Home theater protection for blackouts - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 79 Old 07-01-2012, 06:18 PM
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Look over the forum. Plenty of examples, that people have lost equipment that was hooked up via HDMI, and there had been a lightening strike nearby.

I would imagine most of those devices were also connected to a power outlet. How was the determination made that the surge traversed HDMI only?
Already stated how it happens. Surge comes in through poorly grounded coax connection, travels to the catv set top or dvr, then down through the hdmi along the cable to every device you are connected to, downstream of the what is connected via coax.

Maybe you should read more, than make assumptions that this does not happen to anyone, when it is posted on here and other forums pretty much a once week occurrence, in that someone has lost gear, because of a lightening strike, or disconnected Neutral, that allowed over-voltage to travel through the lines into the house.
gregzoll is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 79 Old 07-01-2012, 06:24 PM
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Look over the forum. Plenty of examples, that people have lost equipment that was hooked up via HDMI, and there had been a lightening strike nearby.
Nothing substantive, as expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I would imagine most of those devices were also connected to a power outlet. How was the determination made that the surge traversed HDMI only?
Heaven forbid that logic get in the way of a vaguely referenced anecdote. GZ will be able to rest comfortably when the next thunderstorm passes, having removed all the HDMI cables from his system, and leaving it plugged into the mains.
As I stated to the other kid, this happens on a regular occurrence, even if stuff is connected to a surge protector, it will not stop a over voltage from a lightening strike in frying everything downstream. Maybe you and the other kid should learn how to understand how stuff like this happens, then make assumptions that it doesn't, because it has not happened to you or them.

Every week, someone posts on some forum that their gear got fried, and wonder if maybe it had to do with that poorly or not grounded coax connection coming into the structure that they are in. I have seen gear that was properly protected get fried, and everything connected to it get turned into a toasted piece of gear. And it was even grounded, but direct lightening strikes and unhooked or disconnected neutrals, or even worse, tree branch dropping across two phases, or dropping a high voltage phase on to a 120volt phase going into homes. Again, there is no protection out there, that will protect from anything, regardless what people think.

All surge protectors are, are a ease of mind, and like insurance for your health, vehicle or home. You know that it is nice to have, but you always know that it will not stand up to a direct lightening strike, or worse case, a high voltage line on a power pole, dropping across the 120volt going into your home.
gregzoll is offline  
post #63 of 79 Old 07-01-2012, 06:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bfreedma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 9 iron from Philly
Posts: 1,952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Look over the forum. Plenty of examples, that people have lost equipment that was hooked up via HDMI, and there had been a lightening strike nearby.

I would imagine most of those devices were also connected to a power outlet. How was the determination made that the surge traversed HDMI only?
Already stated how it happens. Surge comes in through poorly grounded coax connection, travels to the catv set top or dvr, then down through the hdmi along the cable to every device you are connected to, downstream of the what is connected via coax.

Maybe you should read more, than make assumptions that this does not happen to anyone, when it is posted on here and other forums pretty much a once week occurrence, in that someone has lost gear, because of a lightening strike, or disconnected Neutral, that allowed over-voltage to travel through the lines into the house.


I read these forums regularly and have yet to see a single case where anyone has verified that they lost gear via the coax/hdmi model you describe. Link some examples where this has been proven if I've missed them.

Could it happen in theory? Perhaps, but extraordinarily rare at best when compared to damage that comes via the power connector.
bfreedma is offline  
post #64 of 79 Old 07-01-2012, 07:19 PM
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Link what. Something that you are too lazy to go find out, or research. Again, the truth is, people have lost gear due to lightening strikes, etc. and weekly you will see someone posting on either this site, or some other, that they lost gear, and when you start asking questions, you find out the common link was a hdmi cable or coax connected to their set top or dvr, that allowed the surge to flow to every piece of equipment connected downstream, blowing it to nothing more than a door stop.

