Stupid question regarding speaker wire... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 206 Old 05-01-2012, 07:18 PM
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We are know that expensive speaker wires a la Monster Cable from Best Buy are just a scam.

Unfortunately, some people who "know" this think it's because Monster Cable doesn't cost enough.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #92 of 206 Old 05-01-2012, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Unfortunately, some people who "know" this think it's because Monster Cable doesn't cost enough.

One of my favorite parts of the thread...Monster's a scam but the really voodoo wire isn't...you'd be surprised who imports what in the world of wire But the German engineerss not being exact and measuring and repeating everything? Not...

Kinda like not recognizing there are far more brands than factories.

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post #93 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post


What kind of cabling does Dynaudio use inside their speakers?

Not sure what your link to car speakers that you wire yourself was for but according to the interview, they use their own proprietary designed wire. Funny, a while back there was a post about why use good cables since internal gear wiring is of lesser grade, and I posted a picture of the inside of my Stratos which is wired with beefy German made Greneberg wire. I guess they were looking inside their Bose Lifestyle.

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post #94 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

It is just a bit of marketing hyperbole. We all know what he means, and that is along the lines that the human brain is capable of "perceiving" more cumulatively than what the instruments can measure singularly in individual tests.

Tell me why one component can have what you would deem perfect measurements on the bench but the majority of reviewers did not like the sound. Then they listen to a component that measures what you may consider horribly, but most agree that it sounds great? Because it's what one hears that matters in audio, not numbers on a paper. The key word here is audio.

Someone pointed out recently that a newer VAC pre had lousy measurements and deduced that my older model must also have bad measurements. Yet my unit was considered a Reference Component by Stereophile when it was new and still sounds fantastic after 17 years.

If you purchased all your gear on measurements alone, I have doubts that it would be the best sounding setup available.

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post #95 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

Tell me why one component can have what you would deem perfect measurements on the bench but the majority of reviewers did not like the sound. Then they listen to a component that measures what you may consider horribly, but most agree that it sounds great? Because it's what one hears that matters in audio, not numbers on a paper. The key word here is audio.

Some probable explanations for "measures bad, sounds good" are:

(1) Overestimation of the ear's sensitivity.

(2) Some measures of sonic goodness address the issue of component interfacing.

Relevant example - a power amp is considered to measure badly because it has a high source impedance which means that its sound is so extraordinary dependent on the speaker's impedance curve so that it is in essence, a equalizer that lacks user-operable controls. However, in a certain room with a certain speaker, and a certain listener all of the planets and stars line up, and
its exactly what the listener was hoping for.

(3) The equipment is highly priced and highly reviewed it gets favorable mention because of its intimidating price and reviews. Or if you will, due to price and press, it confers immediate bragging rights.
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post #96 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mirkolop View Post

T There must be a high profit on these high-tech wires and that is only reason they want to sell them to you.

Because the market for stereo equipment can be very price-competitive, much of the retailer's profit in a sale may come from the wires.

This was explained by a dealer who was interviewed as part of a Forbes magazine article on Monster Cable some years back. It is also well-known among people who are in the business.
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post #97 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

Tell me why one component can have what you would deem perfect measurements on the bench but the majority of reviewers did not like the sound. Then they listen to a component that measures what you may consider horribly, but most agree that it sounds great? Because it's what one hears that matters in audio, not numbers on a paper. The key word here is audio.

Someone pointed out recently that a newer VAC pre had lousy measurements and deduced that my older model must also have bad measurements. Yet my unit was considered a Reference Component by Stereophile when it was new and still sounds fantastic after 17 years.

If you purchased all your gear on measurements alone, I have doubts that it would be the best sounding setup available.

If you take the information from your post and look at it analytically, the answer is that subjective listening is not useful as a means for measuring performance. If you consider the experiences people have doing blind tests, the results are always random or inconclusive.

The same person can be in a different mood and have a different response to the same source he/she previously found good (or bad). It's just a fact of being human.

