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post #31 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by walbert View Post


I'm kind of curious now, what leads you to believe surround sound will "damage" things, and in what way?

I'm not saying it always does, but it can sometimes. The tv is caddy cornered. The 2 couches are angled in. If I'm on one couch at the end my ear is right next to the right rear.

See the compromise was not changing the living room around so I could center the couch to the tv. That was the first one compromise. Do what you want just don't change the room around. So without changing the room around i don't see a point in doing it.

You're not cultured. You're stupid.
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post #32 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

What damage? What, your hearing? What, your cat starts climbing the drapes, or the dog starts howling? Sorry, but either you are just pulling everyones leg at this point, because this is more far fetched than the people who state that wifi gives them headaches, or you are more whipped than the 80lb guy with the 300lb girlfriend/wife.

Dude what's your problem. Something is going on in your life that your really frustrated about. You wanna let it all out. I mean you could always just go read somewhere else you don' t have to stay and read this.


The way you talk sounds like your the 80lb guy who plays Internet tough guy. Cut the **** and grow up.

You're not cultured. You're stupid.
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post #33 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outlawskinnyd View Post

I'm not saying it always does, but it can sometimes. The tv is caddy cornered. The 2 couches are angled in. If I'm on one couch at the end my ear is right next to the right rear.

See the compromise was not changing the living room around so I could center the couch to the tv. That was the first one compromise. Do what you want just don't change the room around. So without changing the room around i don't see a point in doing it.

Corner placement does present a problem, here's how it "should" be done:


Of course, that probably doesn't reflect any corner placement scheme in real life (I've never seen that image followed properly, usually its the seating that doesn't line up (or the TV is much bigger relative to everything else, and dictates very odd placement (I've seen 84" DLPs crammed into corners like that ), and it very likely is not ideal in terms of acoustics or functionality (I'm thinking early reflections and other problems related to corner placement are likely).

Just a thought, could the surrounds go on stands somewhat "behind" the couches, or perhaps hanging from the ceiling? (Or on-wall bipoles?). Again, it's a compromise from the ideal 5.1 layout, but could probably get you a very good 5.1 effect for movie playback (it really is an improvement for movies that have a proper surround mix, the movie theater example is probably the best, but consider that a movie theater is not caddy-corner'ed ).

Anyways, if you can't go with surrounds (due to placement), you can at least go with a center channel and sub (so-called "3.1") which many users have set-up to great effect (lots of people like the center channel for movies because it helps to anchor dialog, and the sub helps in general).

What I'd suggest is, see if Mourdant Short has a center and/or surrounds that target the speakers you've already bought, and how much they cost (you want everything timbre matched), and if it's plausible to purchase them and try at least the center, it might/should be a nice improvement when watching movies (and leave it in stereo for music, I suspect that with this placement and a 3.x system when you switched into a surround program you'd have everything more or less "pull" to the center).

I do agree with not having one surround on top of your listening position, and the other one at quite a distance - especially if you have multiple listening positions that will jump between the two (in other words, it's not as easy as just turning one down and turning the other one up and changing the delays). But, with dipoles or omnis and proper set-up, you could probably create a diffuse enough sound-field to get your surrounds.
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post #34 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 08:33 PM
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Move on guys...

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post #35 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outlawskinnyd View Post

2.1 I'm fine with. I don't mind getting a sub just for movies. But I don't want to start adding more speakers that can do just as much damage as good.

Then the compromise is to get the AVR and let her buy the rear surrounds to start with. If you buy very good front speakers for your music listening, run a phantom center, and then she can buy some inexpensive surrounds for the rear. Maybe 4.1 would make her happy.

There is an upside to the AVR. If you get Audyssey MultiEQ (or better) the room correction software could improve your 2.1 channel listening because it will EQ the speakers and sub to compensate for room acoustics. You'll get a flatter frequency response out of your 2.1 setup than without it. Might get better audio quality for your money out of putting the money for the DAC into the AVR for that reason.

