Need Help - XT32 & DefTech Bipolar Towers - AVS Forum
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys, for some reason I have a bad feeling that Audyssey is not calibrating my front towers correctly. I have Defnitive Bipolars,... the small ones 8020 or 8040's can't remember. I have each sub rca output hooked up to each tower's sub input. But from what I've read the bipolar towers are just a standalone deal and they have Xovers inside that handle it. EQ is telling me to set my front towers at 150hz. That's insane. How should I be setting up these BP towers with XT 32?

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Old 06-19-2012, 11:56 AM
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A 150Hz crossover is reasonable for 3.5" speakers.

Since the woofer (subwoofer is a misnomer for an 8" speaker) is side-firing, the speaker needs to be close to the wall behind it in order for a significant amount of its bass frequencies to be reflected toward the listening position. I suspect that the speakers may be too far from the wall, so Audyssey is not hearing the low frequencies well and thus is detecting a big dip in volume somewhat below 150Hz. As a result, that's where it's setting the crossover frequency.

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Old 06-19-2012, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Speakers are about 1.5' from the wall or so. Slightly angled in toward the listening seats. Definitive's website says if I run the LFE option I should manually set the setting to "large" or "full range". Funny thing is my Mirage OS3 surrounds get set to 100Hz. I guess I should get bigger towers lol.

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Old 06-19-2012, 01:16 PM
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From your description, the speakers are positioned appropriately. You might try turning them so they point directly toward the primary listening position, just to see if that helps.

I'm assuming you're following the instructions at the beginning of the Audyssey thread at http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1
There are a few conditions which affect measurements which aren't entirely obvious.

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Old 06-19-2012, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Everything is setup correctly, mic positions, etc. Towers are angled inward toward position 1. Uh, I'm getting frustrated b/c it doesn't sound all that great to me. For the money I spent wish I kept my 608 Onkyo.

63" Samsung Plasma, Onkyo TX-NR5009, Deftech BP-8020 Super Towers, Deftech 8040 Center, Mirage OS3 Surrounds, HSU VTF2-MK4 Sub, PS3 & HD DVR box.

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Old 06-19-2012, 10:15 PM
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What AVR are you using? I can't imagine XT32 making it sound worse. There are some very helpful owner's threads for each respective AVR.

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Old 06-20-2012, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Onkyo TX-NR5009. I'm going to try and run the non XT32 Audyssey tonight see what that sounds like.


I also am not 100% sure how using front channel and LFE into one sub works. I the following setup options for me.

1- Set my front tower EQ to 80hz. Set the LFE EQ to 80. That way the powered sub is not getting overlap from two inputs; speaker & LFE.

2- Set my Front tower EQ to 120hz. Set the LFE eq to 120. Same deal as above, you don't have two inputs fighting for the same sub at the same time.

3- Set my front towers to 80hz and the LFE EQ to 120. between 80 ->120 the front channel and LFE will be both using the same sub at the same time.

4- Set my front towers to full range and the LFE to 120.

5- Set my front tower to full range, and go out and get a separate actual powered sub.
5a- Ditto as above but run two powered separate subs.

6- Turn the subs option off, run the front towers in full range. As mentioned on Deftech's page.

So there you (I) have it. I have 6 options for setup. On the good note, my Mirage OS3 surrounds sound awsome with the 5009. Much improvement on the surround speakers.
Me personally I like the sound of options 2 & 5/5a. Gives me control of the bass, b/c I run the center and sub(s) 2-3db hot.

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Old 06-20-2012, 07:35 AM
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FL335i- your problem is that you have the built in subwoofers connected to the receivers sub inputs, thus making them the same as a stand alone outboard sub(s). With that being said, if you want to increase the range of your main speakers, then disconnect the RCA cables from the sub outputs on the towers, as well as the input on the receiver, then just use regular ole speaker wire to connect the towers to the receiver. By using speaker cable only, you are then running the towers as full range towers, rather then using towers for the mids & tweets with the built in sub woofer acting as a stand alone devise. Trust me on this as most of us who own Definitive Technology towers do it this way.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Marty, Thanks for the input. These Deftech are driving me nuts, but I know they can sound good. So run my BP towers as full range stand alone towers. Turn the sub option off. Run XT32 again. Where should I set the tower's amp volume to? 50%? How do I add bass? turn the amps up after XT32? Guessing if I want more bass, get a stand alone deidcated powered sub right? Thanks for the input.