I know when I listen to the radio, a song will come on that I love and I'm just not in the mood to hear it. Another time, the same song will be just what I wanted to hear.
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post #98 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post


I'd really like to know if Dynaudio uses voodoo wire inside their speakers to hook the components together...

Electrically speaking, the wire in speaker driver voice coils is effectively part of the cables that attach the speaker to the amplifier.

Invariably, speaker voice coil wire is solid copper or occasionally aluminum wire with enamel insulation. Not even stranded and no fancy dielectric insulation. It is possible that in some cases the voice coil wire is of similar length to the speaker cables.
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post #99 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 07:45 AM
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You and the wire manufacturer are all wrong . .

It's obvious that the speaker wire should have an arrow on the wire pointing from the amp to the speaker on the +ve connector and an arrow on the wire pointing from the speaker to amp on the -ve connector

because the positive wire pushes stuff to the speaker and the negative wire returns it to the amp for re-cycling after it's been used, innit?
:-)
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post #100 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 07:53 AM
 
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because the positive wire pushes stuff to the speaker and the negative wire returns it to the amp for re-cycling after it's been used, innit?

More sarcasm?
What happens on the next cycle when polarity reverses?
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post #101 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:09 AM
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What happens on the next cycle when polarity reverses?

Why, the arrows change direction. Haven't you noticed?

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #102 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:11 AM
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Tell me why one component can have what you would deem perfect measurements on the bench but the majority of reviewers did not like the sound. Then they listen to a component that measures what you may consider horribly, but most agree that it sounds great?

Because audio reviewers all have their heads so far up their asses that they can't hear anything clearly. So they just make stuff up.

A question back at you: How come these reviewers can hear the differences between all these components when they know which is which, but the minute you throw a cloth over the top so they can't read the labels, their hearing goes to pot?

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #103 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:13 AM
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They claim to have science on their side, yet have no intellectual curiosity to even listen to "high-end" systems to see if they can hear a difference.

If that's your idea of intellectual curiosity, it explains a lot.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #104 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Because audio reviewers all have their heads so far up their asses that they can't hear anything clearly. So they just make stuff up.

A question back at you: How come these reviewers can hear the differences between all these components when they know which is which, but the minute you throw a cloth over the top so they can't read the labels, their hearing goes to pot?

Your twisting it up again. I was talking about measurements vs what the listener thinks, not differences between components.

And maybe I should not have used reviewers, how about when someone comes into your home and hears your system for the first time and they are amazed that they never heard anything so good.....but the measurements say it sucks.

Measurements are needed to get something built to spec, not what you listen to. You go on and buy everything according to numbers since you don't care to trust your own ears and brain. Maybe in your case, you just can't hear a difference between a $100 AVR and a real amp. And thats a good thing for you and your pocket.

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post #105 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

Your twisting it up again. I was talking about measurements vs what the listener thinks, not differences between components.

And maybe I should not have used reviewers, how about when someone comes into your home and hears your system for the first time and they are amazed that they never heard anything so good.....but the measurements say it sucks.

Measurements are needed to get something built to spec, not what you listen to. You go on and buy everything according to numbers since you don't care to trust your own ears and brain. Maybe in your case, you just can't hear a difference between a $100 AVR and a real amp. And thats a good thing for you and your pocket.

Good plan - when lacking evidence to defend a position, always go to the old "if it costs more, it must be better" refrain.
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post #106 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by txmxer View Post

If you take the information from your post and look at it analytically, the answer is that subjective listening is not useful as a means for measuring performance. If you consider the experiences people have doing blind tests, the results are always random or inconclusive.

The same person can be in a different mood and have a different response to the same source he/she previously found good (or bad). It's just a fact of being human.

I know when I listen to the radio, a song will come on that I love and I'm just not in the mood to hear it. Another time, the same song will be just what I wanted to hear.

My take is that one cannot design a superior product by democracy i.e Surveys, Focus groups etc. I would be very vary of people's opinions who have nothing better to do in their life and have enough time to respond to surveys.

