why does blu ray have reduced dynamic range compared to DVD in the same player? - AVS Forum

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Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

aintree's Avatar aintree
10:50 PM Liked: 10
post #1 of 18
05-24-2012 | Posts: 7
Joined: Mar 2012
I've recently upgraded to a blu ray player and have re-purchased some of my old DVDs in the newer blu ray format.

However I notice that the dynamic range of the blu ray is less than the dynamic range of the DVD when played in the same Sony BDP580 player. This seems counter intuitive to me. Note, that my amp does not recognise the newer lossless audio formats and so the comparison between both blu-ray and dvd is via DD 5.1 only

Frankly, I prefer the sound from my old DVDs

I don't have DRC on at either my amp (Linn 5103) or BD player. The Sony has BD Audio MIX to off (fixes a distorted centre channel that some have described) and Audio DRC to Off, with Dolby Digital selected. Any ideas because there's something wrong here.

I've also posted this in the Sony BDP580 thread - hope that's OK mods, if not please delete whichever is in the wrong section.

Cheers
MrBobb's Avatar MrBobb
11:34 PM Liked: 32
post #2 of 18
05-24-2012 | Posts: 3,345
Joined: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by aintree View Post

because there's something wrong here.

No kidding.

Some players have a Dynamic Compression setting, for people who don't want to disturb the other family members late at night, but I it would be dumb to put this in a BR player, but hey...

The other thing is, does the BR disc have separate tracks for DD5.1 and HD? Or is the BR player taking the HD tracks and compress it on-the-fly for your 5.1 amp? Suspecting bad transcoder here, or wrong hidden setting.
derrickdj1's Avatar derrickdj1
01:09 AM Liked: 155
post #3 of 18
05-25-2012 | Posts: 1,562
Joined: Sep 2011
Some older DVD's don't confrom the the current standard for the LFE and the LFE channel is player back 10db higher. Is you BD player set to bit stream? This may make a difference. What type of inter-connect are you using?
Roger Dressler's Avatar Roger Dressler
02:25 AM Liked: 365
post #4 of 18
05-25-2012 | Posts: 8,979
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Which titles are you referring to?
arnyk's Avatar arnyk
06:44 AM Liked: 1178
post #5 of 18
05-25-2012 | Posts: 14,387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Which titles are you referring to?

Also - how is he measuring dynamics?
Ethan Winer's Avatar Ethan Winer
11:22 AM Liked: 134
post #6 of 18
05-25-2012 | Posts: 5,748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Also - how is he measuring dynamics?

^^^ This.
William's Avatar William
01:18 PM Liked: 45
post #7 of 18
05-25-2012 | Posts: 8,411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Also - how is he measuring dynamics?

I bet the OP is confusing attenuation with dynamic range. It could be the BD is -4dB because of Dialogue Normalization and the DVD is at 0dB.
aintree's Avatar aintree
03:00 PM Liked: 10
post #8 of 18
05-25-2012 | Posts: 7
Joined: Mar 2012
Thank you all for your replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBobb View Post

No kidding.

Some players have a Dynamic Compression setting, for people who don't want to disturb the other family members late at night, but I it would be dumb to put this in a BR player, but hey...

I definately have DRC off. I'm no fan of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBobb View Post

The other thing is, does the BR disc have separate tracks for DD5.1 and HD? Or is the BR player taking the HD tracks and compress it on-the-fly for your 5.1 amp? Suspecting bad transcoder here, or wrong hidden setting.

While the particular disc I'm referring to does have a separate DD5.1 track, but you may be onto something here. I'll go back to some of the other discs I've noticed the problem on to double check though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Some older DVD's don't confrom the the current standard for the LFE and the LFE channel is player back 10db higher.