This is not something that someone or myself just woke up this morning and said "Hey, we are going to make people believe some kind of FUD, because this is the Internet.". If you do not want to believe it, that is your choice, but personally, I have seen first hand what happens, when lightening strikes, or a high voltage line of 720volts or greater, drops across the 120volt line going to a home or business. Or worst yet, when the Neutral drops, and all that is going to the home is two 120volt lines, which in turn allow for a high volt on one of the legs, in turn causing a mess of problems, all over the board.

Also to feed your thoughts, that $2,000 so called surge protector, is no better than that $35 or $50 surge protector that most people use. Same goes for UPS systems.
gregzoll is offline  
post #65 of 79 Old 07-01-2012, 07:24 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
ccotenj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the toxic waste dumps of new jersey
Posts: 21,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Look over the forum. Plenty of examples, that people have lost equipment that was hooked up via HDMI, and there had been a lightening strike nearby.
Nothing substantive, as expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I would imagine most of those devices were also connected to a power outlet. How was the determination made that the surge traversed HDMI only?
Heaven forbid that logic get in the way of a vaguely referenced anecdote. GZ will be able to rest comfortably when the next thunderstorm passes, having removed all the HDMI cables from his system, and leaving it plugged into the mains.
As I stated to the other kid this happens on a regular occurrence, even if stuff is connected to a surge protector, it will not stop a over voltage from a lightening strike in frying everything downstream. Maybe you and the other kid should learn how to understand how stuff like this happens, then make assumptions that it doesn't, because it has not happened to you or them.

Every week, someone posts on some forum that their gear got fried, and wonder if maybe it had to do with that poorly or not grounded coax connection coming into the structure that they are in. I have seen gear that was properly protected get fried, and everything connected to it get turned into a toasted piece of gear. And it was even grounded, but direct lightening strikes and unhooked or disconnected neutrals, or even worse, tree branch dropping across two phases, or dropping a high voltage phase on to a 120volt phase going into homes. Again, there is no protection out there, that will protect from anything, regardless what people think.

All surge protectors are, are a ease of mind, and like insurance for your health, vehicle or home. You know that it is nice to have, but you always know that it will not stand up to a direct lightening strike, or worse case, a high voltage line on a power pole, dropping across the 120volt going into your home.

@bfreedma... darn, you look awfully old for your age... rolleyes.gifwink.gif

as usual, when proof cannot be provided, other means are resorted to...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ccotenj is offline  
post #66 of 79 Old 07-01-2012, 08:33 PM
Senior Member
 
GlassWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 347
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Nothing substantive, as expected.
Heaven forbid that logic get in the way of a vaguely referenced anecdote. GZ will be able to rest comfortably when the next thunderstorm passes, having removed all the HDMI cables from his system, and leaving it plugged into the mains.

I have actually seen a number of cases of signal path damage (HDMI) due to things like static electricity discharge. The evidence was shown when looking at the PC boards for the HDMI/video control section of the hardware when I had it on the test bench. Microscopic pitting is indicative of static discharge. The units were connected to power conditioners to prevent such damage via the Mains power, and suck a discharge would not have damaged the HDMI controller directly. YMMV

-GlassWolf

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

GlassWolf is offline  
post #67 of 79 Old 07-02-2012, 05:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bfreedma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 9 iron from Philly
Posts: 1,952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Link what. Something that you are too lazy to go find out, or research. Again, the truth is, people have lost gear due to lightening strikes, etc. and weekly you will see someone posting on either this site, or some other, that they lost gear, and when you start asking questions, you find out the common link was a hdmi cable or coax connected to their set top or dvr, that allowed the surge to flow to every piece of equipment connected downstream, blowing it to nothing more than a door stop.
This is not something that someone or myself just woke up this morning and said "Hey, we are going to make people believe some kind of FUD, because this is the Internet.". If you do not want to believe it, that is your choice, but personally, I have seen first hand what happens, when lightening strikes, or a high voltage line of 720volts or greater, drops across the 120volt line going to a home or business. Or worst yet, when the Neutral drops, and all that is going to the home is two 120volt lines, which in turn allow for a high volt on one of the legs, in turn causing a mess of problems, all over the board.
Also to feed your thoughts, that $2,000 so called surge protector, is no better than that $35 or $50 surge protector that most people use. Same goes for UPS systems.

