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post #1 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi guys,

Just want to get an idea from the experts in the field. To my knowledge frequency response and transient response are intrinsically tied. If you flatten the room response it should lead to a subjectively quicker sounding, more tuneful bass. If you apply parametric eq to cut several peaks that coincide with the bass notes in your music the difference in amplitude alone should affect the bass. Do you feel it sounds subjectively quicker?

There is someone who I know who claims that frequency response aberrations can't affect our perception of bass speed and/or timing. I don't agree with this whatsoever based on my own observations. What are your thoughts?
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post #2 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Hi guys,
Just want to get an idea from the experts in the field. To my knowledge frequency response and transient response are intrinsically tied. If you flatten the room response it should lead to a subjectively quicker sounding, more tuneful bass. If you apply parametric eq to cut several peaks that coincide with the bass notes in your music the difference in amplitude alone should affect the bass. Do you feel it sounds subjectively quicker?

Stands to reason that if you reduce the power you put into a strong room resonance that goes boom in the night, that transient response and the perception of well-controlled bass will improve. Experience has taught me that if you bite the bullet and set up acoustic absorbers that actually address the problem at its source, the results will be even better, and you have a lot less critical adjustements that will probably change if you make any significant changes to the room or move around in the room.
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There is someone who I know who claims that frequency response aberrations can't affect our perception of bass speed and/or timing.

People say the darnedest things, don't they?
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I don't agree with this whatsoever based on my own observations. What are your thoughts?

Using electronics to tame room problems can actually sometimes help, but if you want the best results choke them off at the source, which is usually a wall.
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post #3 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 06:21 AM
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Main bass problems are related to underdamped room modes. They perceived as "slow fat" bass. The best solution is to install absorbers, you can play with electronic too - use parametric equalizer as notch filter for most strong room modes. Location of speakers and listener is important too. For the best result you need to combine all measures.
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post #4 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 10:38 AM
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In my opinion, the key to subjective bass "speed" is a multi-faceted issue spanning both time and frequency domain.

To answer your specific question, yes, a reasonable octave to octave balance of energy allows for the best subjective result. More to the point however, focusing on the time domain. A well treated room, yielding a properly damped response below the transition frequency, helps significantly toward "speed" and well delineated bass detail. Also, a solid effort to total time coherence, top to bottom, between the subwoofer system and the mains also helps toward this goal. Additionally, striving for no temperature modulation of the response (thermal compression), should help facilitate this goal as well.



Well damped decay characteristics
Phase coherency (sub to sub, and sub system to mains)
Balanced freq response
Dynamic linearity /Lack of compression

*Also, employing ample units to achieve needed linearity should be a given



A similar topic was touched upon recently at Mark Seaton's forum recently. About mid-page @ post 129 is my response. Mark was kind enough to add the octave to octave balance and dynamic linearity.

More to your point, something I'm not all too familiar with is masking effects of excessive LF/ULF. I've seen it discussed, etc., something I'd like to learn more of.

Thanks and best of luck.

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post #5 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

To my knowledge frequency response and transient response are intrinsically tied. If you flatten the room response it should lead to a subjectively quicker sounding, more tuneful bass.

The term "fast bass" is an oxymoron. biggrin.gif But I will point out something that few people consider: Just as untamed room resonances cause bass notes to decay over time rather than cease when the source signal stops, the same property also causes the levels to swell over the same amount of time. The good news is that bass traps reduce both the swell and decay times.

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post #6 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 11:31 AM
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Additional good news is that electronic eq does both as well. Even better news is that putting all tools to use, including number and locations of subs, eq, and absorbers, you van make a tremdous perceptual improvement.

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post #7 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hey Bigus! Long time no see. biggrin.gif I haven't seen you posting around here in years.
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post #8 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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First, thank you all for your contributions. I'm fully aware that ones perception of bass "speed" is affected by the time domain, but I am talking strictly in the frequency response domain - would flattening the response improve bass articulation which is another way of saying the bass sounds more "on time" or "quicker"? There is no such thing as "fast bass" as it's a misnomer, but there is the subjective qualities that give that impression. Perhaps bass articulation would be a better term to use.