Now this is interesting. Tell me more about this. Certainly none of the larger effects have the weight on BR as they have on DVD, and as I don't have a sub (but have capable Linn Keilidh floorstanding fronts) I have the told the amp (Linn 5103) that my speakers are large so some of the LFE signal is being sent to them. If 10dB less signal is being sent to them I would certainly perceive this as a drop in dynamic range. Most noticeable in action titles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Is you BD player set to bit stream? This may make a difference. What type of inter-connect are you using?

It is. As my amp is older and only has 5.1 I'm outputting the signal via the Sony BDP-580s SPDIF Co-ax out, and have the [Dolby Digital] setting in the BR player menu set to [Dolby Digital] rather than [Downmix PCM]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Which titles are you referring to?

This time it's V-for Vendetta, region A UK version. However I've noticed the same drop in dynamic range for other titles I don't already own on DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

I bet the OP is confusing attenuation with dynamic range. It could be the BD is -4dB because of Dialogue Normalization and the DVD is at 0dB.

No. While I certainly notice that the BR is somewhat quieter than the DVD, this is not what I'm referring to. I can level match the dialogue either by ear or with a SPL meter and yet there is no weight / impact / excitement on action sequences with the BR title.

Derrick suggestion has got me thinking. I read this post, but am still struggling somewhat. Both the 5.1 signal from the DVD (played in my BR player) and the 5.1 signal from the same title on BR pass through the same interconnect (SPDIF Coaxial out). How can I test this further?

Cheers
JHAz's Avatar JHAz
03:45 PM Liked: 167
post #9 of 18
05-25-2012 | Posts: 4,043
Joined: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by aintree View Post

Thank you all for your replies.

I definately have DRC off. I'm no fan of it.

While the particular disc I'm referring to does have a separate DD5.1 track, but you may be onto something here. I'll go back to some of the other discs I've noticed the problem on to double check though.

Now this is interesting. Tell me more about this. Certainly none of the larger effects have the weight on BR as they have on DVD, and as I don't have a sub (but have capable Linn Keilidh floorstanding fronts) I have the told the amp (Linn 5103) that my speakers are large so some of the LFE signal is being sent to them. If 10dB less signal is being sent to them I would certainly perceive this as a drop in dynamic range. Most noticeable in action titles.

It is. As my amp is older and only has 5.1 I'm outputting the signal via the Sony BDP-580s SPDIF Co-ax out, and have the [Dolby Digital] setting in the BR player menu set to [Dolby Digital] rather than [Downmix PCM]

This time it's V-for Vendetta, region A UK version. However I've noticed the same drop in dynamic range for other titles I don't already own on DVD

No. While I certainly notice that the BR is somewhat quieter than the DVD, this is not what I'm referring to. I can level match the dialogue either by ear or with a SPL meter and yet there is no weight / impact / excitement on action sequences with the BR title.

Derrick suggestion has got me thinking. I read this post, but am still struggling somewhat. Both the 5.1 signal from the DVD (played in my BR player) and the 5.1 signal from the same title on BR pass through the same interconnect (SPDIF Coaxial out). How can I test this further?

Cheers

The us version of v for vendetta has the dialog mixed veru low. Thats not lower dyn range but could indicate greater than normal average to peak dynamic range. Yhe peak is essentially a fixed vslue at zero dBFS and you simply cannot encode louder than that regardless of the digital system in use. The quieter the quiet parts are, the greater the effective dynamic range assuming the signal reaches 0 dBFS.
Kilian.ca's Avatar Kilian.ca
06:04 PM Liked: 36
post #10 of 18
05-25-2012 | Posts: 1,901
Joined: Mar 2007
What reviews say about V for V BD audio track (one can assume the Warner BD is the same in US and elsewhere).