Yes, people lose gear to lightening strikes. What I asked for was proof that the damage was caused by the surge passing through the HDMI cable rather than via the power cable. Let me try again:

Your "proof" that this occurs is that the damaged devices are connected with hdmi/coax/whatever. As I stated in the last post, it's highly likely these devices were also connected to the a power circuit. Please provide some kind of evidence that the damage from these surges was done through the hdmi/coax/whatever connections and not the AC power.

As for the research responsibilities, it's your claim that the evidence is out there, so your burden to produce it.

Now you want to change the discussion to the value of various surge devices in general. I wonder why? rolleyes.gif
bfreedma is offline  
post #68 of 79 Old 07-02-2012, 05:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bfreedma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 9 iron from Philly
Posts: 1,952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@bfreedma... darn, you look awfully old for your age... rolleyes.gifwink.gif
as usual, when proof cannot be provided, other means are resorted to...

Yeah, I got hit by a lightening strike when holding the open end of an hdmi cable connected to my AVR - it's a terrible thing. Puts years on you in a second tongue.gif
bfreedma is offline  
post #69 of 79 Old 07-02-2012, 09:10 AM
Senior Member
 
GlassWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 347
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I've seen electricity travel through a lot of things, like phone and network cords, when every piece of equipment was on some form of power conditioning, surge supressing protection except for that one particular signal path. (Heck I lost an entire Atari system that way once.. through the phone line, across the external modem, took out the floppy external drives, the external HDD, the computer, MI/O controller unit, all of it..)
That said, some products, like DirecTV DVRs are recommended by the company providing the unit, that you not use the unit plugged into anything but a direct wall outlet. If one device is outside the surge protection circuit, and it is hit via the Mains power, the surge can still pass through the signal level cables, and damage equipment beyond that one unit. I have witnessed this.

-GlassWolf

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

GlassWolf is offline  
post #70 of 79 Old 07-02-2012, 10:12 AM
Newbie
 
lukeburroughs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If anything, Surge protection is a must. Don't disregard that! I've made it habit to never hook up any equipment without it being surge protected. Had way too many hiccups in the past-its made me paranoid.
lukeburroughs is offline  
post #71 of 79 Old 07-02-2012, 10:39 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,381
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 747 Post(s)
Liked: 1161
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeburroughs View Post

If anything, Surge protection is a must.

Really?
Quote:
Don't disregard that!


True only if you have some very special circumstances.
Quote:
I've made it habit to never hook up any equipment without it being surge protected.

I've made it a habit to avoid surge protectors.
Quote:
Had way too many hiccups in the past-its made me paranoid.

Surge protectors don't protect against hiccups, If anything youu need a UPS for that!
arnyk is offline  
post #72 of 79 Old 07-02-2012, 05:27 PM
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Now not knowing how many have gotten this little gem, but here is for those doubters or should say, wanting to protect hdmi connected equipment http://www.etherealhometheater.com/hdmi-solutions/solutions/hdmitm-surge-protector.html And oh, something else to back up for those doubters that do not think that hdmi ports can be fried http://www.hdcabling.co.za/Best_Practises_HDMI_Installation_Guidelines_and_Recommendations.php Also plenty of posts regarding hdmi ports fried from lightening strikes and other surges, that were posted on this site http://www.avsforum.com/search.php?search=hdmi+port+dead
gregzoll is offline  
post #73 of 79 Old 07-02-2012, 05:30 PM
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeburroughs View Post

If anything, Surge protection is a must.

