Horn vs Dome (Tweeter Design) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 03-07-2012, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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So I went through the Speaker Forum and could not find any info. I was going to post this there, but it's really better suited here.

What are the pros and cons between the two? Obviously, there is a sound difference. Horns have been called "bright" and other creative adjectives. If one is better than the other, then why do some manufactures still make them?

So for an example, within the same line:
BIC RtR 1530 http://www.bicamerica.com/showpage.p...e=15&spkrID=63

BIC RtR-EV15 http://www.bicamerica.com/showpage.p...=15&spkrID=120

The 1530's have "2 1/2" fluid cooled tweeter", while the EV15's have "one high efficiency horn tweeter with extended output to 116dB".

There are a few other small differences, magnet size and slight difference in midrange, and whatnot.

But the big difference is the 1530 has a "Sensitivity: 90 dB." While the EV15 has "Sensitivity: 95dB @ 2.83V/1 watt, 1 meter."

Based off of that, it seems like horn makes a better tweeter.

So what makes a better tweeter, horn or dome, or other?
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post #2 of 41 Old 03-07-2012, 12:09 PM
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Ok well if you look at the BIC Formula line or the BIC Acoustech Platinum line (which I own) they use a 1" aluminum dome tweeter set back (loaded) in a 6.5" square horn.

When ppl say horns are bright its probably cuz its a compression tweeter mounted back in the horn like Klipsch for example. So to me BIC Acoustech Platinum line is a nice in between sound from a regular dome tweeter to a horn loaded tweeter.

Think of a megaphone: you speak thru it and it naturally amplifies any sound coming out of it. That is how a horn works, all the mids/highs freqs that come from the tweeter are naturally amplified by the horn making them more sensitive and efficient. Great for vocals in music TV and movies. However speakers with horn loaded tweeters are more directional and if you sit too far off axis you will miss out on a lot of the high freqs.

With that said I love the horns of the Acoustechs and so does the wife.

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post #3 of 41 Old 03-07-2012, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Ok well if you look at the BIC Formula line or the BIC Acoustech Platinum line (which I own) they use a 1" aluminum dome tweeter set back (loaded) in a 6.5" square horn.

...speakers with horn loaded tweeters are more directional and if you sit too far off axis you will miss out on a lot of the high freqs...

So for this example, it's really a dome tweeter, but the sound travels and therefore is amplified by the horn design. Making it more of a hybrid.

I understand the basics of a dome tweeter http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...1f/Tw15ul9.jpg

I also understand the Megaphone analogy.

But when a horn is used as a tweeter, either hybrid or traditional, other than the directionality of it, is there any benefits with using horn tweeters.

Or, as with most things involving Audiophilia(my word, I made it up!) as a whole, everything is subjective to the listeners preferences?
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post #4 of 41 Old 03-07-2012, 12:38 PM
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Correct...

Yes it is subjective to everyones likings.

For me the horn just makes things come to life. Voices sound just as the person is in the room talking to you. A window shattering sounds just like what it should. Crisp, clear, airy highs to me is a huge benefit. The only other negative I can think of is if the midrange drivers or woofers were not efficient and the tweeter was extra efficient the highs would over power the other freqs (which IMO is how the Klipsch Reference series speakers sound). With the Acoustechs the woofers are treated paper cones and are very efficient so they sound very well balanced in highs vs. lows.

FYI.... Almost every (probably every) movie theater uses speakers with horn loaded tweeters. Some use a fully horn loaded speaker.

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Well, along with the directional aspects of horn tweeters, there are some other things that I has always noticed and also read about. The horn does acoustically amplify the tweeter output as was noted, but others have said it can also introduces a type of IM distortion since you have high frequency sound waves bouncing around inside the horn itself. For instance, one of the design features often pointed out on typical 2 or three way speakers using dome tweeters is that the tweeter is positioned in a proper plane relative to the other drivers so phasing is correct and. .. . high frequencies radiating from the dome tweeter are free to disperse free of interference from the sides of the enclosure or the other drivers in the same cabinet.

