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Old 06-08-2012, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm considering my options for a multi-sub processing approach. I've mentioned this in other threads, however I've not started a new thread with this question. I want the capability for at least four separate subs, I'll have three, and perhaps add another sub down the road, to total four.

I'd strongly considered the dbx260, however I've looked at Xilica, miniDSP, Symetrix Jupiter, QSC, and others. I'd like usual functionality stuff, high pass/low pass, multi-band parametric EQ'ing, and delay time alignment., etc.

Sometime down the road, I'd consider the versatility (and complexity) of some full 8x8 processor, for all mains/surrounds, and all the adjustment functionality that would accompany such a piece. The more I explore loudspeaker management for home use, the more I contemplate utilizing one for everything,...and all that's availed to us via these great DSP pieces. That's beyond the scope and focus of this thread.

Sub processing; ...experiences,....thoughts?

Thanks

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:50 PM
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I'm using a (modified) DCX and will soon purchase a standard MiniDSP as I will eventually have 10 subs.

The only "potential" limitation the MD has is it's short delay, but the 8x8 might have more, I've not looked into it personally. That said, it might not be an issue at all, and I doubt it will be in my installation.

All of the others are much more expensive and offer no benefit I can see over the DCX or MD unless they have some unique feature that is absolutely necessary in your installation.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:38 AM
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I have only used a handful of processors, BASSIS, standard studio grade analog PEQ, and a 1124 FD. I delved into the digital, knobless ( hahaha ) world of the MiniDSP and you know how happy that thing made me.

Wish i had more to say, but the Mini offers a real turnkey solution, especially with your plans to EQ 4 separate subwoofers. The Balanced version ( with 4way advanced plugins ) is about $175 shipped. Between that and the OmniMic sale price of $250, i have some pretty powerful tools to shape my.............bottom end:D

I look forward to what you find along the way, subscribed....
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I appreciate the responses,.....still examining my options, as I've got another week or so prior to full implementation of all three sub sources.

Thanks

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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Old 06-10-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I'm considering my options for a multi-sub processing approach. I've mentioned this in other threads, however I've not started a new thread with this question. I want the capability for at least four separate subs, I'll have three, and perhaps add another sub down the road, to total four.
I'd strongly considered the dbx260, however I've looked at Xilica, miniDSP, Symetrix Jupiter, QSC, and others. I'd like usual functionality stuff, high pass/low pass, multi-band parametric EQ'ing, and delay time alignment., etc.
Sometime down the road, I'd consider the versatility (and complexity) of some full 8x8 processor, for all mains/surrounds, and all the adjustment functionality that would accompany such a piece. The more I explore loudspeaker management for home use, the more I contemplate utilizing one for everything,...and all that's availed to us via these great DSP pieces. That's beyond the scope and focus of this thread.
Sub processing; ...experiences,....thoughts?
Thanks

what can dbx260 do that DCX2496 can't?
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Old 06-12-2012, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

what can dbx260 do that DCX2496 can't?

I've never used the DCX. I've experimented w/the GUI, etc. I'm not entirely aware of everything the dbx has over the Behringer, but I do know a few differences. The dbx features are mostly rooted in live/pro applications. It's got a RTA (Real Time Analyzer), dual band Sub-Harmonic synthesis, and I believe it would have a better resale % of initial outlay if I were so inclined as to get rid of it. On the other hand, the DCX is nearly disposably priced,...so maybe it's a wash. The Peavy seemingly offers a lot for the money, but I know nothing about it, heard nothing about it. Watched a tutorial video, whereby the unit auto EQ's in a relatively interesting manner,...listening for nulls that can't be EQ'd, then backing those filters off to unity.

There's others like the Xilica, and Sabine (which I really like the GUI). I've been downloading and experimenting with several of the interfaces,...I just wanted some additional input from others around here with multi-sub optimizing hands on experience with these units.

Thanks,...further thoughts?

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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Old 06-12-2012, 03:57 PM
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I used a DCX2496 for several years and liked its flexibility. I also owned a miniDSP and bought the software and messed around with it but never used it in my system. I sold both to local forum members since I didn't end up needing them.