If I move my subwoofer or speakers around the room the frequency response will be altered but what I am getting at or rather what I'm asking is whether frequency domain issues on their own (even it's amplitude only) would affect ones perception. I would say yes, but would you guys all agree or disagree? If one can apply EQ to make a speaker sound "bloated" or "slow" then what is really happening is you're creating a hump over a particular frequency range. If that's the case then you can do the opposite, I'd imagine. Just need to bounce these ideas off you guys. wink.gif
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post #9 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by FOH 
To answer your specific question, yes, a reasonable octave to octave balance of energy allows for the best subjective result.

Reasonable octave to octave balance, you mean a flat frequency response? smile.gif
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post #10 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

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Originally Posted by FOH 
To answer your specific question, yes, a reasonable octave to octave balance of energy allows for the best subjective result.
Reasonable octave to octave balance, you mean a flat frequency response? smile.gif

Ethan may be able to elaborate, as I said I don't know a great deal with regard to masking etc. However, I didn't mean flat, just within reason.

I know from mixing live that if one element on stage dominates spectrally, then articulation suffers. The mechanism of action inside my head is what I know little about. Each element must be unique, and when multiple elements onstage aren't differentiated from one another in the audible mix, then the presentation suffers. EQ aids in this regard, helping delineation of each individual mix element that's spectrally similar. So, it's not much of a stretch to think an over-bearingly imbalanced mix at home would mask as well. ..... Thoughts anyone?

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post #11 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks FOH! Ethan, what say you? wink.gif Does frequency response have any influence at all on these subjective qualities or is it mainly time domain?
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post #12 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Thanks FOH! Ethan, what say you? wink.gif Does frequency response have any influence at all on these subjective qualities or is it mainly time domain?

I believe that it has already been said that frequency response and time domain response are coupled and often define each other. Traditional measurement techniques (say 50-60 years ago) tended to make them appear to be separate, but more modern measurement techniques (now perhaps 30 years old), put them back together.
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post #13 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

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Originally Posted by FOH 
To answer your specific question, yes, a reasonable octave to octave balance of energy allows for the best subjective result.
Reasonable octave to octave balance, you mean a flat frequency response? smile.gif

Yes.
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post #14 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 06:01 AM
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The term "fast bass" is an oxymoron.

I'm not sure I agree. Any speaker which requires an energy storage mechanism and tuning to support the frequency response flatness comes to mind. Worst case for me would be one of those one note boxes vs a well damped infinite baffle.

What really shocked me years ago was the group delay I heard on bass drum when I had my 4 khorns setup in a small nightclub. The bass cabs were on the other side of a half wall from me and my turntables, but the actual bass drum beat would not come past the wall until a significant time delay had occurred. I was using only the cue headphone on my right ear, and noticed that every mix was double beating, but when I put the program phone on my left ear, mixes were temporally accurate. By comparing program in phones to program over system, I found that there was about a 100 millisecond delay at the half wall, and by moving my head 6 inches to either side of the half wall, I could repeatedly hear/remove the delay. Weirdest thing. I fault the characteristic impedance of the room vs that of the constriction of the doorway.

I'd expect this exact same effect to occur at a reflex port as well, but wonder if anybody has actually measured this.

For what I'd call fast bass, I'd go with horns..not tapped horns though..

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post #15 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk 
I believe that it has already been said that frequency response and time domain response are coupled and often define each other. Traditional measurement techniques (say 50-60 years ago) tended to make them appear to be separate, but more modern measurement techniques (now perhaps 30 years old), put them back together.

Do you know if there is any literature that expands on this? On Audioholics the guys are telling me that frequency response has little to do with the subjective qualities of bass "speed". It has more to do with room resonances and system Q.
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post #16 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Ethan, what say you? wink.gif Does frequency response have any influence at all on these subjective qualities or is it mainly time domain?

Yes, a large boost / emphasis at very low bass frequencies will drown out the higher bass and lower mids, which harms overall clarity of bass instruments. I've heard bass "tighten up" considerably when the muddy stuff at very low frequencies is reduced. This is a common technique used by mix engineers, to clean out low end mud that doesn't contribute to the sound of a given track. That makes the entire mix sound clearer. But this is mainly psychoacoustic, due to masking.

