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post #91 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

What you said was very clear: that non-biased evaluation of acoustic products is not needed.

Never happened, except perhaps in your overheated imagination.

Proof - no proper quote is provided to support the claim even though the post being butchered is just a few posts back.

Besides Amir, judged by your behavior on this forum, proper bias controlled evaluations are never required as long as your name is Amir.

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That is just wrong.

Often happens when you argue with yourself, Amir.

Friendly advice - stop making stuff up and then picking a fight with it.
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post #92 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Room treatments cause 'room acoustic variation' -- question is which particular treatments consumers like (I'd be interested to know which treatments might lead them to prefer sh*tty speakers )

One other thing to consider is that Harmon's listening room is probably a pretty fair-sounding room in its own right.

And that compares to the large variations in room configuration that we see around here, how? ;-)

I was posting to a guy this morning, and if I got his comments right, his listening room had a bare tile floor, drywall ceilings and walls, and thin drapes on the numerous, asymmetrically-placed windows.
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post #93 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

As I read it, he's getting tinny sound from one rig, but not the other. I presumed he was playing his crappy 96kbps mp3s on both.



Yes, if that's the case, this was all rather a huge waste of time on our parts. How unusual!

I suspect that a PS/3 driving a good AVR via HDMI actually gives a pretty good account of itself, sonically. Its internal converters are probably about the same standard as a contemporaneous PC, which has been pretty good for a number of years.
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post #94 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

Arny keeps taking his baits, which causes this. Best to ignore. I agree.

When you're dealing with certain people, you can live pretty well eating their bait, especially if you also get to eat their lunch. ;-)
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post #95 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I suspect that a PS/3 driving a good AVR via HDMI actually gives a pretty good account of itself, sonically. Its internal converters are probably about the same standard as a contemporaneous PC, which has been pretty good for a number of years.


Yes , which is why the 'tinny' sound is likely either disparate DSP/output setting choices between the rigs, or he's playing CDs on one and low bitrate mp3s on the other. Or, of course, 'placebo'. In any case, not a room treatment issue.
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post #96 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

When you're dealing with certain people, you can live pretty well eating their bait, especially if you also get to eat their lunch. ;-)

Fun for you, maybe, but not necessarily for us. Stopping would raise the S/N so vastly that no DBT would be required to detect the change.
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post #97 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Fun for you, maybe, but not necessarily for us. Stopping would raise the S/N so vastly that no DBT would be required to detect the change.

Well put. Personally, however, I can't be bothered to protect my right to be right, allways, right now, because my eyes are fixed on tossed burning chainsaws.

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post #98 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:25 PM
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AJ...

There is perceptual data gathered through DBT's that provide insight into how people perceive sound influenced by acoustical architectural features and how their preferences correlate with measurements. There are good measurement tools that allow one to treat a room to achieve "desired" characteristics based on the data gathered from the above. Thus, many advocate such treatments based on the perceptual data and availability of measuring tools without suggesting they DBT their room before and after to ensure it works as planned. "The proof is in the listening."

There is perceptual data gathered through DBT's that provide insight into how people perceive sound influenced by speaker design features and how their preferences correlate with measurements. There are good measurement tools that allow one to design a speaker to achieve "desired" characteristics based on the data gathered from the above. Thus, you personally design speakers based on the perceptual data and availability of measuring tools without advocating the need for DBT of your specific speaker to ensure it works as planned. "The proof is in the listening."

Please, I understand this is your marketing angle and I understand why you do it, but please stop, especially in combination with accusing others of making marketing driven statements that are no more egregious than yours.

And yes, I've read Toole. I understand what he meant. He has offered clarification which has previously been posted here on AVS. You may use him as a hammer to bludgeon others, but this too is merely your marketing strategy.

And no, I'm not about to do your homework for you and post links to dozens of references backing up my observations. You know that isn't my style... I'm simply too lazy to be bothered with the charade of educating you when knowledge isn't your problem, intent is.

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post #99 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I have read Toole.

If you get the opportunity, I suggest hearing him in person .

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He doesn't say room treatments can't/don't work.

He says more than that. This is from his CEDIA course on "Room Accoustics Demystified: "A well-furnished lving space (carpet, sofa, chairs, drapes, bookcases and cabinets) can be an excellent listening environment." He spends quite a bit of time emphasizing this.

His main use of room acoustics if for dedicated rooms/listening spaces which by definition are devoid of typical things he mentions there.

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He mainly says, they aren't often intelligently applied (e.g., can easily be over-applied).

That's right although most of his worry is not "over-applying" but using too thin of material which includes just about most treatment people slap on the walls.

You can complain about AJ but he has read Floyd's work. You are not going to invalidate what AJ says using the same source.

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post #100 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Never happened, except perhaps in your overheated imagination.

That's great. We are in agreement and can move on. Now, where are the double blind tests that show efficacy of products you and Ethan are advocating?

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post #101 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

If you get the opportunity, I suggest hearing him in person .


He says more than that. This is from his CEDIA course on "Room Accoustics Demystified: "A well-furnished lving space (carpet, sofa, chairs, drapes, bookcases and cabinets) can be an excellent listening environment." He spends quite a bit of time emphasizing this.

His main use of room acoustics if for dedicated rooms/listening spaces which by definition are devoid of typical things he mentions there.


That's right although most of his worry is not "over-applying" but using too thin of material which includes just about most treatment people slap on the walls.

You can complain about AJ but he has read Floyd's work. You are not going to invalidate what AJ says using the same source.

Do you agree or not that room is the greatest source of distortion?
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post #102 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Btw, why do you take things so personally?