If you want the best flexibility then you need to use the computer as source, a pro audio device, and JRiver Media Center. If you are 5.1, you can use an 8 channel audio device like the Steinberg MR816x or Orpheus Prism and use it as a 5.3 device. If you are 7.1, then you need more channels on your audio device and can go for an Audiofire 12, RME Fireface UFX or Lynx Aurora 16. This will give you up to 9 channels to play with for subwoofers. This also gives you the option of have all balanced output if you use balanced amps. This also reduces the signal chain to source > audio device/DAC > amplifier > speaker for the best sound quality and less signal roll off.

You can then do the following and then some:

  • Use different crossover frequencies for all channels
  • Use different crossover slopes for the high pass on each channel (12, 24, 36, 48 dB/octave)
  • Use different crossover slopes for the low pass on the subwoofer(s) associated with each channel (12, 24, 36, 48 dB/octave)
  • Use different crossover frequencies for high and low pass filters (mains could have a high pass at 40 Hz, but subs could have a low pass at 60 Hz)
  • Keep channels full range, but still send their bass to subwoofer(s)
  • Copy or move bass from other channels to the mains
  • Copy bass from the mains to other channels and the subwoofer for a 2.1 system (utilizes the surrounds as more bass sources)
  • Apply distance settings to any channel
  • Adjust the distance on the fly while use the RTA in REW to ensure the best integration at the crossover
  • Apply delay to any channel
  • Reroute sound to any channel (useful for duplicating the LFE channel on additional channels for more subwoofers)
  • Delay the mains more than the subs (useful for horn mains with close sealed subs)
  • Unlimited parametric EQ filters with high/low pass filters, high/low shelf filters, and peaking filters
  • Use PEQ filters on all frequencies below the Schroeder frequency regardless of which channels are producing the output
  • Apply PEQ filters to any or all channels
  • EQ a DIY sub to a flat frequency response close mic before EQing to the room
  • EQ a sub only to the room and compare to the previous
  • Adjust internal gain to prevent filters from causing clipping
  • Compare two sets of filters while listening (any ringing artifacts?)
  • Easy to implement Linkwitz Transform (just enter current Fs and Q and desired Fs and Q)
  • Use a reverse Linkwitz Transform to lower the bass curve if you have low Fs drivers and too much room gain
  • Adjust the lipsync
  • Apply settings based on media type (for example, you could have different audio, video, and music video settings)
  • Use two front subwoofers in stereo for music, but route all bass to them for video
  • Add 10dB of gain to the LFE channel for those SACD's or DVD-Audio's that are mastered incorrectly
  • Limiter and Clip Protection
  • Sub harmonizer with the addition of Voxengo's LF Max Punch Sub harmonizer VST plugin
  • 64-bit processing for all DSP
  • Advanced volume protection with ability to set maximum system volume and reference level
  • Ability to route all computer audio through DSP (youtube, internet, games, etc.)
  • Visually see what is happening in any channel using VST plugins for spectograms and spectrum analyzers

That is all I can think of for now. At least maybe it will give you some ideas of things to try no matter which route you take.
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I used a DCX2496 for several years and liked its flexibility.

A friend of mine has an awesome 7.2 system. The crossovers are 3 each DCX 2496.
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Desertdome,
I do appreciate the comprehensive reply, I'm sure your system and the JRiver aspect is great. The first time I saw you refer to JRiver/those products, I went and looked around and checked out what I could. Do you have a product link? I don't like the structure of the website I found,..but perhaps that's just me.

I can appreciate the apparent flexibility, and if I read something that compelled me to pursue it I consider it. I don't want to route my audio in that manner. My main system is the family "daily driver", and any level of added operational complexity is a non-starter. Now system optimizing complexity, that's not really an issue. Right now I really like a few of the boxes I've found thus far.

Thanks

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

A friend of mine has an awesome 7.2 system. The crossovers are 3 each DCX 2496.

Thanks Arny,... how are the subs handled, manipulated, EQ'd, aligned?

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------------------------------------
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Old 06-14-2012, 01:56 AM
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I would recommend reading Floyd Toole's (The guy spent 30 years of his life doing research on the subject) book on this subject. I didn't know, so I did all miniDSP, DCX2496 tweaking/configuring experiment to no avail. If you want a simple solution then just buy JBL BassQ (based on Toole's research) and four subs and you are done. If you want to replicate that functionality then read the book, buy any digital crossove, setup REW and start playing. You would notice that a mono (LFE) type signal fed to all four subs with a crossover frequency (obviously) and proper sub placement should nullifies the need of frequency response correction. Add to that, carefull room treatment and you have a system that can compete.