So in that case with dome tweeters, IF care is taken to make sure things aren't in the way to the sides of a dome tweeter because of causing undesirable effects, what does that say about having the tweeter drivers inside a small, box shaped horn with sides bouncing the waves around inside it? Possibly introducing some kind of IM distortion? Anyway, that is some of what I read regarding the "cons" of horn tweeters. I know, supposedly, the "horn" should be designed so that its driver is ideally located, but for all frequencies?

As for my opinion, I always thought horns were great for large areas and for maximum output such as auditoriums and such. But for most home use, the wider dispersion domes often would be better. Not to mention, to me, horns always sounded kind of strident and peaky to me in a home environment.

Maybe the gurus have more to say?
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post #6 of 41 Old 03-07-2012, 12:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Correct...

Yes it is subjective to everyones likings.

. The only other negative I can think of is if the midrange drivers or woofers were not efficient and the tweeter was extra efficient the highs would over power the other freqs (which IMO is how the Klipsch Reference series speakers sound). With the Acoustechs the woofers are treated paper cones and are very efficient so they sound very well balanced in highs vs. lows.

FYI.... Almost every (probably every) movie theater uses speakers with horn loaded tweeters. Some use a fully horn loaded speaker.

Yes, the Klipsch are a good example of what I meant about sounding "strident" or almost piercing at times. But, yes, horns seem well suited in an auditorium/movie theater. . . . or I suppose if you have a very large listening area. But it would have to be something other than Klipsh.
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post #7 of 41 Old 03-07-2012, 12:57 PM
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Horns are the only way to go if you like your sound loud and clear. Horns do have a type of sound that differ from other speaker types. You need to listen before you buy.
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post #8 of 41 Old 03-07-2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

So I went through the Speaker Forum and could not find any info. I was going to post this there, but it's really better suited here.

What are the pros and cons between the two? Obviously, there is a sound difference.

Horn-loaded speakers are also called "waveguide" speakers. Waveguide being new-speak for horn.

Your typical Dome speaker is mounted on a flat plate, which acts as a simple waveguide. It restricts the directivity of the dome to 180 degrees at low frequencies. At higher frequencies the side of the dome itself provides some additional directivity because the speaker's diaphragm diameter starts approaching 1/2 wavelength and cancellation reduces off-axis response.

Most horn speakers that are midranges or tweeters are composed of a compression driver and a waveguide. A compression driver is composed of a magnet and diaphragm assembly that looks quite a bit like a dome tweeter, but that is covered by a device called a phasing plug that gathers sound from all over the diaphragm and collects it into a tubular passage. The waveguide receives sound from the compression drivers tubular passage and guides the sound out into the room in ways that depend on the shape of the waveguide.

The waveguide helps match the acoustic impedance of the compression driver which produces highly concentrated sound, to the impedance of the room which receives dispersed sound. It's a kind of acoustic transformer.

Dome tweeters also produce concentrated sound but they make no effort to match the impedance of their diaphragm to that of the room so they are far less efficent.

There is a kind of intermediate kind of speaker that places a waveguide in front of a dome or cone speaker. While not quite as efficient as using a compression driver, the waveguide can have beneficial effects.

The big problem with waveguides is that their size is determined by the wavelength of the lowest frequency they handle so they have to be very large to be efficient at low frequencies.

The main benefit of the waveguide is that it can control the directivity of the speaker and provide many options. Wavegudes can control directivity to be wide, narrow, and different in the vertical and horizontal orientation. One benefit of controlling the directivity of a speaker is that you can use this control to prevent or reduce sound falling where it shouldn't and causing undesirable reflections.

If you use a dome or cone speaker as your baseline, the waveguide speakers have the advantages of better controlled directivity and the opportunity for greater efficiency.
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post #9 of 41 Old 03-07-2012, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

When ppl say horns are bright its probably cuz its a compression tweeter mounted back in the horn like Klipsch for example.

When people say Klipsch is bright it is because they generally use crap components. Compression drivers of high quality are not always inexpensive. I've had Khorns, LaScala and Heresy, and by the time you engineer the faults out, there's not much Klipsch left.