Maybe because your criticisms of me are personal attacks? Me, I laugh about this stuff all the time, in particular I laugh at those who don't get it due to ignorance and arrogance. And I'll be laughing all the way to the bank soon. My book is already practically a best seller, based only on pre-sales, and it's still a month away from being released.

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post #103 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by walbert View Post

Did anyone catch that the OP is complaining of a "tinny" sound, yet admitted to using 96kbps rips?

I took that as a joke. That post had a grinning smiley in the heading.

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post #104 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Please, I understand this is your marketing angle and I understand why you do it, but please stop, especially in combination with accusing others of making marketing driven statements that are no more egregious than yours.

Like Toole's statement that room reflections are in fact good for ya┬┤. AJ adopt that thinking by going for a full dipole design .

But, not for his "customers" (sold anything yet -it sounded awfully cheap the figures you dropped to Stereophile yeah?!?), but nah, they won't get the only benefit of a dipole in a tiled room -a bit less room reflections (in the side walls)- they'll get the "room treatment dosn't matter gospel" and a KEF coax with a JBL woofer. Ouch!

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post #105 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

You're probably a swell guy Ethan, but you did just recommend a guy fix his media source maladies with "room treatments" (that you sell), yes???

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

He was observing that OP wanted his PC to sound as good as his PS3. Therefore, it is illogical to suggest that the solution to to that problem is room treatment.

If you read the first few posts to this thread, you'll see that Josh didn't mention making one source sound as good as another until a few posts after my suggestion that he consider his room's acoustics.

Now, if either of you guys are intellectually honest, you'll acknowledge that what I just wrote is correct and take back what you said in your quotes above.

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post #106 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

Do you agree or not that room is the greatest source of distortion?

My answer to you has not changed from this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21809751

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post #107 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

If you read the first few posts to this thread, you'll see that Josh didn't mention making one source sound as good as another until quite a bit after my suggestion that he consider his room's acoustics.

That's true.

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Now, if either of you guys are intellectually honest, you'll acknowledge that what I just wrote is correct and take back what you said in your quotes above.

--Ethan

I don't follow Ethan. If I had suggested he change his power cord, would you not ask me to provide proof that it would make a difference? How is your suggestion of using acoustic products any different?

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post #108 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

My answer to you has not changed from this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21809751

No straight answer, just the efforts to wreck another thread with motivation stimulated by the desire to get back to arny. so forgive me if i keep repeating this simple question in response to your 5 page posts until we all get a straight answer .

No matter how you polish it, how many charts you include, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it is a ....
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post #109 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

If you get the opportunity, I suggest hearing him in person .


He says more than that. This is from his CEDIA course on "Room Accoustics Demystified: "A well-furnished lving space (carpet, sofa, chairs, drapes, bookcases and cabinets) can be an excellent listening environment." He spends quite a bit of time emphasizing this.

His main use of room acoustics if for dedicated rooms/listening spaces which by definition are devoid of typical things he mentions there.


That's right although most of his worry is not "over-applying" but using too thin of material which includes just about most treatment people slap on the walls.

You can complain about AJ but he has read Floyd's work. You are not going to invalidate what AJ says using the same source.

I went to one of his CEDIA courses and that is pretty much dead on.
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post #110 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

My answer to you has not changed from this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21809751

That didn't at all answer his question.

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post #111 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

That didn't at all answer his question.

It wasn't meant to. I was serious about him wasting someone else's time when he can't be bothered to read things.

If you have the same question as him, you can ask and I will answer.

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post #112 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 01:24 PM
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No need; I know what you believe. What you will say I can't predict and won't be bothered with.

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post #113 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

Maybe because your criticisms of me are personal attacks?

Nah, Idon't buy it AJ would never ever go for that kind of cheap shot. Are you insane!?!

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post #114 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

If I had suggested he change his power cord, would you not ask me to provide proof that it would make a difference? How is your suggestion of using acoustic products any different?

This is a joke, yes? Do I really have to prove to you how acoustic treatment improves the sound reaching someone's ears in a room? Tell me you're kidding. Please.

In the mean time, Response and Ringing Before Bass Traps:



Response and Ringing After Adding Bass Traps:



Any questions? I have dozens more, and other graph types including comb filtering, RT60, raw response, and individual reflection strength.

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post #115 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

No need; I know what you believe. What you will say I can't predict and won't be bothered with.

In the words of Oracle in the movie Matrix, "what is really going to cook your noodle is that" I knew that is what you would say.

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post #116 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

This is a joke, yes? Do I really have to prove to you how acoustic treatment improves the sound reaching someone's ears in a room? Tell me you're kidding. Please.

Any questions? I have dozens more, and other graph types including comb filtering, RT60, raw response, and individual reflection strength.

--Ethan

You are feeding the troll, that's the exact response response he wants, so he can nitpick something in your response and start going on and on. Question is simple: Does he agree room creates more distortion than a DAC or not? But he won't answer.
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post #117 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

In the words of Oracle in the movie Matrix, "what is really going to cook your noodle is that" I knew that is what you would say.

At least I'm consistent. Why would I word for word repeat a question asked just a few posts ago?

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post #118 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

You are feeding the troll, that's the exact response response he wants, so he can nitpick something in your response and start going on and on. Question is simple: Does he agree room creates more distortion than a DAC or not? But he won't answer.

I'm not trolling, it's an honest question.
Can a room create distortion, which I think of as a non-linear representation of a given input signal?
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post #119 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post

I'm not trolling, it's an honest question.
Can a room create distortion, which I think of as a non-linear representation of a given input signal?

I wasn't talking about you.
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post #120 of 209 Old 03-23-2012, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

I wasn't talking about you.

Sorry, I didn't know it was a private thread.
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