Are audio companies all involved in a huge conspiracy? - Page 13 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 3048 Old 09-23-2012, 10:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by has7738 View Post

By the way, do your publishers know you engage in all this kind of childish bickering? Wouldn't they be afraid it might undermine your credibility? And theirs?
I don't think he cares. Perhaps too blinded by his own greed (profit from selling those overpriced electronics called "high-end"):
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post


I will do one better: I will use your logic. An alien designed it. He put some alien goo in the power supply caps, turning the whole thing into a flux capacitor. It is able to regenerate "gigawatts" of power as nicely documented in the movie Back to the Future.


When you play it then, it takes you back to the time the music was actually recorded and you hear the musicians live! Yes, I hear you. It doesn't have the dial like the movie did to tell it what time you to want to travel to. Well, that was a mistake in the movie. If you are an alien like the Doc was, you don't need no stinkin' dials! You just think it and the Mark Levinson knows the year, month, day and hour. You can't tell it the minute but what is a few minutes of waiting for the main event to start? As I noted, audiophiles have the alien genes in them. It allows them to have such psychic powers.


You being the lessor sentient being, not blessed with said alien genes, will be listening to the amp in the present so are not wowed by the experience. For you, the aliens invented the concept of the home theater in a box with 50 cent plastic Dixie cup drivers. The same thought pattern they implemented in you that makes you think most meats taste like chicken, causes you to think all audio equipment is the same. Don't agree? What else explains why someone would pick an alias with the word maniac in it?


All of this is POSSIBLE. Is it not? You cannot PROVE that it is not true. Can you?

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post #362 of 3048 Old 09-23-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Just because there are obvious differences, it doesn't mean they are in the direction that we think they are.

As I said, if you need a blind test to tell if speakers sound better with the tweeters connected, go for it. Your arguments are not compelling, and only show some sort of weird bias of your own. Again, you can blind test yourself by closing your eyes at that part of my Hearing is Believing video. Let us know here which you prefer: no treatment, only absorbers, or absorbers plus diffusers.
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It matters not that you pleased a meter. It matters if you please my ears.

Your ears are suspect, so I'm not interested in pleasing them. More to the point, you totally twist Sean Olive's research to suit your own strange agenda. If you actually read what Sean wrote, you'd understand that people prefer a playback that is as accurate and neutral as possible. The speakers that are closest to flat are the ones that are universally preferred. When the meters say it's good, so do the ears. It's exactly the same for room acoustics. The less colored the better. Amir, you're in the wrong business.
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You have a video for example where you talk down competing products such as polycylindrical diffusers.

Polys are not a competing product because they're always built on site. I'm not aware of any commercial poly product. But again you intentionally twist my words to create a straw man you can attack. My point in that video is to let people hear the damage caused by the focusing that occurs inside the curves, and the damage caused by comb filtering which polys do not reduce. Speaking of polys, if you can show me a photo of even one high-end professional control room that uses ploys on the rear wall instead of QRDs, I'd love to see it.
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It is just that you have acoustic beliefs that are in dispute

My expertise is disputed only by industry buffoons who don't understand the science but express strong opinions anyway.

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post #363 of 3048 Old 09-23-2012, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by has7738 View Post

OK, Amirm. I'll give this one more volley.

You do realize that Amir enjoys this, yes? The more people beat him up, the longer and more detailed his replies become. It's sad really.
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do your publishers know you engage in all this kind of childish bickering? Wouldn't they be afraid it might undermine your credibility? And theirs?

I believe the publisher will know very soon. biggrin.gif

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post #364 of 3048 Old 09-23-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

The more people beat him up, the longer and more detailed his replies become.
At least they help with insomnia.
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post #365 of 3048 Old 09-23-2012, 01:28 PM
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Interesting discussion, Ethan, good points.

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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

How would you feel about a pitch that went, "We can't give you a scientific explanation for why our cables would sound better, but lots of our customers think they do"? It's an absolutely true statement, and makes no phony claims.