My point being that simply because it has a compression driver in it does not mean it will sound bright.
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post #10 of 41 Old 03-08-2012, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

When people say Klipsch is bright it is because they generally use crap components. Compression drivers of high quality are not always inexpensive. I've had Khorns, LaScala and Heresy, and by the time you engineer the faults out, there's not much Klipsch left.

My point being that simply because it has a compression driver in it does not mean it will sound bright.

I agree. I was just using Klipsch as an example. I like the sound of Klipsch for mids and highs I just think they lack in the bass area. Granted I've only heard the Icon, Icon V, Synergy, and the Reference series up to the RF-62IIs, so for the rest I can't comment.

Shawn
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post #11 of 41 Old 03-08-2012, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

Horns are the only way to go if you like your sound loud and clear. Horns do have a type of sound that differ from other speaker types. You need to listen before you buy.

Fact is that there are a number of well-designed speakers with waveguides that you'd never know were built that way unless you took the grille cloth off.

Whether a speaker is bright or subdued has a lot to do with how its crossover is designed and set up.
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post #12 of 41 Old 02-04-2014, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post


I agree. I was just using Klipsch as an example. I like the sound of Klipsch for mids and highs I just think they lack in the bass area. Granted I've only heard the Icon, Icon V, Synergy, and the Reference series up to the RF-62IIs, so for the rest I can't comment.

I use two pair of the Klipsch RF 5 for mains. (not my only two pair set), I always loved the horns, and found them to have excellent sound and good dispersion, in my listening area of 14 by 12 feet. Obviously you will get less bass response with only 6 inch drivers or less. These RF 5 have two eight inch bass drivers, and they are actually very good for bass. The only time i found them too bright was if I equalized up the high end of the spectrum, then you pierce your eardrum no problem as these horns will reproduce whatever high frequency you give them Given that I still like to bump up 16 and 20 kg band on my equalizer.

Below them I have two pair of yamaha yst speakers with one eight inch bass, and the usual dome tweeter. They do not reproduce the high end like the klipsch will do unless you equalize them up. I think some people call the dome smoother simply because your not reproducing the 16 to 20 k range as much as kiipsch horn, and of course your are also 15 db less efficient so the level of reproduction is a lot lower.

We all have our magic processors these days, so it is pretty easy to make up for differences in speakers with quality processing. Klipsch didnt become one of the biggest speaker makers in the world because people did not like there speakers.
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post #13 of 41 Old 02-04-2014, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

... If one is better than the other, then why do some manufactures still make them?
 

 

First, there is no such thing as a perfect speaker of any kind.  So when looking at which one to make, the manufacturer decides which virtues to pursue and which vices to accept.  The same idea applies to you selecting a product to buy.  There is no perfect speaker, so you select based on which virtues you require, and which vices you can accept.  Since different people care about different things, they will prefer different speakers.  Of course, many people form prejudices about these matters, and that, too, influences their choices.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post
...

So what makes a better tweeter, horn or dome, or other?

 

Any type of tweeter (or other speaker) can be made badly, and so selecting by speaker type is not going to guarantee anything.  So I recommend that you do not select your speaker by its type, but instead by how well you like the sound.

 

That said, I personally am very fond of ribbons (though I have heard a couple of cheap ones that I did not care for; as I already stated, any type can be made badly).  My Apogee Stage speakers seem almost magical to me, though I'm damned if I know why they seem so special.  I've read various things about the low mass of the drivers, etc., but I have never found what I consider to be a satisfactory explanation of what, precisely, they are doing that I like so well compared with other speakers.  Although I like the "spaciousness" created by the dipole drivers, that is not the "magic" for me, as I also very much like the monopole Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeters I have.  And I have owned other speakers that radiate sound forward and back with conventional drivers, and they did not have the "magic."  The subjective impression of my speakers is greater clarity and less distortion, but I know enough about the value of subjective impressions to be cautious about forming any opinion on their actual performance based on that; human ears are not calibrated test equipment.  That I like the way they sound is one thing, but why it is, is another thing, that is much more difficult to be certain about.

