Horn vs Dome (Tweeter Design) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 41 Old 04-04-2014, 03:21 PM
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Yes there are always issues when putting more drivers in the same listening area. It is not like they cannot be overcome if there is a problem. I certainly got over any issues of driving 8 15 inch subwoofers. 8 ten inch subwoofers and 4 12 inch subwoofers in my listening area. LOL. One can talk about cancellation etc in a situation like this, but with this many subwoofers, a non issue smile.gif). All the 10s and 12s are sealed units, and my 15s are ported, to give me the best of both worlds depending on what I want to experiment with. With one Amplifier on each subwoofer in bridge mode, in most cases, each subwoofers level can be adjusted from each amplifiers level pots.

The bullets seem to be working rather well so far. They add something nice to the very top end, and I am not experiencing any technical difficulties lol. With four klipsh rf 5 tweeters. 4 yamaha yst tweeters, and now, 4 Pioneer bullet tweeters, you can really make quite a nice musical sensation. At present I got the bullets hooked up to a emotiva XPR 2, and adjusting level with an art xl 231. In any event my ears say NO PROBLEM lol. The meters on the emotiva xpr 2 are barely registering, yet getting what I wanted when adding these. A purchase I was not sorry I made. These bullets are extremely directional vs the more dispersed Klipsch, so they need to be set up for the audiophile sweet spot to enjoy them. They are much brighter than the Klipsch also.

Just as with any different speaker driver, there will be advantages and disadvantages of using it. Most of which can be overcome with the processing units available today, that were never available 15 to 20 years, ago. The title of this thread is Horn vs dome, however, different horns have different drivers at the base of the throat which can make them better or worse. Most horns are lacking in good high end over 12000 hz, however the Klipsh are not, in part due to the titanium driver. Soft domes tend to Roll off at 16000 hz vs these pioneer titanium horns at 18000. You can call this too bright, or better frequency response depending on the preference of your own ears. Soft domes can be made brighter with processing, and titanium horns can be made smoother sounding, if one accepts that smoother sound and less frequency response, or different frequency response are the same thing.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are
least under rated if at all.
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post #32 of 41 Old 04-04-2014, 04:03 PM
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http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun13/articles/qanda-0613-3.htm

Here is a good link about comb filtering for those that think experiencing some cancellation is the end of the world. Comb filtering is a more serious issue when recording, as when different or same sound arrive at different microphone inputs at different times, you are going to get comb filtering. This problem is taken care of in DAW programs to eliminate it, as you do not want the sound recorded this way.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are
least under rated if at all.
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post #33 of 41 Old 04-04-2014, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
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Using 2hf units in one box is a guarantee for comb filtering and lobbing because the distance between the units is longer than the wavelength of most of the hf range.
Bingo. Even C-C distance between the Pioneers and the RF5 tweets is likely be an issue.

+1.

A tweeter with 106-110 sensitivity and 50-100 watts power handling capacity puts out 121-130 dB SPL with just one unit. That is ear bleed territory!
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post #34 of 41 Old 04-06-2014, 10:33 AM
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+1.

A tweeter with 106-110 sensitivity and 50-100 watts power handling capacity puts out 121-130 dB SPL with just one unit. That is ear bleed territory!

Then again because most people experience more speaker distortion than they realize, I can see the use case for plenty of unused headroom. smile.gif
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post #35 of 41 Old 04-06-2014, 01:23 PM
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+1.

A tweeter with 106-110 sensitivity and 50-100 watts power handling capacity puts out 121-130 dB SPL with just one unit. That is ear bleed territory!

Then again because most people experience more speaker distortion than they realize, I can see the use case for plenty of unused headroom. smile.gif

The second tweeter will cause comb filtering, which sucks the life out of the music. Its not worth the loss in fidelity for only 3 dB more headroom, especially in a system that already has a minimum of 16 dB headroom over THX standards.
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post #36 of 41 Old 04-07-2014, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

+1.