Somewhat OT, but a brief anecdote;
While attending a demo of Harman's ARCOs DSP, one on one demo, just for me, the rep somewhat perplexed at one of my very valid questions, .... answered "trust me". I, one of the most mellow individuals you may encounter, was steaming under the collar. There was no one else but me, and he either couldn't, or didn't want to answer my question. But the "trust me" really bothered me. I tuned out and couldn't get past it, followed up with some subsequent questions and he again avoided them very tactfully. I, acted as if I had an appointment elsewhere, up and left.

Harman is an industry giant when it comes to R&D, maybe this guy was filling in or something, ..I don't know, still makes me wonder.

This demo, a multi mic, multi position measurment and dsp and software demo, seems fantastic. What Harman is into is typically solid. I mean this is great, empirical measurement stuff. Also, by overhearing much of the comments etc, so many attendees at Cedia don't have a clue about actual measurements, etc., sad really.

Before I left he insisted that I get a ticket to the demo he voiced and tuned across the street at the Westin. He recommended which seat to get and everything. At my appointed time I went. I left quite disappointed not knowing if the lifeless presentation, yet somewhat harsh mid-band, lame bottom end, was an effect of my experience during the verbal demo of the technology involved or what. The bottom end was most disappointing with no real extension, poor delineation, and an apparent excess of energy in the 60-80 range. This was Mark Levinson amps all around, with their double 10 three way, high-end/berilium based, compression driver mains. I was front/center, I've got photos if anyone's interested. Luckily, I experienced some of the finest audio I've ever had the pleasure of experiencing anywhere, while at Cedia. This did give some solid context for sure, but I didn't listen to the superb demos 'til after the Harman/JBL demo.

The system was way off. Maybe they didn't have enough time, and perhaps they slowly tweaked the response over time,...this was day one of the show.

I'm a fan of Harman in general. The research they performed is fantastic. In no way am I correlating Harman/JBL into the shady practices of some high end peddlers being discussed here. I've used both JBL's pro offerings, as well as their residential loudspeakers. I'm a fan, this sucked. Kevin Voecks was in the room too, surely he heard it. Peraps he was hung up on the mis-applied aspect ration problem with the opening track of the demo eek.gif Yep, stretched waaayy too wide. I digress...


Ok, back to the topic at hand, this is an interesting thread, I thought I'd throw that brief anecdote out there, ... carry on.

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post #366 of 3048 Old 09-23-2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Before I left he insisted that I get a ticket to the demo he voiced and tuned across the street at the Westin. He recommended which seat to get and everything. At my appointed time I went. I left quite disappointed not knowing if the lifeless presentation, yet somewhat harsh mid-band, lame bottom end

Was this a hotel room or a larger conference area? As we both know, no hotel room has decent bass unless there are literally a dozen or more bass traps.
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I've used both JBL's pro offerings, as well as their residential loudspeakers. I'm a fan, this sucked.

I'm a big JBL fan too. My main studio monitors are JBL 4430s - very large old-school speakers with 15 inch woofers and horn drivers, bi-amped with just over 1 KW.
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Yes!

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post #367 of 3048 Old 09-23-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

You do realize that Amir enjoys this, yes? The more people beat him up, the longer and more detailed his replies become. It's sad really.
I believe the publisher will know very soon. biggrin.gif
--Ethan
At one point I was going to read the article out of curiosity, but it's been so devalued by this exchange that I don't think I can fit it into my schedule. I've got a lawn dart tournament I've been looking forward to watching.
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post #368 of 3048 Old 09-23-2012, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

Was this a hotel room or a larger conference area? As we both know, no hotel room has decent bass unless there are literally a dozen or more bass traps.
I'm a big JBL fan too. My main studio monitors are JBL 4430s - very large old-school speakers with 15 inch woofers and horn drivers, bi-amped with just over 1 KW.
Yes!
--Ethan

It was a carefully selected ballroom/meeting room, that "ideally met their needs".

This was supposedly a highly optimized, fully DSP tweaked rig, with a quarter of a mil in audio.