 

 

 

Edited to add:  I now see that johnplayerson has revived a very old thread.


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post #14 of 41 Old 02-04-2014, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, since we are all here... How would one determine the MLP and the worst listening spot(s) for a set of L&R speakers? Adding to that, a center channel, all on the same plane. Wouldn't there be more cancellation due to the directiveness and design of the Waveguides(horns for those late to the party)? Would one use the 'Mirror' trick concept, to try to see the center of the Waveguide? Thereby, if you can't see it, then you would be less inclined to hear it. Also, would nearfeild listening sound considerable different from let's say 12' to 18' away(asumming symmetrical design with minimal room gain, absorption, et al)?
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post #15 of 41 Old 02-05-2014, 10:00 AM
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This handy article does not address the center channel question, but it does address the MLP and correct implementation of controlled directivity speakers.
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post #16 of 41 Old 02-05-2014, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

So I went through the Speaker Forum and could not find any info. I was going to post this there, but it's really better suited here.


What are the pros and cons between the two? Obviously, there is a sound difference. Horns have been called "bright" and other creative adjectives. If one is better than the other, then why do some manufactures still make them?


So for an example, within the same line:

BIC RtR 1530 http://www.bicamerica.com/showpage.p...e=15&spkrID=63


BIC RtR-EV15 http://www.bicamerica.com/showpage.p...=15&spkrID=120


The 1530's have "2 1/2" fluid cooled tweeter", while the EV15's have "one high efficiency horn tweeter with extended output to 116dB".


There are a few other small differences, magnet size and slight difference in midrange, and whatnot.


But the big difference is the 1530 has a "Sensitivity: 90 dB." While the EV15 has "Sensitivity: 95dB @ 2.83V/1 watt, 1 meter."


Based off of that, it seems like horn makes a better tweeter.


So what makes a better tweeter, horn or dome, or other?

A typical dome tweeter is really a dome driver on a flat waveguide.

Look carefully at some of them and there is actually a short waveguide.

The waveguide is an acoustic impedance matching device. Normally the interface between a driver and the free air has a giant impedance mismatch. When the waveguide matches the impedances better there are fewer losses and efficiency goes up.

The downside of waveguides are likely reflections and undesirable reflections inside the waveguide.

An ideal waveguide follows one of the many solutions of the wave equation of sound in the air. Finding many new solutions and therefore more optimal waveguide shapes is part of the innovations by Dr. Earl Geddes.

How the waveguide is driven is part of the equation. A dome tweeter is a simple driver, while compression drivers are generally more optimal and therefore more efficient. A planar diaphragm is another example of potentially good driver for a waveguide.

Waveguides and drivers are diverse enough that any idea of a characteristic sound is probably a stereotype. For example many constant directivity waveguides have a built in fairly steep HF rolloff and have to be used with an electrical equalizer with rising response to sound anywhere near flat. Naturally, they sound very dull!
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post #17 of 41 Old 02-08-2014, 07:39 PM
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I own Avantgarde Acoustics Duo Omega spherical horns and they are simply some of the best sounding speaker styles around. Extremely impressive for movies and for music. I am able to achieve a flat response from them and they sound holographic like electrostatics but feel limitless in power. They are very efficient (>108db) and so usually operate at under 5 watts power into 8ohms.

They must be placed perfectly with respect to the listening position to get best results but once setup right, almost nothing else compares.

There is zero hint of harshness and if i blinded you all you would be able to notice is their holographic presentation and the very large (larger than life) soundstage. You can identify spherical horn speakers easily on blind testing. They have no hint of "horn harshness"

If you can get a pair of these used, they are good enough to be purchased sight unseen. They arent around much since they are almost entirely sold and marketed in europe.

I also own B&W 802d and have a lot of other stuff but really nothing else really compares to large horn speakers. danley speakers have been compared favorably by some however I can't compare since I havent heard danleys.

