why does blu ray have reduced dynamic range compared to DVD in the same player? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 18 Old 05-24-2012, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
aintree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've recently upgraded to a blu ray player and have re-purchased some of my old DVDs in the newer blu ray format.

However I notice that the dynamic range of the blu ray is less than the dynamic range of the DVD when played in the same Sony BDP580 player. This seems counter intuitive to me. Note, that my amp does not recognise the newer lossless audio formats and so the comparison between both blu-ray and dvd is via DD 5.1 only

Frankly, I prefer the sound from my old DVDs

I don't have DRC on at either my amp (Linn 5103) or BD player. The Sony has BD Audio MIX to off (fixes a distorted centre channel that some have described) and Audio DRC to Off, with Dolby Digital selected. Any ideas because there's something wrong here.

I've also posted this in the Sony BDP580 thread - hope that's OK mods, if not please delete whichever is in the wrong section.

Cheers
aintree is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 Old 05-24-2012, 10:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MrBobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by aintree View Post

because there's something wrong here.

No kidding.

Some players have a Dynamic Compression setting, for people who don't want to disturb the other family members late at night, but I it would be dumb to put this in a BR player, but hey...

The other thing is, does the BR disc have separate tracks for DD5.1 and HD? Or is the BR player taking the HD tracks and compress it on-the-fly for your 5.1 amp? Suspecting bad transcoder here, or wrong hidden setting.
MrBobb is online now  
post #3 of 18 Old 05-25-2012, 12:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
derrickdj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,499
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 149
Some older DVD's don't confrom the the current standard for the LFE and the LFE channel is player back 10db higher. Is you BD player set to bit stream? This may make a difference. What type of inter-connect are you using?

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
derrickdj1 is offline  
post #4 of 18 Old 05-25-2012, 01:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,723
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 587 Post(s)
Liked: 310
Which titles are you referring to?
Roger Dressler is online now  
post #5 of 18 Old 05-25-2012, 05:44 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,382
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 753 Post(s)
Liked: 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Which titles are you referring to?

Also - how is he measuring dynamics?
arnyk is offline  
post #6 of 18 Old 05-25-2012, 10:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: New Milford, CT, USA
Posts: 5,748
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Also - how is he measuring dynamics?

^^^ This.

RealTraps - The acoustic treatment experts
Ethan's Audio Expert book

Ethan Winer is offline  
post #7 of 18 Old 05-25-2012, 12:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
William's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Also - how is he measuring dynamics?

I bet the OP is confusing attenuation with dynamic range. It could be the BD is -4dB because of Dialogue Normalization and the DVD is at 0dB.
William is offline  
post #8 of 18 Old 05-25-2012, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
aintree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you all for your replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBobb View Post

No kidding.

Some players have a Dynamic Compression setting, for people who don't want to disturb the other family members late at night, but I it would be dumb to put this in a BR player, but hey...

I definately have DRC off. I'm no fan of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBobb View Post

The other thing is, does the BR disc have separate tracks for DD5.1 and HD? Or is the BR player taking the HD tracks and compress it on-the-fly for your 5.1 amp? Suspecting bad transcoder here, or wrong hidden setting.

While the particular disc I'm referring to does have a separate DD5.1 track, but you may be onto something here. I'll go back to some of the other discs I've noticed the problem on to double check though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Some older DVD's don't confrom the the current standard for the LFE and the LFE channel is player back 10db higher.

Now this is interesting. Tell me more about this. Certainly none of the larger effects have the weight on BR as they have on DVD, and as I don't have a sub (but have capable Linn Keilidh floorstanding fronts) I have the told the amp (Linn 5103) that my speakers are large so some of the LFE signal is being sent to them. If 10dB less signal is being sent to them I would certainly perceive this as a drop in dynamic range. Most noticeable in action titles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Is you BD player set to bit stream? This may make a difference. What type of inter-connect are you using?

It is. As my amp is older and only has 5.1 I'm outputting the signal via the Sony BDP-580s SPDIF Co-ax out, and have the [Dolby Digital] setting in the BR player menu set to [Dolby Digital] rather than [Downmix PCM]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Which titles are you referring to?

This time it's V-for Vendetta, region A UK version. However I've noticed the same drop in dynamic range for other titles I don't already own on DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

I bet the OP is confusing attenuation with dynamic range. It could be the BD is -4dB because of Dialogue Normalization and the DVD is at 0dB.

No. While I certainly notice that the BR is somewhat quieter than the DVD, this is not what I'm referring to. I can level match the dialogue either by ear or with a SPL meter and yet there is no weight / impact / excitement on action sequences with the BR title.

Derrick suggestion has got me thinking. I read this post, but am still struggling somewhat. Both the 5.1 signal from the DVD (played in my BR player) and the 5.1 signal from the same title on BR pass through the same interconnect (SPDIF Coaxial out). How can I test this further?

Cheers
aintree is offline  
post #9 of 18 Old 05-25-2012, 02:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JHAz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,982
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by aintree View Post

Thank you all for your replies.

I definately have DRC off. I'm no fan of it.

While the particular disc I'm referring to does have a separate DD5.1 track, but you may be onto something here. I'll go back to some of the other discs I've noticed the problem on to double check though.

Now this is interesting. Tell me more about this. Certainly none of the larger effects have the weight on BR as they have on DVD, and as I don't have a sub (but have capable Linn Keilidh floorstanding fronts) I have the told the amp (Linn 5103) that my speakers are large so some of the LFE signal is being sent to them. If 10dB less signal is being sent to them I would certainly perceive this as a drop in dynamic range. Most noticeable in action titles.