Plus, you if you buy a good sub, you can use the bass management on the AVR to set the crossover higher than you can without it. I have towers that are 33hz +/- db. Without an AVR, you set your sub crossover down near where the roll off is on the speakers. But with an AVR, you can set it higher because it has a high pass filter to roll the speakers off at a higher frequency. Consequently, I find that the bass sounds better for 2 channel listening with the crossover set at 60hz, because the sub does a better job than the towers below that.

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post #36 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 08:53 PM
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I think 3.1 would be a good compromise between the two of you since you say your room has placement issues. If you could make the side surrounds work for 5.1 that would be even better. But a good 3.1 would be better then a bad 5.1 arrangement.
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post #37 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post


Corner placement does present a problem, here's how it "should" be done:

Of course, that probably doesn't reflect any corner placement scheme in real life (I've never seen that image followed properly, usually its the seating that doesn't line up (or the TV is much bigger relative to everything else, and dictates very odd placement (I've seen 84" DLPs crammed into corners like that ), and it very likely is not ideal in terms of acoustics or functionality (I'm thinking early reflections and other problems related to corner placement are likely).

Just a thought, could the surrounds go on stands somewhat "behind" the couches, or perhaps hanging from the ceiling? (Or on-wall bipoles?). Again, it's a compromise from the ideal 5.1 layout, but could probably get you a very good 5.1 effect for movie playback (it really is an improvement for movies that have a proper surround mix, the movie theater example is probably the best, but consider that a movie theater is not caddy-corner'ed ).

Anyways, if you can't go with surrounds (due to placement), you can at least go with a center channel and sub (so-called "3.1") which many users have set-up to great effect (lots of people like the center channel for movies because it helps to anchor dialog, and the sub helps in general).

What I'd suggest is, see if Mourdant Short has a center and/or surrounds that target the speakers you've already bought, and how much they cost (you want everything timbre matched), and if it's plausible to purchase them and try at least the center, it might/should be a nice improvement when watching movies (and leave it in stereo for music, I suspect that with this placement and a 3.x system when you switched into a surround program you'd have everything more or less "pull" to the center).

I do agree with not having one surround on top of your listening position, and the other one at quite a distance - especially if you have multiple listening positions that will jump between the two (in other words, it's not as easy as just turning one down and turning the other one up and changing the delays). But, with dipoles or omnis and proper set-up, you could probably create a diffuse enough sound-field to get your surrounds.


I'll pm you a picture of the room tomorrow. It's quite a weird set up.

The way i wanna setit up with the 2 speakers, going with info I got from setting up a good stereo stage on linkwitz labs site is gonna be great.

You're not cultured. You're stupid.
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post #38 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 10:06 PM
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In relationships with women, remember one thing, do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy Extended stereo sounds great and the surround or back speakers do not take away from the front stage if setup correctly. I listen to more extended stereo than 2 channel and I use my subs. A good avr can be picked up on the used market as well as nicer speaker than ones you would consider buying new. Ideally, you do not want 5 or 7 exact speakers since they all have different jobs in the system. I get great imaging from extended stereo. Try it before you count it out. If audio is a hobby for you, I doubt that you will never buy more equipment in the future. Compromise, tolerance and patience is needed for a lasting relationship, or you will be moving back to NY

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post #39 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 10:07 PM
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this is odd....I'm having a hard time myself right now trying to get my girlfriend to agree to height speakers lol. Post pics of your set up to see what compromises can be done

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #40 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I will.

We aren't arguing bout it anymore.

I'm sticking to my 2ch speaker. She doesn't care anymore. Like I said she was mAd I put the rear speakers in the basement without her knowing.

As for why I'm sticking to 2 channel and why I'm being so stubborn to you all is because of this http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm

The above linkis my answer to all of you who think that I'm wrong for thinking you don't need more than 2 speakers for straight music playing period. Remember now your not telling me I'm wrong for thinking that you don't go t a concert and stand backwards, your saying he is wrong too. That you don't nerd rear speakers for music.

5.1, 7.1 for straight music listening is nothing more than trying to reinvent the wheel. Look at DVD audio and SACD. What's next blu ray audio?

2 ch vinyl is where it's at for me. Done. And when she hea it set up she will agree.

You're not cultured. You're stupid.
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post #41 of 50 Old 04-06-2012, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lang View Post

Move on guys...