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post #18 of 41 Old 02-13-2014, 02:23 PM
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I used to be a big fan of waveguides (and still am) but now that I have discovered ribbons, I may never go back smile.gif

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Originally Posted by Emetw View Post

I used to be a big fan of waveguides (and still am) but now that I have discovered ribbons, I may never go back smile.gif

Monitor audio's top of the line platinum which is cheaper than 802d sounds better to be than my 802d... I was very impressed by the beauty of ribbon sound. I have been very impressed by the transparent sound of ribbons on legacy tweeters as well.

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post #20 of 41 Old 02-13-2014, 02:42 PM
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Monitor audio's top of the line platinum which is cheaper than 802d sounds better to be than my 802d... I was very impressed by the beauty of ribbon sound. I have been very impressed by the transparent sound of ribbons on legacy tweeters as well.

Very nice! Ribbons do a great job blending mid-low SPL smoothness of domes with dispersion and efficiency of horns, better than I could have imagined. I just measured my Aurum Cantus G3SI's in my line arrays and they are flat to well beyond 20khz from 45 degrees off-axis!!! Even if I am in a different part of the house, it still sounds very open and real. One thing I have noticed about ribbons is that they are VERY forgiving with poor recordings, especially highly compressed content like MP3's. Just about everything sounds good with them.

My favorite ribbons of all time are my RAAL 140-15D dipoles. I originally had them paired with SEAS Excel W15 mids and I plan to pair them with Acoustic Elegance Dipole6's next (currently in storage, no room for a dedicated 2-channel room right now mad.gif). They sound incredible and have extremely low distortion/high sensitivity. Off-axis response is world-class...and most importantly they are just plain "fun" to listen to. That's the most important part, right? biggrin.gif

I do want to experiment with a SEOS waveguide for my next project when I move to a bigger house that has a dedicated theater. They seem to be the best combination of value/performance. Paired with an Acoustic Elegance woofer, I bet they are perfect!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emetw View Post

I used to be a big fan of waveguides (and still am) but now that I have discovered ribbons, I may never go back smile.gif

In an earlier post I pointed out that common dome tweeters are just dome drivers on a flat waveguide, and that people have put domes at the origin of more elaborate waveguides with good results.





Ditto for ribbons.

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post #22 of 41 Old 02-14-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Emetw View Post

Ribbons do a great job blending mid-low SPL smoothness of domes with dispersion and efficiency of horns
Huh? Most ribbons are not sold/used with any sort of horn or WG so their horizontal dispersion is around 180* and most have an efficiency not dissimilar to domes. Typically need to be crossed higher/steeper than a lot of domes too.
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post #23 of 41 Old 02-14-2014, 01:32 PM
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Huh? Most ribbons are not sold/used with any sort of horn or WG so their horizontal dispersion is around 180* and most have an efficiency not dissimilar to domes. Typically need to be crossed higher/steeper than a lot of domes too.

Waveguides/horns help domes and compression drivers with dispersion where a ribbon usually already has very wide dispersion, no need for a waveguide/horn. Ribbon efficiency is usually much higher than domes, not sure where you reading otherwise confused.gif Edit: Unless you are referring to very small ribbons like LCYs.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emetw View Post

Waveguides/horns help domes and compression drivers with dispersion where a ribbon usually already has very wide dispersion, no need for a waveguide/horn.
The point of using a horn/WG in most instance is to control dispersion, ie make it narrower than 180* which is not all that useful. Put a dome or a CD on a flat baffle and it will be near 180*. Most horns/WGs are nearer 90* horizontally at least.
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Originally Posted by Emetw View Post

Ribbon efficiency is usually much higher than domes, not sure where you reading otherwise confused.gif Edit: Unless you are referring to very small ribbons like LCYs.
Most ribbons I've seen, including the RAAL 70-10 are low 90's where lots of domes are. It's only the large units that do much better than 95dB, which is still 10dB off a CD.
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post #25 of 41 Old 02-14-2014, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

The point of using a horn/WG in most instance is to control dispersion, ie make it narrower than 180* which is not all that useful. Put a dome or a CD on a flat baffle and it will be near 180*. Most horns/WGs are nearer 90* horizontally at least.
Most ribbons I've seen, including the RAAL 70-10 are low 90's where lots of domes are. It's only the large units that do much better than 95dB, which is still 10dB off a CD.