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Old 06-20-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FL335i View Post

Marty, Thanks for the input. These Deftech are driving me nuts, but I know they can sound good. So run my BP towers as full range stand alone towers. Turn the sub option off. Run XT32 again. Where should I set the tower's amp volume to? 50%? How do I add bass? turn the amps up after XT32? Guessing if I want more bass, get a stand alone deidcated powered sub right? Thanks for the input.
Hello FL, Marty's got the problem dialed in. Run the speakers as full range, no sub, with speaker wire (good quality wire if possible). We suggest starting with the 8040's sub level control at 50%, and go from there. You can add more or less bass to taste. One nice feature is that each speaker has a sub level control, so you can adjust the subs in the 2 speakers independently. That is very helpful in situations where, for example, one speaker is near an opening like a doorway from the living room to the dining room, while the other speaker is in the corner. They will output different levels of bass, so you can even things up nicely. Powered towers mean you don't have to have a sub, but if you want more and better bass, we make products like the SC 4000 and 6000, Reference etc. The new SC 8000 sub ships very soon by the way. Thanks for buying Definitive FL! Best, Joe
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok Update guys. I came home and put this issue to bed. I actually got my old 608 onkyo back downstairs and gave it whirl vs the 5009. Ok, maybe I adjusted to the new onkyo faster than I thought b/c going back was not good. Don't get me wrong the 608 is let's say 80%, and the new 5009 is 90%. So bang for the buck the 5009 is not the way to go, but it is slightly better in picture and sound dynamics. Both my new and old onkyo dialed in every speaker to the same Xover. 150hz for the front, 40 for the center and 100 for the mirage surrounds... When setup with the sub(s) in LFE. I guess my 8020's should of been 8040's to match the center. I did try full range briefly today and it seemed better. I guess you just use the dial on the towers to adjust the bass. Pretty straight forward. I'll get them setup for good tomorrow night in full range. Thanks for the help guys. now i'm happy with my new 5009 smile.gif Oh, FYI I'm running 12ga straned wire from MonoPrice.com. I get all my cables from them. Great price, great cables. The stores are asking for a fortune just for a 3 or 6 ft HDMI. What are they thinking.

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Old 06-21-2012, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by FL335i View Post

Marty, Thanks for the input. These Deftech are driving me nuts, but I know they can sound good. So run my BP towers as full range stand alone towers. Turn the sub option off. Run XT32 again. Where should I set the tower's amp volume to? 50%? How do I add bass? turn the amps up after XT32? Guessing if I want more bass, get a stand alone deidcated powered sub right? Thanks for the input.


No problem my friend. I am confused, are your main speakers the BP-8020's or the BP-8040's? I wasn't sure if the BP-8020's had built in subs? Either way, yes, run the towers as full range and start with the dial at half way up, or 50%, and then go from there depending on your taiste in bass. Then run XT32 and your receiver will probably set the crossover to something around 80hz. Those BP-8020's do not have very large drivers so don't expect very much in terms of bass or frequency responce. They are good, don't get me wrong, but, I personally prefer to stick with the BP-8060's or BP-8080's, or at a minimum the BP-8040's. If you want any "real" bass then you need to purchase a subwoofer. You can get a lot more bang for your buck by purchasing an internet direct subwoofer from someone such as HSU or SVS, or Elemental Designs. As far as your receiver goes, the 5009 should be a pretty dramatic step up from that 608!
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I have the BP-8020's, their smallest powered sub towers, and they say to use the BP-8040 Center channel which is non-powered. I have Mirage's large OS3-Sat's for surrounds mounted upside down at about 9' which sound great. I guess I'm expecting a lot out of the small 8020's. Time for a speaker upgrade pkg LOL. I had Beta 50 towers before with dual 8's and wife hated them, hence the no sub and two 8020's. I'd really like to demo a set of RF-7 Klipsch for the heck of it. I've never heard them before!!!! And now Worst Buy only has the Deftechs, Mirage and B&W towers to demo. And from my experience getting to properly demo a set of speakers is almost impossible. They don't have the 5009 to start off with, then who knows about the settings on those Yams and Pioneers they have setup... it's crap shoot. I need a Klipsch Reference center channel... the one thats like got like 6 mids in it. Monster. One thing the 5009 brought out was 1- picture quality. 2- my surrounds sound much better. 3- Highlights the fact my 8040 center channel is out performing my 8020 towers.

Makes you wants to bang you head against the wall and just fly the white flag and go get Sony's flagship HTiB which is DLNA capable and gets pics/vid/music off your PC and has the best sound Cnet has heard in a HTiB. LOL. Love this hobby.... and hate it.