Really?
Quote:
Surge protectors don't protect against hiccups, If anything youu need a UPS for that!
A UPS will not protect from surges, and actually are nothing more than a band-aid. No need for them on av gear. As for on servers, if you want a UPS, use one that can tell the computer to start a shutdown process, by stopping any file writing, once it starts to get to the point, that the battery falls below 20%.
gregzoll is offline  
post #74 of 79 Old 07-02-2012, 06:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Now not knowing how many have gotten this little gem...
Devices like that have been discussed in these forums before. They do not provide effective surge protection for the HDMI circuits. They are based on a chip designed to protect HDMI circuits against static electricity (many CE products use the same chip, or something similar, already). There is a big difference in the amount of energy available between a static charge in your house and a damaging surge. The problem with protecting HDMI circuits against surges is that any practical device will introduce enough capacitance to affect the proper operation of the TMDS lines.
Colm is offline  
post #75 of 79 Old 07-02-2012, 06:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeburroughs View Post

If anything, Surge protection is a must.
Depends on where you live. The need for surge protection is highly over-hyped. At least some of what is reported as surge damage by lay people is due to something else, like a sustained over voltage situation (if a reasonably sized MOV based surge protective device failed in the process, that is the likely case). And most CE devices are inherently immune to surges up to 600V or more. Maximum energy you are likely ever to see with 30' or more of wiring between the device and the service entrance is 90J or so.

That said, I have a whole-house surge protective system at the service entrance of my house.
Colm is offline  
post #76 of 79 Old 07-03-2012, 05:27 AM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Nothing substantive, as expected.
Heaven forbid that logic get in the way of a vaguely referenced anecdote. GZ will be able to rest comfortably when the next thunderstorm passes, having removed all the HDMI cables from his system, and leaving it plugged into the mains.

I have had to replace network cards (remember when they were add in devices to computers?) because a lightning strike traveled up the power line and into the switch, then out the first 8 ports of the 24 port switch and fried the network card of each PC on these 8 ports. These PCs were fine except the network card.

HDMI is just another copper wire - electricity does not care if the copper wire is used for audio, video, or power. HDMI appears to be a very fragile technology, so I would not be surprised if a power surge would damage HDMI components. That said, it is far less common than damage due to the lightning travelling through the power lines. Depends on where you live, really, and how likely lightning is to strike very close to your home.
cybrsage is offline  
post #77 of 79 Old 07-03-2012, 05:52 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,381
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 747 Post(s)
Liked: 1161
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I have had to replace network cards (remember when they were add in devices to computers?) because a lightning strike traveled up the power line and into the switch, then out the first 8 ports of the 24 port switch and fried the network card of each PC on these 8 ports. These PCs were fine except the network card.
HDMI is just another copper wire - electricity does not care if the copper wire is used for audio, video, or power. HDMI appears to be a very fragile technology, so I would not be surprised if a power surge would damage HDMI components. That said, it is far less common than damage due to the lightning travelling through the power lines. Depends on where you live, really, and how likely lightning is to strike very close to your home.

More to the point, HDMI is just another network with some differences. These days it even includes a network!

Unlike 100BTX, etc, there are usually no transformers in the A/V segment of a HDMI link, so you lose about 3 KV or so of common mode voltage resistance. So, if a strike takes out 100BTX equipment, the HDMI equipment under a similar assault would already be gone.
arnyk is offline  
post #78 of 79 Old 07-03-2012, 08:32 AM
Senior Member
 
GlassWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 347
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

A UPS will not protect from surges, and actually are nothing more than a band-aid. No need for them on av gear. As for on servers, if you want a UPS, use one that can tell the computer to start a shutdown process, by stopping any file writing, once it starts to get to the point, that the battery falls below 20%.

I don't think I've ever seen a UPS on the market of any decent quality that was not also a power conditioner and surge suppressor. A UPS is very helpful for an AV system if you have devices like a DVR (ie, DirecTV) that takes 10 minutes to reboot from power failure. Having the UPS for that device alone can save you missing entire shows being recorded due to a momentary loss of power.

-GlassWolf

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

GlassWolf is offline  
post #79 of 79 Old 07-03-2012, 02:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassWolf View Post

I don't think I've ever seen a UPS on the market of any decent quality that was not also a power conditioner and surge suppressor.
I think one could agrue about the effectiveness of a UPS per se as a power conditioner, but every UPS I have seen has MOV surge protection. It is there to protect the UPS itself.
Colm is offline  
Reply Audio theory, Setup and Chat

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off