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post #17 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Any speaker which requires an energy storage mechanism and tuning to support the frequency response flatness comes to mind.

Sure, speakers and crossovers can add delays. I was mostly taking aim at 'phooles who misuse the term because they don't understand the basics. biggrin.gif

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post #18 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

First, thank you all for your contributions. I'm fully aware that ones perception of bass "speed" is affected by the time domain, but I am talking strictly in the frequency response domain - would flattening the response improve bass articulation which is another way of saying the bass sounds more "on time" or "quicker"? There is no such thing as "fast bass" as it's a misnomer, but there is the subjective qualities that give that impression. Perhaps bass articulation would be a better term to use.
If I move my subwoofer or speakers around the room the frequency response will be altered but what I am getting at or rather what I'm asking is whether frequency domain issues on their own (even it's amplitude only) would affect ones perception. I would say yes, but would you guys all agree or disagree? If one can apply EQ to make a speaker sound "bloated" or "slow" then what is really happening is you're creating a hump over a particular frequency range. If that's the case then you can do the opposite, I'd imagine. Just need to bounce these ideas off you guys. wink.gif

I think the relationship of FR and "speed" is one of those things that "depends." In the Audioholics review of the PB12NSD, they said that EQ (in part the boost to get the lower registers louder (necessary when you use a tiny box) and in part a high pass, actually caused delay. So making the sub flatter, within a given range, increased it's time domain delays: "Looking at the SB12-NSD’s response in the time domain indicates that there is some delayed energy below 35Hz. This is probably due to the DSP signal manipulation going on inside of the amplifier namely the rumble filter and boost EQ employed as sealed subwoofers usually have very uniform and clean energy decay unless there is some sort of processing of the signal involved."
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post #19 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

Sure, speakers and crossovers can add delays. I was mostly taking aim at 'phooles who misuse the term because they don't understand the basics. biggrin.gif
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I believe more than anything else, many people have different terminology for the same thing. This is the reason I would not try to characterize anybody as 'phooles..

I am not speaking per se on delays, but more, the rate at which a bass note will rise to it's amplitude. Both speakers and rooms will have a Q, and it is possible to get a flat sine response but yet not have good attacks. You attack the room Q, which is great. Others attack cabinet response..also good.

To me, the term "fast bass" means when a kick drum hits, my chest feels like a bat hit it... not a slow rise but a smack. Not gonna get that in a 4th order bandpass, even if you EQ the living daylights out of it and run in an anechoic chamber. Reflex same thing, just not as bad. Sealed also if the Q is over .7 (arbitrary on my part, that's the tightest I'd want.)

Calling the term fast bass an oxymoron certainly is incorrect in my opinion... The basic problem is what the term means, and that seems to differ.

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post #20 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 11:54 AM
 
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Sorry guys, but I fear this is another thread muddied by imprecise use of terminologies and concepts!

As Ethan aptly pointed out, "terms like "slow bass" and "fast bass" are oxymorons and meaningless.

Now, if you want to talk about subjective characteristics as 'muddy" or "boomy" bass or bass that is less distinct or .... fine.

Resonance or persistence has nothing to do with the "velocity" or "speed" of anything, and to change the velocity or rate of modulation of a frequency is to change its frequency!!!rolleyes.gif


And such resonances can occur almost anywhere in the system, from cabinet resonances, port noise, room modes, or even SBIR, seeing as what is being referenced is a difference between various 'sources' and configurations.

And by properly addressing modal peaks that tend to overly accentuate frequencies can indeed lead to the subjective sense of 'tightening' and increasing the definition of the perceived bass and reducing what is commonly referred to as "boomy" or "muddy" sensation. But this has nothing to do with the "velocity" or "speed" of anything.

So the first thing to do is to properly identify and define what it is that one is actually trying to address.

