post

where can ue ven download music in 24/192 anyway all i see in gogole is "24/192 is useless" results

See below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

Nowhere.

You can download high-rez from HD Tracks, but from what I know they are not 24/192. More like SACD quality.

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post #207 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 04:52 PM
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HDtracks does offer some selections at 24/192, as do a few other sites. Indeed there even are a few DSD files available for download at other sites.
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post #208 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

Much expected resume request arrives.

Resume request? You are on an audio forum. People discuss audio equipment they own or like to own. You critiqued another members choices, with utmost authority. Not once, but twice. Then refuse to even tell us what your room looks like because we are asking for your "resume?" No one is offering you a job . Just wanted to see if you practice what you said needed to be done.

At least we have a picture of your amp:


Quote:


Is this an invitation for a duel?

You bet it is:



Quote:


This is not related, but just for laughs:

You need more practice on the "laughing" part. Some lessons above.

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post #209 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

So again, if you have other research that show the much lower bar you are advocating here, I would love to read them.

One of the interesting factoids that you seem to have missed Amir is that *every* plot in Fielder's paper is cut off below 100 Hz. Virtually every data line is increasing rapidly at the point where it is cut off at 100 Hz.

I have to admit that my measurements and recordings include what's happening below 100 Hz. That may be why I come up with different conclusions.
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post #210 of 761 Old 03-14-2012, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Party View Post

HDtracks does offer some selections at 24/192, as do a few other sites. Indeed there even are a few DSD files available for download at other sites.

Does HDtracks provide any clues as to which of their offerings are based on recordings that actually have the sort of bandpass we expect from 25/192, IOW strong response up to 96 KHz?
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