It is. As my amp is older and only has 5.1 I'm outputting the signal via the Sony BDP-580s SPDIF Co-ax out, and have the [Dolby Digital] setting in the BR player menu set to [Dolby Digital] rather than [Downmix PCM]

This time it's V-for Vendetta, region A UK version. However I've noticed the same drop in dynamic range for other titles I don't already own on DVD

No. While I certainly notice that the BR is somewhat quieter than the DVD, this is not what I'm referring to. I can level match the dialogue either by ear or with a SPL meter and yet there is no weight / impact / excitement on action sequences with the BR title.

Derrick suggestion has got me thinking. I read this post, but am still struggling somewhat. Both the 5.1 signal from the DVD (played in my BR player) and the 5.1 signal from the same title on BR pass through the same interconnect (SPDIF Coaxial out). How can I test this further?

Cheers

The us version of v for vendetta has the dialog mixed veru low. Thats not lower dyn range but could indicate greater than normal average to peak dynamic range. Yhe peak is essentially a fixed vslue at zero dBFS and you simply cannot encode louder than that regardless of the digital system in use. The quieter the quiet parts are, the greater the effective dynamic range assuming the signal reaches 0 dBFS.
JHAz is offline  
post #10 of 18 Old 05-25-2012, 05:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kilian.ca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ex-50Hz, now 60Hz
Posts: 1,901
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 36
What reviews say about V for V BD audio track (one can assume the Warner BD is the same in US and elsewhere).

Blu-ray.com:
The dynamic range is wide, and on occasion the bass is deep and powerful not only in the LFE, but in the main front speakers as well.

highdefdigest.com:
First off, the biggest problem with the previous DVD release has been fixed here. Gone are most of the poorly balanced volume levels, with dialogue now more prominent in the mix, and no longer overwhelmed by the effects. This is doubly important in 'V for Vendetta,' as the film is so full of long, pontificating speeches and intricate monologues. Also boosted is dynamic range.

dvdtalk.com:
On the plus side, a dialogue balance issue found on the standard DVD has been corrected, and when compared to the Dolby Digital mix, the range and fidelity [of the new lossless mix] are much improved. I still found that while the dialogue is no longer buried by the effects, I found myself reaching for the volume control whenever the film switched from conversation to action and vice versa.

In any case the Keilidh speakers have FR listed as 50Hz-20kHz +/-2dB, not that low at all.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

Kilian.ca is offline  
post #11 of 18 Old 05-25-2012, 05:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by aintree View Post


Certainly none of the larger effects have the weight on BR as they have on DVD, and as I don't have a sub (but have capable Linn Keilidh floorstanding fronts) I have the told the amp (Linn 5103) that my speakers are large so some of the LFE signal is being sent to them.


Do you have a center speaker and surround speakers in use (AKA 5.0) in addition to the R & L mains? Are all speakers set to large, or are some of them set to small?
J_Palmer_Cass is offline  
post #12 of 18 Old 05-26-2012, 12:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
YeuEmMaiMai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,076
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
There are definately some BD-Roms that have poor level on the soundtrack. Captain America is one of them. Go read the BD-Rom review of that disk on this site and you will see it is the number one complaint. It really shows it's self when you play it back against something like Star Trek or Iron Man.

Strong or weak in the end we are all dead
YeuEmMaiMai is offline  
post #13 of 18 Old 05-27-2012, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
aintree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you all, and I think some of the latter posters are on to something.

I've since sourced and listened to a number of other Blu-rays and compared them to my DVD copies (most not action titles for the moment) - The Matrix, Traffic and Shawshank. In each of these cases the BR audio quality (DD or DTS 5.1 played through my 5 speakers all set to large) equalled or exceeded the DVD version. In my small sample size of 4 so far, it is only V-for Vendetta where the DVD mix is vastly different to the BR with the effects far more prominent.

I do believe I'll pay more attention to the BR review sites from now on.
aintree is offline  
post #14 of 18 Old 05-28-2012, 06:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
pokekevin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 5,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 101
Why set to large?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
pokekevin is offline  
post #15 of 18 Old 05-28-2012, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
aintree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Why set to large?

because they are large
aintree is offline  
post #16 of 18 Old 05-28-2012, 05:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
pokekevin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 5,070
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by aintree View Post


because they are large

How large is large?? Haha. You using a subwoofer?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
pokekevin is offline  
post #17 of 18 Old 05-29-2012, 04:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
William's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by aintree View Post

because they are large

That's actually NOT a good reason since in most cases the correct location for imaging is not the best location for low frequency response. In almost all cases the only reason to set mains to large is lack of a subwoofer.

The Large/Small setting is some what of a misnomer since logic would dictate it was asking for the actual size of the speaker (which works for bookshelf but not towers). When if fact it is actually asking to do low frequency steering to the sub.
William is offline  
post #18 of 18 Old 05-29-2012, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
aintree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

That's actually NOT a good reason since in most cases the correct location for imaging is not the best location for low frequency response. In almost all cases the only reason to set mains to large is lack of a subwoofer.

The Large/Small setting is some what of a misnomer since logic would dictate it was asking for the actual size of the speaker (which works for bookshelf but not towers). When if fact it is actually asking to do low frequency steering to the sub.

You'll note in post #8 above I mentioned I don't have a sub
aintree is offline  
Reply Audio theory, Setup and Chat

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off