And as far as a relationship between such amorphous assertions as: "that frequency response aberrations can't affect our perception of bass speed and/or timing." one might explore the relationships of F= 1/T and the Fourier Transform where in the frequency domain you have the coincident response and the quadrature response that provide information with respect to magnitude and phase. And the rate of change of phase (first derivative) is group delay.
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post #21 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dragonfyr View Post

Sorry guys, but I fear this is another thread muddied by imprecise use of terminologies and concepts!
As Ethan aptly pointed out, "terms like "slow bass" and "fast bass" are oxymorons and meaningless.
I disagree.
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Resonance or persistence has nothing to do with the "velocity" or "speed" of anything, and to change the velocity or rate of modulation of a frequency is to change its frequency!!!rolleyes.gif
I haven't seen anybody state that or discuss that within this thread. Why have you mentioned it?
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So the first thing to do is to properly identify and define what it is that one is actually trying to address.
Agreed.

Consider a cabinet which relies on internal resonances to build it's response. Since it has a Q, the output response to a stepped sine at or near it's resonance will not be instant, but will rise with time.

Two systems with flat response, where one achieves LF amplitude by way of resonance (energy storage) will behave differently for a kick drum. I would call the non resonant system faster, the resonant slower.

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post #22 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Great thread, guys. biggrin.gif
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post #23 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by dragonfyr 
And as far as a relationship between such amorphous assertions as: "that frequency response aberrations can't affect our perception of bass speed and/or timing." one might explore the relationships of F= 1/T and the Fourier Transform where in the frequency domain you have the coincident response and the quadrature response that provide information with respect to magnitude and phase. And the rate of change of phase (first derivative) is group delay.

So in other words, the frequency response has an effect on the subjective qualities of bass "speed", snappiness etc ?
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post #24 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr 
And as far as a relationship between such amorphous assertions as: "that frequency response aberrations can't affect our perception of bass speed and/or timing." one might explore the relationships of F= 1/T and the Fourier Transform where in the frequency domain you have the coincident response and the quadrature response that provide information with respect to magnitude and phase. And the rate of change of phase (first derivative) is group delay.

So in other words, the frequency response has an effect on the subjective qualities of bass "speed", snappiness etc ?

What, pray tell, did I say that indicated the frequency response - which is simply the magnitude of the frequency over a given spectral range - in ANY way effects qualities such as " bass "speed", snappiness etc."???

Magnitude is not resonance or persistence which is measured in terns of gain 'over' time..While a local peak in the local frequency response magnitude may indeed often accompany resonance or persistence in time, there is no necessary connection or requirement that they do.

Simply restating the original amorphously stated assertion does not add any validity to the original ill-formed claim.

The magnitude of the frequency has NO effect on this. 'However, the persistence with respect to TIME of a signal at a given frequency may.

So instead of playing semantics games with adjectives that have no necessary connection to behavior, it would be more advantageous to define the physical behavior that is resulting in the perceived behavior and addressing that! And while it confuses some, measurements are useful in ascertaining correlations between actual behavior and subjective perception.

And for this one might begin with both impulse response and waterfall/cumulative spectral decays - and I might also extend that to include the use of a contact mic to also measure the specific contribution of cabinets and any secondary transmission surfaces upon which they may be setting.

In other words, barring any mechanical 'problem' with the speaker itself and the manner in which it is mounted, Ethan has already pretty well summed up the issue. Focus on examining the modal behavior.




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post #25 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfyr 
What, pray tell, did I say that indicated the frequency response - which is simply the magnitude of the frequency over a given spectral range - in ANY way effects qualities such as " bass "speed", snappiness etc."??? Magnitude is not resonance or persistence which is measured in terns of gain 'over' time..

I don't think you did, but I made an assumption over your Fourier Transform explanation. No biggie.
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Simply restating the original amorphously stated assertion does not add any validity to the original ill-formed claim.

Okay.
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The magnitude of the frequency has NO effect on this. 'However, the persistence with respect to TIME of a signal at a given frequency may.

Okay, so frequency response has nothing to do with it. If you have an uneven response with large peaks it won't affect the subjective qualities described. I must be losing my mind then. So the largest peak imaginable isn't going to have even the slightest effect, not even a shred of impact on how snappy, or articulate the bass sounds? Funny, my subwoofer sounds boomy in the corner of my room. Measurement shows a hugely elevated response, as expected. I move the subwoofer away from the corner and voila - the hump that was there no longer exists and the bass sounds "tighter". So how do you explain that? Is that all in my imagination?