Blu-ray.com:
The dynamic range is wide, and on occasion the bass is deep and powerful not only in the LFE, but in the main front speakers as well.

highdefdigest.com:
First off, the biggest problem with the previous DVD release has been fixed here. Gone are most of the poorly balanced volume levels, with dialogue now more prominent in the mix, and no longer overwhelmed by the effects. This is doubly important in 'V for Vendetta,' as the film is so full of long, pontificating speeches and intricate monologues. Also boosted is dynamic range.

dvdtalk.com:
On the plus side, a dialogue balance issue found on the standard DVD has been corrected, and when compared to the Dolby Digital mix, the range and fidelity [of the new lossless mix] are much improved. I still found that while the dialogue is no longer buried by the effects, I found myself reaching for the volume control whenever the film switched from conversation to action and vice versa.

In any case the Keilidh speakers have FR listed as 50Hz-20kHz +/-2dB, not that low at all.
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar J_Palmer_Cass
06:09 PM Liked: 104
post #11 of 18
05-25-2012 | Posts: 6,475
Joined: May 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by aintree View Post


Certainly none of the larger effects have the weight on BR as they have on DVD, and as I don't have a sub (but have capable Linn Keilidh floorstanding fronts) I have the told the amp (Linn 5103) that my speakers are large so some of the LFE signal is being sent to them.


Do you have a center speaker and surround speakers in use (AKA 5.0) in addition to the R & L mains? Are all speakers set to large, or are some of them set to small?
YeuEmMaiMai's Avatar YeuEmMaiMai
01:37 AM Liked: 11
post #12 of 18
05-26-2012 | Posts: 1,076
Joined: Apr 2002
There are definately some BD-Roms that have poor level on the soundtrack. Captain America is one of them. Go read the BD-Rom review of that disk on this site and you will see it is the number one complaint. It really shows it's self when you play it back against something like Star Trek or Iron Man.
aintree's Avatar aintree
10:43 PM Liked: 10
post #13 of 18
05-27-2012 | Posts: 7
Joined: Mar 2012
Thank you all, and I think some of the latter posters are on to something.

I've since sourced and listened to a number of other Blu-rays and compared them to my DVD copies (most not action titles for the moment) - The Matrix, Traffic and Shawshank. In each of these cases the BR audio quality (DD or DTS 5.1 played through my 5 speakers all set to large) equalled or exceeded the DVD version. In my small sample size of 4 so far, it is only V-for Vendetta where the DVD mix is vastly different to the BR with the effects far more prominent.

I do believe I'll pay more attention to the BR review sites from now on.
pokekevin's Avatar pokekevin
07:39 AM Liked: 101
post #14 of 18
05-28-2012 | Posts: 5,071
Joined: Jun 2011
Why set to large?
aintree's Avatar aintree
05:35 PM Liked: 10
post #15 of 18
05-28-2012 | Posts: 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Why set to large?

because they are large
pokekevin's Avatar pokekevin
06:14 PM Liked: 101
post #16 of 18
05-28-2012 | Posts: 5,071
Joined: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by aintree View Post


because they are large

How large is large?? Haha. You using a subwoofer?
William's Avatar William
05:35 AM Liked: 45
post #17 of 18
05-29-2012 | Posts: 8,411
Joined: Apr 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by aintree View Post

because they are large

That's actually NOT a good reason since in most cases the correct location for imaging is not the best location for low frequency response. In almost all cases the only reason to set mains to large is lack of a subwoofer.

The Large/Small setting is some what of a misnomer since logic would dictate it was asking for the actual size of the speaker (which works for bookshelf but not towers). When if fact it is actually asking to do low frequency steering to the sub.
aintree's Avatar aintree
06:12 PM Liked: 10
post #18 of 18
05-29-2012 | Posts: 7
Joined: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

That's actually NOT a good reason since in most cases the correct location for imaging is not the best location for low frequency response. In almost all cases the only reason to set mains to large is lack of a subwoofer.

The Large/Small setting is some what of a misnomer since logic would dictate it was asking for the actual size of the speaker (which works for bookshelf but not towers). When if fact it is actually asking to do low frequency steering to the sub.

You'll note in post #8 above I mentioned I don't have a sub
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