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Old 06-21-2012, 09:10 AM
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^^^^^^
The crossover is disabled when the speakers are set to Large on the AVR. The crossover only applies to speakers set to Small. With his current set up, there's nowhere to redirect the bass below the crossover because there's no sub. Foilow Joe's advice and just run speaker wire to the towers and set the speakers to Large and sub to "NO" on the AVR. When you add a sub to the system, change the speakers to Small and cross them at 80 hz and set the sub to "YES"
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys, Fiddled with it more tonight. Hands down the best setup is running 2-channel sub, 120 on the LPF,120 on the front speakers, 80 on the center, XT32 on Movie, no re-eq, +8 on bass all around & +8 on Treble all around on the home menu. I bumped the subs and center +2db. Best sound I've been able to extract. I tried running no sub, just speaker wire going to the towers, set the fronts to full range (automatically does that when switch the sub off) and I litterally had no bass. Sounded terrible. Even after turning the amps up. Sticking with this setup. At least I have more control over the bass anyway. But seriously guys, this is the best I've ever heard using my speakers and either the 608 or 5009. I can now at least sleep easy knowing it's not getting any better unless I get new speakers. I think the key here is XT32 does wonders with two subs. Just my 2 cents. The bass is very vibrant. When I ran the towers in full range and no sub, and XT32 it sounded like my 1990's 12" Pioneer 3-way floor speakers. Loud, full but very flat and not tight. Thanks for the help everyone. smile.gif I think the ace in the hole in this situation was XT32. It's smarter than people. lol. After almost a week of trying different things I come to only within 1 or 2 adjustments of where XT32 put me when I first set it up! Lower the front towers from 150 to 120, bump the center & subs +2. Enjoy.

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Old 06-22-2012, 01:49 PM
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Guys, Fiddled with it more tonight. Hands down the best setup is running 2-channel sub, 120 on the LPF,120 on the front speakers, 80 on the center, XT32 on Movie, no re-eq, +8 on bass all around & +8 on Treble all around on the home menu. I bumped the subs and center +2db. Best sound I've been able to extract. I tried running no sub, just speaker wire going to the towers, set the fronts to full range (automatically does that when switch the sub off) and I litterally had no bass. Sounded terrible. Even after turning the amps up. Sticking with this setup. At least I have more control over the bass anyway. But seriously guys, this is the best I've ever heard using my speakers and either the 608 or 5009. I can now at least sleep easy knowing it's not getting any better unless I get new speakers. I think the key here is XT32 does wonders with two subs. Just my 2 cents. The bass is very vibrant. When I ran the towers in full range and no sub, and XT32 it sounded like my 1990's 12" Pioneer 3-way floor speakers. Loud, full but very flat and not tight. Thanks for the help everyone. smile.gif I think the ace in the hole in this situation was XT32. It's smarter than people. lol. After almost a week of trying different things I come to only within 1 or 2 adjustments of where XT32 put me when I first set it up! Lower the front towers from 150 to 120, bump the center & subs +2. Enjoy.

1. Audyssey XT32 doesn't have a "Movie" mode. Dolby PLIIX has a Movie modes. Is that what you mean?

2. The LPF of LFE only affects the LFE Channel. How can you set the LPF of the Center Channel to 80 Hz? Do you mean the crossover?

3. XT32 doesn't correct *below* the crossover it sets. Therefore, if it set the crossover to 150, and you lower the crossover, you are not getting any correction below the original crossover point. More importantly, Audyssey sets the crossover just above the -3 dB point of the speakers. It actually *measures* the in-room -3 dB point, so it may well be different than the manufacturer's specified -3 dB point. Therefore, if it found a -3 db point just below 150 Hz, you're not getting full response down to 120 Hz. This is likely why you need to run the bass at +8. I suggest you reset the crossovers to 150 and turn the bass back down.

4. I can't imagine why you need +8 on the treble. Audyssey's "target curve" has a 3 dB rolloff above 10 kHz, but +8 is way over-correcting for that. I suggest you turn down the treble, (and the bass), and try turning up the Master Volume Control. That should also help with dialogue intelligibility, and you may be able to lower the 2 dB you added to the Center Channel.

5. I assume you're running the "subwoofers" on the line level inputs. Before you run Audyssey, you want to "gain-match" the subs. The easy way to to do this is just to ensure they are both set to the same level on their amps. There is a more rigorous way to do it, which, if you're interested, you can read about here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1282064/two-subs-gain-matching-vs-level-matching

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Old 06-22-2012, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Audyssey XT32 on my Onkyo 5009 has to be set to OFF, Movie or Music. Only options for it. Gain matching the subs is done at the begining of the XT32 cal. Set sub 1 gain to 75db, then same for sub 2.

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Old 06-23-2012, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys, figured out another thing today. When I calibrate the tower subs to the 75db for the "subs" portion of XT32 when it pings the towers it sets them to 150hz. If I set the "subs" to 83db, then run the XT it pings the towers and comes back at 40hz and it lowers the sub levels to compensate. This actually worked out really well. So now I can run my towers & Center at 80hz. LPF is at 120 on the AVR. Surrounds are at 100hz as Audyssey set. Sounds incredible.


Take it to the next level, I believe I still need a separate powered sub(s) to really make the system sing in the low frequencies. The BP super towers use the built in amps to compensate for their small size vs running a full size tower like what I ran before them, Beta 50's which Audyssey always set at 40hz. Not really replace say a 12" downward firing sub in the corner of the room which can get down in the teens Hz.

So for now I'm really happy with how it's running. But I am on the market for a sub so I can let the towers run as a compact tower that gets down to 80hz and put the LPE to a actual sub that can get down real low and be tuned separately.

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