I think we have a misunderstanding here. Many waveguides on the market including SEOS, Monacor, etc. are used to improve and control horizontal dispersion compared to standard cd/dome drivers...when I think dispersion, I also think of better off-axis response. But I know what you mean regarding controlling dispersion to be less than 180*. When I say that a ribbon provides better efficiency, I mean to say that those options are out there whereas it is harder to find high efficiency from a dome without graduating to a compression driver with a horn/waveguide. smile.gif

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post #26 of 41 Old 02-19-2014, 01:06 PM
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Horns/Waveguides aren't all the same. 

 

Better horns avoid the distortion mentioned above, as well as provide more even directivity at more frequencies. So your audience seats left to right all get similar response.

It's all in the compromises and goals: where the finest domes or ribbons might perform better than the horns for one person in the perfectly positioned sweet spot, his friends to his side might get a very different response, where the best horn would do better.

 

So, in a perfectly treated room, with ribbons or domes that have high power handling (and thus don't need the sensitivity), where the speaker and seating has been well measured and tweaked, it might be fine for the audience. Or for the single lone listener, perfect.

But for high dynamics with a typical receiver, in my sorta-treated room, when I want my wife and friends to have a great experience too, I'll take my SEOS horn over sweeter-sounding ribbons or silk domes.

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That Darn Johnny reviving threads lol. smile.gif))

I ran into it when i was doing some searching for titanium bullet tweeters. Seeing as i am one of the people that like the klipsch horns at least in my rf 5s, I decided to do some more experimentation. I must add that the Klipsch horns balance in fairly nicely with all the subwoofers I like to drive LOL.

I decided to make myself some satellite bullet tweeters to add to my system. Of course I like my equipment to look good also so I settled on these pioneer one inch bullet
tweeters loaded in a 4 inch square horn. I am loading two per box to make them 8 ohms, so I will have two for the left and two for the right.


And now i finally can put the Marathon ma 5050 that sucks for driving subwoofers to good use, To power my bullet tweeters. The tweeters are 200 watts RMS each, so each box will be 400 watts RMS LOL. The sensitivity is 106db on these puppies, It is going to be a lot of fun. I am sure that I will not be cranking them anywhere near max power.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are
least under rated if at all.
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Here is what Lenard audio has to say about titanium compression drivers.

Compression tweeters are approx 106 – 110dB/m/W efficient. 50 – 100 Watt Compression tweeters have always been available but have not been commonly used because of cost. These tweeters are of excellent quality and superior in performance to the majority of domestic audiophile tweeters.

The rest of the spiel can be viewed here.

http://lenardaudio.com/education/07_horns_2.html

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are
least under rated if at all.
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post #29 of 41 Old 03-07-2014, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnplayerson View Post

That Darn Johnny reviving threads lol. smile.gif))

I ran into it when i was doing some searching for titanium bullet tweeters. Seeing as i am one of the people that like the klipsch horns at least in my rf 5s, I decided to do some more experimentation. I must add that the Klipsch horns balance in fairly nicely with all the subwoofers I like to drive LOL.

I decided to make myself some satellite bullet tweeters to add to my system. Of course I like my equipment to look good also so I settled on these pioneer one inch bullet
tweeters loaded in a 4 inch square horn. I am loading two per box to make them 8 ohms, so I will have two for the left and two for the right.


And now i finally can put the Marathon ma 5050 that sucks for driving subwoofers to good use, To power my bullet tweeters. The tweeters are 200 watts RMS each, so each box will be 400 watts RMS LOL. The sensitivity is 106db on these puppies, It is going to be a lot of fun. I am sure that I will not be cranking them anywhere near max power.

Using 2hf units in one box is a guarantee for comb filtering and lobbing because the distance between the units is longer than the wavelength of most of the hf range.
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post #30 of 41 Old 03-07-2014, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post

Using 2hf units in one box is a guarantee for comb filtering and lobbing because the distance between the units is longer than the wavelength of most of the hf range.
Bingo. Even C-C distance between the Pioneers and the RF5 tweets is likely be an issue.
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