There has to be passion in the person who is designing it as well as the person who is auditioning it. Case in point: Dynaudio speakers, Apple iPhone, ipod, BMW cars, etc

Every super successful project/initiative in known history has been the result of one person, one leader leading the masses to do what he/she believes is the right way of doing things.
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post #107 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Good plan - when lacking evidence to defend a position, always go to the old "if it costs more, it must be better" refrain.


And I suppose your in the Everything sounds the same camp? A $100 AVR will sound every bit as good as a $1000 amp. Again, great, your audio hobby is on the cheap and you can't hear the differences anyway.

I have 3 different amps that when placed between the same pre and speakers using the same CDP and music, produce different sounding output, regardless of the specs, price, or quality of amp. I won't use the word "better" here, just different and 3 different people will prefer 3 different sounding outputs. Why? Because we all hear the same things a little differently.

You know as well as I do that is is an ongoing and never ending argument. Nobody can prove that numbers on a paper sound better than certain gear with lesser numbers.

What do you use to listen to music? Only one correct answer, your ears.

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post #108 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by David James View Post

This is really a classic example of a subjectivist post. A bunch of claims without a shred of evidence. There is nothing here to refute as no facts have been presented. Considering he is claiming people here on this forum believe certain things, you'd think he'd have a bit of motivation to find the source and quote the claims.

But believers don't work that way.

eh? Believers just believe. They never need any proof. Proof in this case. God.
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post #109 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:55 AM
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Can anyone here tell me why the iphone is such as success?
All of the measurements of the first 3 generations of the iphones were worse than competing HTC phones that were running Windows and Android. Even then iphones sold more. Can anybody explain why it was claimed to be superior? No. It was not marketing. Apple never pushed it. In fact the success of the first generation iphone pushed apple to be more creative and do a better marketing job.
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post #110 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

eh? Believers just believe. They never need any proof. Proof in this case. God.

Figures someone would interject religion here. I don't believe in the man made gods of organized religion, but I do believe my own ears when something sounds good or lousy.

Maybe I should have just ask god tho, huh?

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post #111 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Can anyone here tell me why the iphone is such as success?
All of the measurements of the first 3 generations of the iphones were worse than competing HTC phones that were running Windows and Android. Even then iphones sold more. Can anybody explain why it was claimed to be superior? No. It was not marketing. Apple never pushed it. In fact the success of the first generation iphone pushed apple to be more creative and do a better marketing job.

Sheep and the addiction to every new pc of technology that comes along.

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post #112 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

Figures someone would interject religion here. I don't believe in the man made gods of organized religion, but I do believe my own ears when something sounds good or lousy.

Maybe I should have just ask god tho, huh?

I was simply responding to the definition of believers. Nothing more or personal here.

By the way, how many over here buy cars based upon "specs" alone?
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post #113 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

Sheep and the addiction to every new pc of technology that comes along.

Sadly, the iphone is a superior product because it defies traditional specs and measurements and gave emphasis to intangible "feel". Something that cannot be measured.
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post #114 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

And I suppose your in the Everything sounds the same camp? A $100 AVR will sound every bit as good as a $1000 amp. Again, great, your audio hobby is on the cheap and you can't hear the differences anyway.

I have 3 different amps that when placed between the same pre and speakers using the same CDP and music, produce different sounding output, regardless of the specs, price, or quality of amp. I won't use the word "better" here, just different and 3 different people will prefer 3 different sounding outputs. Why? Because we all hear the same things a little differently.

You know as well as I do that is is an ongoing and never ending argument. Nobody can prove that numbers on a paper sound better than certain gear with lesser numbers.

What do you use to listen to music? Only one correct answer, your ears.

You certainly are the master of bad assumptions. While my setup is not the most expensive rig on AVS, by most standards, it's expensive. The difference between you and I is that my investments are heavily tilted to where the biggest benefits are (speakers & subs, EQ, speakers & subs, measuring gear). I'm pretty fortunate, so if a $10000 amp or $1000 interconnect made a difference, I'd be more than willing to make the investment. Tried the voodoo cable approach a while back before I understood some of the science involved, and in a SBT conducted in my room, couldn't pick them out. That drove my interest in learning about the physics of sound reproduction, and while I'm not the expert some are here, it became clear why properly constructed wires and amps won't have perceptible differences to the human ear when run in spec.