You can add more subs then four, but they may not yield any significant benefits...
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aazeez1975 View Post

I would recommend reading Floyd Toole's (The guy spent 30 years of his life doing research on the subject) book on this subject.

I've read Toole's work, the book, and essentially every paper he's submitted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aazeez1975 View Post

I did all miniDSP, DCX2496 tweaking/configuring experiment to no avail.

I don't understand, you did the whole miniDSP, DCX thing to no avail.... Will you elaborate?


Quote:
Originally Posted by aazeez1975 View Post

If you want a simple solution then just buy JBL BassQ (based on Toole's research) and four subs and you are done. If you want to replicate that functionality then read the book, buy any digital crossove, setup REW and start playing. You would notice that a mono (LFE) type signal fed to all four subs with a crossover frequency (obviously) and proper sub placement should nullifies the need of frequency response correction. Add to that, carefull room treatment and you have a system that can compete.
You can add more subs then four, but they may not yield any significant benefits...

The JBL BassQ, what capability does it possess below the LFE/RB crossover that can't be achieved by one of the solutions I listed and am I'm considering?

Even with multiples, I fully expect to need individual EQ, and some global EQ. I may be mistaken, however every system optimization I've been a part of has benefited from frequency EQ. Certainly, the implementation of multiples changes the requirements, and hopefully lessens the overall frequency variations. And yes, my room will be treated,...hopefully minimizing the peaks and the nulls, and cleaning up the time domain,...rendering a tight well delineated, bottom end.

Thanks

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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Old 06-16-2012, 02:04 AM
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Hi

I have two REL Strata 5 looking after the mains (high level) and two Velodyne Digital Drive 15s.

I would highly reccomend purchasing the XTZ Room Analyzer. This program was the absolute for setting up all subs, especially the Velodynes. Using the XTZ PEQ suggestions totally turned my system around, also the other features in the XTZ Analyzer.

The system has never sounded so good after several years, both Hometheatre and 2 channel, especially.

I was very close to selling alot of my gear, especially the Velodynes, i could never get them to stop booming on some music.

I have absolutely no room treatment.

Do you want them to be setup in stereo or mono?
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Old 06-16-2012, 04:51 AM
 
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If you have any desire to do just modal analysis and PEQ, download free RoomEQWizard and use a $69 ART Dual USB Preamp from B&HPhoto, plus a calibrated Dayton EMM-6 mic from Cross Spectrum for $70 and a mic cable, an RCA recvr input cable , a short 2' TRS male to XLR male loopback cable, and an XLR to RCA adapter.

And absolutely, if you intend to anything more than modal analysis and PEQ, download RoomEQWizard.

RoomEQWizard, and if you desire a more comprehensive package, ARTA for 79Euros/~$105USD, both provide a more comprehensive set of time domain tools for the analysis and treatment of specular direct and indirect 'reflections' above ~250 Hz.

Modal analysis by use of waterfall/cumulative spectral decay plots and mapping a region by the playing of tones is a very simple and straightforward procedure. Likewise, if you desire to use PEQ (parametric EQ) below 100 Hz to augment placement and treatment, REW will generate the filters.

Above the modal frequencies you will need the use of additional time domain tools, principally the envelope time curve (ETC).
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Old 06-16-2012, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I've read Toole's work, the book, and essentially every paper he's submitted.
I don't understand, you did the whole miniDSP, DCX thing to no avail.... Will you elaborate?
The JBL BassQ, what capability does it possess below the LFE/RB crossover that can't be achieved by one of the solutions I listed and am I'm considering?
Even with multiples, I fully expect to need individual EQ, and some global EQ. I may be mistaken, however every system optimization I've been a part of has benefited from frequency EQ. Certainly, the implementation of multiples changes the requirements, and hopefully lessens the overall frequency variations. And yes, my room will be treated,...hopefully minimizing the peaks and the nulls, and cleaning up the time domain,...rendering a tight well delineated, bottom end.
Thanks