This is the best advice in the whole thread. This is really just a "live and learn" situation.

I hope they'll both be very happy.

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
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post #42 of 50 Old 04-07-2012, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outlawskinnyd View Post

Lol we are over it now. We are cuddling watching sleepy hollow.

I made a deal with her. I'm gonna order an avr right now, but we are gonna keep it 2 channel. If she can't handle watching movies I'll add more speakers, but I don't wanna hear it when I spend money on my guns and watches (other 2 hobbies of mine)

Problem solved. Hahaha

Compromise. It's a slippery slope.
I wanted a dog. My wife wanted a cat. We compromised. We got cat.
I wanted a sports car, my wife wanted a minivan. We compromised. We got a minivan. . .
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post #43 of 50 Old 04-07-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outlawskinnyd View Post

As for why I'm sticking to 2 channel and why I'm being so stubborn to you all is because of this http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm

Herr Doktor Linkwitz's views on the subject are evolving. His current project is the WATSON Stereo Enhancement Loudspeaker, a pair of omnidirectional speakers positioned next to the listener's ears having second order roll-off below 150Hz and first order above 2KHz plus time delay and attenuation of the otherwise unmodified original stereo signal.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Watson/watson.htm

Orion 3.1 added a shelving low-pass filter centered around 4.5KHz where SL offers one explanation for its more natural sound

Quote:


Something fundamental had to be going on and I realized it had to be related to the differences between hearing real sources, which exist physically and phantom sources, which only exist in our mind. No direct sound is coming from a phantom source to our eardrums. For stereo reproduction left and right loudspeakers are ideally at +/-30 degree angles. The literature about Head-Related-Transfer-Functions and center loudspeaker versus phantom center gave me me a clue. We have increasing sensitivity to high frequencies when the real source is at a 30 degree angle, than when it is in front of us. The exact relationship is complicated but there is a broad trend to the sensitivity increase with a slope in the order of 2 dB/decade to 3 dB/decade. Thus a phantom center that is generated by flat left and right loudspeaker signals must have too much high frequency content and should sound bright. A shrill soprano will sound even more shrill when reproduced as a phantom center because the actual sound arrives from left and right angles. Our mind has to form the phantom from those cues at the ear drums and they will be consistent with a very shrill voice in front.

where the astute reader will note that if you adjust the left and the right frequency response to provide a center image with correct timbre sounds originating to the left and right will be unnaturally dull and not what's warranted for classic jazz recordings like _Take Five_ which have placed instruments hard left and right. A physical center channel could provide correct timbre without compromising left and right.

Of course this is nothing new. The scientists at Bell Labs understood in 1933 that at least three channels were necessary for stereo sound reproduction. Some RCA recordings dating back to the 1950s originated on 3-channel tape before being down-mixed for 2 channel LPs.

Frequency response below the Schroeder frequency is dominated by the how the room modes are energized. Toole, Welti, Geddes and other people who know better all propose multiple bass transducers spread around the room to lessen these issues. You also have the SBIR null that can be avoided by a sub-woofer placed near the wall and main speakers far so it's in neither's pass-band. Linkwitz suggests dipole bass with similar effects originating from the main speaker cabinets, although if you're not doing that multiple sub-woofers could improve things.

Quote:


The above linkis my answer to all of you who think that I'm wrong for thinking you don't need more than 2 speakers for straight music playing period. Remember now your not telling me I'm wrong for thinking that you don't go t a concert and stand backwards, your saying he is wrong too. That you don't nerd rear speakers for music.

In the concert hall you get the direct sound from the performers and reflections from their original directions as they happen. In a 2-channel recording of a concert hall you get the direct sound of the performers plus the recorded reflections coming from two sources around +/- 30 degrees. Timbre varies in both cases compared to the live event due to different head related transfer functions.

This ignores practical issues like what do you do when you lack a time-machine to go back and recapture a classic recording on more channels and where to put speakers. Although my two most recent rooms still maintain Linkwitz Orions in an audiophile and Linkwitz approved 8' equillateral triangle 4-5' off the front wall with my Hjellegjerde recliner at the apex at least 7-8' off the back wall there's a couch behind them where a center channel would go (imagine the Orion MT baffle atop a horizontal W-frame. At 90 pounds that wouldn't be too portable to move when not in use).
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post #44 of 50 Old 04-07-2012, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Me and my fiance are fine.