A tweeter with 106-110 sensitivity and 50-100 watts power handling capacity puts out 121-130 dB SPL with just one unit. That is ear bleed territory!
Of course once you subtract 15-20dB for dynamic range-and another 6dB for distance loses (most people don't sit within 1M of the speakers) the numbers are no so loud.

And then there is the whole )is the sensitivity number a peak somewhere or an average across the band type of thing.

it is real easy to get some high numbers-but often quite another to actually "experience" them.

Just bringing in a little reality

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post #37 of 41 Old 04-07-2014, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by johnplayerson View Post

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun13/articles/qanda-0613-3.htm

Here is a good link about comb filtering for those that think experiencing some cancellation is the end of the world. Comb filtering is a more serious issue when recording, as when different or same sound arrive at different microphone inputs at different times, you are going to get comb filtering. This problem is taken care of in DAW programs to eliminate it, as you do not want the sound recorded this way.
No it is not the end of the world and is still very "listenable"

HOWEVER it is not as clear as a system that does not have it.

Some people think McDonalds hamburgers are just fine-but they have not tasted a good filet

It all depends on where your "reference" is.

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post #38 of 41 Old 04-08-2014, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnplayerson View Post

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun13/articles/qanda-0613-3.htm

Here is a good link about comb filtering for those that think experiencing some cancellation is the end of the world. Comb filtering is a more serious issue when recording, as when different or same sound arrive at different microphone inputs at different times, you are going to get comb filtering. This problem is taken care of in DAW programs to eliminate it, as you do not want the sound recorded this way.
No it is not the end of the world and is still very "listenable"

HOWEVER it is not as clear as a system that does not have it.

Some people think McDonalds hamburgers are just fine-but they have not tasted a good filet

It all depends on where your "reference" is.

The post above tells me what a clueless idiot I am - having never ever listened to a wide dynamic range system. :-(
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post #39 of 41 Old 04-08-2014, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


The post above tells me what a clueless idiot I am - having never ever listened to a wide dynamic range system. :-(

Post #37 you quoted is Ivan addressing comb filtering, equating comb filtering to a McDonalds experience and a lack of comb filtering to a good filet.

 

I wonder if you weren't really referring to post #36, which is Ivan addressing sensitivity and output? Or mine at #34?

 

FWIW, I agree, that is tons of headroom in excess of what would be needed in a typical residential space. 

And, I can picture having woofers and amps that cannot keep up in the midbass if one did try to make use of the tweeter's full output. 

Not to mention subwoofers. 

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post #40 of 41 Old 04-08-2014, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The post above tells me what a clueless idiot I am - having never ever listened to a wide dynamic range system. :-(
It is not so much about how dynamic a system is-but rather the lack of interaction between drivers (both in the same freq band and adjacent bands)

We hear combfiltering all the time (just turn on your car radio) and people get by just fine.

But when the interference is minimized it gets better.

Think of the Claritin commercials. You can still see everything-but it gets clearer.

Many professionals are easily fooled by combfiltering. It depends on the amount and the freq of the main interference. Really low and really high are not that big a deal-but when it happens in the middle of the freq response it can be quite bad.

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post #41 of 41 Old 04-08-2014, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The post above tells me what a clueless idiot I am - having never ever listened to a wide dynamic range system. :-(
Post #37 you quoted is Ivan addressing comb filtering, equating comb filtering to a McDonalds experience and a lack of comb filtering to a good filet.

I wonder if you weren't really referring to post #36, which is Ivan addressing sensitivity and output? Or mine at #34?

This one: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1398576/horn-vs-dome-tweeter-design/30#post_24581917

IOW, I'm not referring to your comment.
Quote:
FWIW, I agree, that is tons of headroom in excess of what would be needed in a typical residential space. 


And, I can picture having woofers and amps that cannot keep up in the midbass if one did try to make use of the tweeter's full output. 

Not to mention subwoofers. 

All good points!
Quote:
FWIW, I agree, that is tons of headroom in excess of what would be needed in a typical residential space. 
And, I can picture having woofers and amps that cannot keep up in the midbass if one did try to make use of the tweeter's full output. 
Not to mention subwoofers. 

Agreed.
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