As I said you can achieve everything with digital crossovers and EQ, I was not talking about the possibility/capability to achieve result. I was talking about the hassle of getting there, and you end up with rack full of equipment and measurement tools. I achieved the same result with placing the sub and playing with level and crossover point as I did with rack full of equipment. Obviously, if you are geeking out then its different.
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I appreciate the responses,.....still examining my options, as I've got another week or so prior to full implementation of all three sub sources.
Thanks

If you don't have amplification chosen I would get some amps with DSP built in. I just got rid of my EP2500 and MiniDSP to use a Behringer iNuke 3000. Much tidier. Almost broken even on the deal to:)

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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Old 06-16-2012, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

I would highly reccomend purchasing the XTZ Room Analyzer. This program was the absolute for setting up all subs, especially the Velodynes. Using the XTZ PEQ suggestions totally turned my system around, also the other features in the XTZ Analyzer.

I have absolutely no room treatment.

Do you want them to be setup in stereo or mono?


You're right, measurement is fundamental, without it one's merely shooting in the dark,...especially with regard to sub-woofing.

You could take your system to another level with some treatment. Whether it's addressing specular reflections or bass trapping, typically pairing measurement with treatment offers solid results, and most likely should come before electronic solutions such as EQ'ing, etc.

My sub system will be globally mono, yet w/individual control over each element.


Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

If you have any desire to do just modal analysis and PEQ, download free RoomEQWizard and use a $69 ART Dual USB Preamp from B&HPhoto, plus a calibrated Dayton EMM-6 mic from Cross Spectrum for $70 and a mic cable, an RCA recvr input cable , a short 2' TRS male to XLR male loopback cable, and an XLR to RCA adapter.
And absolutely, if you intend to anything more than modal analysis and PEQ, download RoomEQWizard.
RoomEQWizard, and if you desire a more comprehensive package, ARTA for 79Euros/~$105USD, both provide a more comprehensive set of time domain tools for the analysis and treatment of specular direct and indirect 'reflections' above ~250 Hz.
Modal analysis by use of waterfall/cumulative spectral decay plots and mapping a region by the playing of tones is a very simple and straightforward procedure. Likewise, if you desire to use PEQ (parametric EQ) below 100 Hz to augment placement and treatment, REW will generate the filters.
Above the modal frequencies you will need the use of additional time domain tools, principally the envelope time curve (ETC).

Great advice for sure, I'm covered.

Upon getting my new mains (awaiting delivery) and subsequent set up etc, I'll be sharing my new optimization results, including ETC. It's likely I'll have issues to be sorted out, at that time I may hit you up with more specific questions.

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by aazeez1975 View Post

As I said you can achieve everything with digital crossovers and EQ, I was not talking about the possibility/capability to achieve result. I was talking about the hassle of getting there, and you end up with rack full of equipment and measurement tools. I achieved the same result with placing the sub and playing with level and crossover point as I did with rack full of equipment. Obviously, if you are geeking out then its different.

smile.gif

It's different, I'm geeking out,....obviously.

A rack full of equipment and measuring tools? .... Really not that bad. The single rack space 4x8 processor, a very simple and intuitive GUI, guided by some measurements. Rinse/repeat.


Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

If you don't have amplification chosen I would get some amps with DSP built in. I just got rid of my EP2500 and MiniDSP to use a Behringer iNuke 3000. Much tidier. Almost broken even on the deal to:)

I'm covered wrt amplification. Besides, for my needs, that's not the point in the chain whereby I want the signal shaping/manipulation to take place. Amplifier DSP would be great if the entire system had network control, like done in live performance audio, but not where I want it.

I hope you like the iINuke, I've got two EP4000's, and have had good luck with them. They're great as long as you stay away from their limits. They've exhibited strange behavior like they lose all damping factor and subsequent cone control upon encountering clipping. I've read others since that have had similar scenarios, and beliefs. All said they're a tremendous value, and avoiding clipping is good advice regardless of amplifier.

But if your sub system was entirely handled by one amplifier, on-board DSP makes sense.