Perhaps my mind anticipated a change and so I created a change. You seem to be the master on this subject, so I eagerly await your reply.
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post #26 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk 
I believe that it has already been said that frequency response and time domain response are coupled and often define each other. Traditional measurement techniques (say 50-60 years ago) tended to make them appear to be separate, but more modern measurement techniques (now perhaps 30 years old), put them back together.
Do you know if there is any literature that expands on this?

If you mean AES papers and the like, nothing comes to mind.
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On Audioholics the guys are telling me that frequency response has little to do with the subjective qualities of bass "speed". It has more to do with room resonances and system Q.

I think I'm with Ethan on this. If you take the words at face value, the phrase bass speed is like jumbo shrimp in the sense that it means something if we agree on it, but as just words it doesn't work.

Bass speed is always 1100 feet per second, more or less depending on temperature, pressure and humidity. Therefore it doesn't compute.

If someone wanted to do something crazy like use terminology that was consistent with the traditional art of audio and could be taken af face value, they would talk about bass transient response.

Now, we have a question that doesn't give one a headache just trying to understand it: Does bass transient response have more to do with frequency response or resonances?

I'm going to drop the reference to system Q because if you are familiar with with the traditional audio terminology as related to speakers, system Q can either relate to resonances or speaker directivity which are two vastly different things. In short the reference to system Q is either redundant or irrelevant! In either case clarity of communication is facilitated by dropping the reference to Q.

So now the question is: Does bass transient response have more to do with frequency response or resonances? The answer would be yes: Bass transient response has to do with both smooth frequency response and control over resonances.

Then there is a caveat. We could get extreme and look for good square wave response in the bass response, since that is a condition that relates to good transient response. This turns out to be too idealistic. Because of the nature of music which is probably best modeled as being a collection of tone bursts, good transient response for tone bursts is our most logical abstract criteria.

When I am listening to a sound system, one of my criteria is consistent level as a musician goes down the scale. I don't want notes popping in and out in that situation. That corresponds primarily to smooth frequency response.
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post #27 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 12:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dragonfyr 
What, pray tell, did I say that indicated the frequency response - which is simply the magnitude of the frequency over a given spectral range - in ANY way effects qualities such as " bass "speed", snappiness etc."??? Magnitude is not resonance or persistence which is measured in terns of gain 'over' time..

I don't think you did, but I made an assumption over your Fourier Transform explanation. No biggie.

If this is the case, you do not understand the Fourier Transform.
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Simply restating the original amorphously stated assertion does not add any validity to the original ill-formed claim.

Okay.
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The magnitude of the frequency has NO effect on this. 'However, the persistence with respect to TIME of a signal at a given frequency may.

Okay, so frequency response has nothing to do with it. If you have an uneven response with large peaks it won't affect the subjective qualities described. I must be losing my mind then. So the largest peak imaginable isn't going to have even the slightest effect, not even a shred of impact on how snappy, or articulate the bass sounds? Funny, my subwoofer sounds boomy in the corner of my room. Measurement shows a hugely elevated response, as expected. I move the subwoofer away from the corner and voila - the hump that was there no longer exists and the bass sounds "tighter". So how do you explain that? Is that all in my imagination?

Perhaps my mind anticipated a change and so I created a change.


No, what most likely happened as you continue in your originally misstated and misunderstood use of terminology, is that what is likely happening is that you effected the distribution of a LF MODAL antinode. Which is defined primarily by its resonance and persistence with respect to time.

And while it may indeed also exhibit a magnitude peak, the resonance/persistence is what creates the subjective impression of 'muddiness' or boominess' or whatever other nifty non-physics terms used as slang that you wish to employ. But the magnitude itself does not make the bass seem any more 'muddy' or 'boomy' than would increasing the gain of a properly designed subwoofer in a properly treated room.

The magnitude is a secondary issue, not the causal factor! (And I find it curious that you assert that magnitude in gain is a measure of "speed" or 'velocity'!)