I thank you all for the discussion, no hard feelings.

You're not cultured. You're stupid.
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post #45 of 50 Old 04-09-2012, 07:04 AM
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While we are all glad to hear that your relationship is going strong. The nature of the disruption, still has not been solved.

Sure, you have decided to go 2.1, but that does not bring back the "rear speakers" you removed from her, and her perceived listening advantage.

While, I do not fully agree with your stance(immovable), I do see value in your beliefs.

I also prefer 2, or 2.1 as it were, to analog sources, LP, Tape, and VHS.

However, I also prefer multi-channel for BD, DVD, CD, and streaming(when possible for multi-channel).

While I have not watched Avatar, Thor, or Kung Fu Panda 2, in 2 channel stereo(even though I would be able to), I prefer to watch them in there multi-channel glory, since 1) I am able to, B) they were mixed that way on purpose, and III) I do have the ability to turn off multi-channel for 2 channel, however, I prefer multi-channel.

So with that said, there is no harm in setting up a 5.1-7.1 system, and just turn off the multi-channels for your favorite LP, then turn them back on for the latest and greatest blockbuster BD.

Dig?
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post #46 of 50 Old 04-09-2012, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outlawskinnyd View Post

No, now that she wants me to get more speakers I can't get my cool toys like an external dac and external streaming player because of the receiver will prolly have it.

Any well respected receiver will have a killer DAC section. It obviates the need for the dedicated external DAC (and the money they cost).

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #47 of 50 Old 04-09-2012, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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There's a drawing of the room. It's not as big as it looks. I'm also gonna attach 2 images.

I think having a crnival 2 bookshelf's on stands with a sub and carnival center channel would be good enough. If I add rears they are all going to be satellites.
LL

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post #48 of 50 Old 04-09-2012, 11:43 AM
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If you get a decent Blu Ray player, you can have it all. It will stream for you and have a good DAC. I run a 4.1 system, with high quality front speakers powered by a power amp that sits between them. The two surround speakers are powered by a second amp in the equipment rack, in-wall speaker cables feed them. The sub is powered, so interconnect cables run through the walls for it and the front power amp. I run analog out of the BD to the processor, so it does all the processing. The processor just does volume control for the most part now. I'll be buying a phono stage which will feed the processor when I want to listen to vinyl.

I have excellent 2.1 stereo, but the flexibility to have surround sound for movies. It's the best of both worlds, or all three worlds if you count the vinyl. Even 2.1 doesn't cut it for movies. I think you both have good points, a setup like mine should keep you both very happy.
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post #49 of 50 Old 04-09-2012, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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If you get a decent Blu Ray player, you can have it all. It will stream for you and have a good DAC. I run a 4.1 system, with high quality front speakers powered by a power amp that sits between them. The two surround speakers are powered by a second amp in the equipment rack, in-wall speaker cables feed them. The sub is powered, so interconnect cables run through the walls for it and the front power amp. I run analog out of the BD to the processor, so it does all the processing. The processor just does volume control for the most part now. I'll be buying a phono stage which will feed the processor when I want to listen to vinyl.

I have excellent 2.1 stereo, but the flexibility to have surround sound for movies. It's the best of both worlds, or all three worlds if you count the vinyl. Even 2.1 doesn't cut it for movies. I think you both have good points, a setup like mine should keep you both very happy.

For surrounds I am gonna go and build myself enclosures for 4 extended range drivers. Done deal.

You're not cultured. You're stupid.
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post #50 of 50 Old 04-09-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post

If you get a decent Blu Ray player, you can have it all. It will stream for you and have a good DAC. I run a 4.1 system . . .

I agree. That's a good strategy. Plus, I would think a sub would be nice for some vinyl listening. The Carnival 2s have a listed lower end of 55hz. A sub would could fill in nicely below that for recordings that have that lower range, depending on what kind of music you listen to.

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