Thanks

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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Old 06-21-2012, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Desertdome,
I do appreciate the comprehensive reply, I'm sure your system and the JRiver aspect is great. The first time I saw you refer to JRiver/those products, I went and looked around and checked out what I could. Do you have a product link? I don't like the structure of the website I found,..but perhaps that's just me.
Thanks
I need to do a better job of using the new forum thread tools to keep track of threads I've posted in. I forgot to followup. The only link is JRiver.com, but if you click Support you can go to their wiki. However, they need to do a better job of explaining all their features and most of this stuff isn't listed anywhere.
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I need to do a better job of using the new forum thread tools to keep track of threads I've posted in. I forgot to followup. The only link is JRiver.com, but if you click Support you can go to their wiki. However, they need to do a better job of explaining all their features and most of this stuff isn't listed anywhere.

Yeah well some of these AVS changes,..I sure don't care for, but I'm getting used to them.

I appreciate your JRiver stuff and you sharing your positive experience toward them. Clearly, it's powerful array of tools (I'm guessing) but I'm not feelin' it myself. I just can't get a decent look at what, how etc, what they offer. Like many of us here, I'm all over the web wrt audio related items a significant amount of time daily, ...however their web profile/design needs some serious work, actually it's pathetically bad for introducing a prospective customer into their fold in my opinion. Maybe it's me...either way.

Simplifies my life however, moving on. Desertdome, no disrespect toward you, and I do appreciate your posts.


Thanks

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:15 PM
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Their IOS app stopped working as well. At least the IPad version did.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:47 PM
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I hate the App, i just use the full page version which is slower but it works ok
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Old 06-24-2012, 09:24 AM
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Can someone please explain to me what exactly the J-River Media Center is and what Is its purpose? Is it an audio and video streaming devise?
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Can someone please explain to me what exactly the J-River Media Center is and what Is its purpose? Is it an audio and video streaming devise?

Desertdome speaks highly of it,.. however try learning about it, .. surfing around a bit etc..., you may quickly see what I'm referring to. It's not easy getting a handle on what it entails. Their web information sucks.

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Old 06-26-2012, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I traveled to Sweetwater this past weekend to spend some time checking out audio gear etc. Once a year they put on GearFest, whereby mfr reps and sales staff display their wares and have some fun.

I really wanted to check out loudspeaker management gear etc., but I didn't see any being displayed. Every other conceivable item they carry, yes,....but not DSP speaker management. I did have some fun discussing various pieces of gear, with some nicely knowledgeable reps. There was one exception however. A young man wanted me to hear these Pelonis monitors. I explained the noise floor wasn't conducive to listening,...he pointed out I'd just listened to these ATC 3 ways (very sweet BTW). So I said fine, what you got?

He began playback over these Pelonis coaxial 3 ways. Clearly a Tannoy based, small 4" coax mated to a vented, high excursion 8" LF section. Well the song began with murky deep tones, pretty cool really. Then the full bandwidth keys/synth music began. Whoa,...it was out of phase. I motioned for him to stop, I explained I think the L&R coax is out of phase with one-another. This young man says to me "yeah, i think so too". confused.gif What does that even mean? A little added context, this is day two, and the last day of the trade show, toward the end of the day. Has it been wired this way the entire time? I can see how it happened, the loudspeaker has passive/high level inputs from a dedicated amplifier unit. Damn,...sloppy.

Pelonis makes very nice, very high end large studio monitors. I wasn't aware they made smaller pieces. It's a shame because I'd just had a wonderful conversation with a gentlemen who was ATC's US importer. He set up a demo of ATC's brand new SCM25A, a wonderful little sweet 3 way that I'd really like to hear more of. Not anything what I need for HT, but a pair for desktop monitoring would be sweet. We've all seen many of the 3" soft dome mids around,..well these are the real ones everyone mimics. These are powerfully sweet mid/nearfields,...anyone gets the chance to check these out, don't hesitate.

Sweetwater gave away a lot of gear, sold tons at dirt cheap prices, and there was a cool flea market area. I was disappointed in the acoustics seminar/presentation I attended,...entry level stuff mostly. Even when I attempted to delve deeper into some topics with the presenter, acoustician Gavin Haverstick, he clearly wanted to keep it shallow. I understand..., that was his primary audience.

Bottom line, no DSP loudspeaker management tools displayed.



Thanks

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Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:52 AM
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Hey FOH... any updates you would like to share with us?

Cheers,
-- Bill --
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