So how about spending a bit more time figuring out what was ACTUALLY said, and more importantly, Meant, and then responding to that, instead of simply restating your original confused assertion and attributing your misinterpretation to things I said!
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post #28 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk 
I think I'm with Ethan on this. If you take the words at face value, the phrase bass speed is like jumbo shrimp in the sense that it means something if we agree on it, but as just words it doesn't work.

I agree, the terms make no sense. I could say that the bass sounds "tighter" vs "faster" or "boomy" vs "slow" if that helps. wink.gif
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post #29 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 01:37 PM
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I recently installed an eight 15" driver IB system in my room. I like the sound better than any of the other subs I have heard and probably would call it "fast" bass. I've been trying to quantify why it sounds different and am still doing measurements, etc. I've also looked back through measurements I've done of other sub systems and the measurements at data-bass.com. Here are some things I've noticed.

Frequency response - The frequency response of two subs is probably the easiest to match with EQ. You can match the response using close mic measurements and both subs will then have almost identical in room response at the listening position. The caveat is that when comparing different alignments one or both subs tend to give up a strength when matching responses. Also, having a flat frequency response up to 200 Hz is important to the integration with the mains. Mark Seaton (Seaton Sound) and Jeff Permanian (JTR Speakers) both mentioned this at a sub GTG last October. I have found that pulling down the inductance hump and smoothing out to 200 Hz has improved the sound quality in my sealed systems. Almost all my ported subs have had a smooth response up to 200 Hz.

System Q and Resonant Frequency - These together show how and where the driver will start to rolloff on the low end. This rolloff can be changed by EQ so I don't see these parameters as important in the overall sound of a subwoofer system. If you just listened to the native reponse they would be, but most EQ a sub to the room. It can make some different between the various alignments.

Amplfiier power - Tom Danley has mentioned that there are peak dynamics much higher in content than what normally shows in a measurement. I have found that those sub systems with the most power or efficiency to sound snappier. I think it is because of the higher dynamic peaks that are being reached. The impedance of all drivers varies with frequency so it is difficult to compare two different drivers and their power usage/requirements.

Decay time of driver - Paul Spencer discusses decay and modal ringing in his Bass Integration Guide. From my measurements, those drivers with the quickest decay sound "faster."

Decay time in room - Like Ethan mentioned, the swell and decay times in a room are both reduced by room treatments. Which sounds better, a quick decaying driver in a slow decaying room or a slow decaying driver in a quick decaying room? The first can at least be fixed with room treatments.

In summary, a "fast" subwoofer system is the combination of many factors. While frequency response changes can make the same sub system sound very different, I think it is the easiest factor to match among various sub systems. Once the frequency response is matched, there are still several factors that contribute to how a sub system sounds.
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post #30 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by dragonfyr 
And while it may indeed also exhibit a magnitude peak, the resonance/persistence is what creates the subjective impression of 'muddiness' or boominess' or whatever other nifty non-physics terms used as slang that you wish to employ. But the magnitude itself does not make the bass seem any more 'muddy' or 'boomy' than would increasing the gain of a properly designed subwoofer in a properly treated room.

Most people use nifty non-physics terms to describe subjective qualities they experience. I have to disagree with you that the magnitude of the peaks don't have any effect. Of course they have an effect. If I cut those very same peaks there is a very noticeable change in the quality of bass. Cause and effect - I altered the frequency response, it led to a change.
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So how about spending a bit more time figuring out what was ACTUALLY said, and more importantly, Meant, and then responding to that, instead of simply restating your original confused assertion and attributing your misinterpretation to things I said!

I think perhaps your attitude is in need of adjustment. I might find it easier to grasp the concept if you would have a little patience instead of making snide remarks. Instead, you except me to understand what you MEANT without me even questioning you. What compounds the matter further is that you continue to behave belligerently in almost every reply, which is very off putting. If you were the leading authority on this subject then I most certainly would sit up and take notice, but you aren't the foremost authority on this subject. Furthermore, if I misinterpreted what you said then it is not the end of the world. Goodness.. rolleyes.gif
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