Regardless of what you claim about discerning the different amps, assuming they are solid state and functioning correctly, you won't be able to identify them in a DBT.
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post #115 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Sadly, the iphone is a superior product because it defies traditional specs and measurements and gave emphasis to intangible "feel". Something that cannot be measured.

Do you really think every little girl with a pink iphone knows anything about specs?

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And maybe I should not have used reviewers, how about when someone comes into your home and hears your system for the first time and they are amazed that they never heard anything so good.....but the measurements say it sucks.

But the measurements of my system don't suck. What's your point?

Look, the real difference between you and me is my knowledge of the relevant science here and your ignorance of it. That science tells me that any human being's subjective impression of sound quality is unreliable, because it is too easily influenced by factors other than the sound. You're the perfect example; You're influenced by price tags and what reviewers say. You couldn't give an honest, independent assessment of sound quality if your life depended on it. You only think you can hear a difference between a cheap AVR and a megabuck amp because you hear with your wallet, not your ears. Without a pricetag, you'd be hopeless.

Your belief that there's no correlation between measurements and perceived sound quality is another example of your scientific ignorance. There is a clear correlation—if you know how to assess perceived sound quality in a meaningful way. When measurements are similar, things sound the same in blind comparisons. When measurements are sufficiently different, they do not. Toole and Olive have demonstrated a clear relationship between certain measurements and the perceived sound quality of speakers.

By contrast, there's no correlation between measurements and the audiophool imagination. If you like the world better that way, I can only pity you.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #117 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

Do you really think every little girl with a pink iphone knows anything about specs?

No, but I'd bet CIO's leading IT groups distributing applications and data securely to the iOS platforms do. What's your point?

So far you've denigrated two large communities here because of false assumptions - gonna go for the triple crown with a 3rd?
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post #118 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Then why are you two still here? There are other forums that are different.
Unless you both like it here...

I'm here because I was attacked right away and Labeled because I posted that all my cables had directional markings on them. I never said they did anything or what I believed them to do. But I was attacked about it anyway. I also never said what they cost, I said higher end, which meant not black and reds and not $15 home depot (whatever they sell) cables. My Synergistic cables came into the conversation later and I basically got them for free.

Would you not use them if you got them for free? Arrows or otherwise?

I am also here because I am learning. I'm not a rock or brick wall, stubborn maybe. I am also no stranger to heated discussion boards and threads like this. I have a thick skin, can take criticism without running away.

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post #119 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 10:28 AM
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Finding and using the best possible cables is one of the fun parts of the audio hobby.

When I bought my bi-ampable speakers (because they sounded very good), the A/V store was kind enough to include (at no additional charge) a set of 4-conductor cables expressly designed for bi-amping or bi-wiring: they contained woofer wires which were quite a bit thicker than the high frequency wires: woofers need more power, draw more current and larger wires provide less resistance.

I twisted the wires all together at both ends of the cables and left the speaker straps in place.

They sound just fine

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post #120 of 206 Old 05-02-2012, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

And I suppose your in the Everything sounds the same camp? A $100 AVR will sound every bit as good as a $1000 amp. Again, great, your audio hobby is on the cheap and you can't hear the differences anyway.

I have 3 different amps that when placed between the same pre and speakers using the same CDP and music, produce different sounding output, regardless of the specs, price, or quality of amp. I won't use the word "better" here, just different and 3 different people will prefer 3 different sounding outputs. Why? Because we all hear the same things a little differently.

You know as well as I do that is is an ongoing and never ending argument. Nobody can prove that numbers on a paper sound better than certain gear with lesser numbers.

What do you use to listen to music? Only one correct answer, your ears.

Nobody in this thread would question this postulate that your amps in fact do sound different without knowing more about your amps, speakers, and listening environment. I don't think you understand the contention points.
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