I've seen your monitors, Keele would be proud. Those bad-boys were way ahead of their time and I'm sure they blow away just about anything even today. I'm wasn't aware of your powering scheme though.


Thanks

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post #369 of 3048 Old 09-23-2012, 10:10 PM
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Amir, as this is another of your amusing comparisons, I want to make sure I understand you properly. Consumers should be educated before advising them to seek acoustic products... check? And by your comparison, consumers should also be educated before advising them to seek esoteric cables too? And you support the effort of others to attempt such education here when the subject arises?
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post #370 of 3048 Old 09-23-2012, 11:39 PM
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I'll throw in my .02.. I recently upgraded from my old Rotel amp and processor and B&W CDM 7 speakers. I decided to go all out.. I bought B&W 802D, HTM2D,ASW855 sub, DS7 rears.. Oddly when I got home I wasnt that impressed with the speakers. After all I just spent $20,000 on speakers. I then decided to replace my amps and pre pro. I decided to buy McIntosh MC501 monoblocks with MC205 and MX-136. I could easily hear a difference. The soundstage opened up and the B&W's sounded awesome. Of course, considering the cost of McIntosh gear and B&W set me back over $30,000 which is crazy. I figured I would take it one step further and try different interconnects, speaker wire, and power cables. Honestly I couldnt hear a difference when I connected my Transparent XLR cables vs monster RCA cables, I couldnt hear a difference between $100 and $2000 speaker wire and no difference with power cables. So, IMO those made NO difference. Ill admit I did hear a difference between copper and silver interconnects but thats as far as it went. I conducted blind tests with myself and friend as far as switching cables. None could tell which if expensive or cheap cables were used. However, when I reconnected the Rotel gear it was easy to hear a difference between that and the McIntosh amps.
Take it or leave it.. Just my .02 cents.....

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post #371 of 3048 Old 09-24-2012, 08:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post

I'll throw in my .02.. I recently upgraded from my old Rotel amp and processor and B&W CDM 7 speakers. I decided to go all out.. I bought B&W 802D, HTM2D,ASW855 sub, DS7 rears.. Oddly when I got home I wasnt that impressed with the speakers. After all I just spent $20,000 on speakers. I then decided to replace my amps and pre pro. I decided to buy McIntosh MC501 monoblocks (about $8k the pair) with MC205 (5 more channels @ $5,600) and MX-136 ($10,000). I could easily hear a difference. The soundstage opened up and the B&W's sounded awesome. Of course, considering the cost of McIntosh gear and B&W set me back over $30,000 which is crazy. I figured I would take it one step further and try different interconnects, speaker wire, and power cables. Honestly I couldnt hear a difference when I connected my Transparent XLR cables vs monster RCA cables, I couldnt hear a difference between $100 and $2000 speaker wire and no difference with power cables. So, IMO those made NO difference. Ill admit I did hear a difference between copper and silver interconnects but thats as far as it went. I conducted blind tests with myself and friend as far as switching cables. None could tell which if expensive or cheap cables were used. However, when I reconnected the Rotel gear it was easy to hear a difference between that and the McIntosh amps.
Take it or leave it.. Just my .02 cents.....

IME. the most reasonable way to view the above melange of non-tests is to characterize them as random guessing mixed in with a bias towards affirming all of the most expensive purchases that you made.

For example, any test comparing copper and silver wires with identical configurations (which was probably not the actual comparison that you did) is "no differences" because all silver does is make the copper wire as conductive as it would be if it were the next size up. OTOH, the cost of silver being what it is, there is a good likelihood that the silver vendor is using a smaller gauge wire than the copper guy. So its not even a wash for the silver, its probably a loss.

Also,we don't know how old the "old Rotel amp" was or how dried out its electrolytic capacitors were, so all of your comparisons at this point net out to be mystery meat A versus mystery meat B.

Also, the Rotel amp was presumably 2.0 channels, while you appear to be comparing it to a 7.0 channel system. This is a very strange comparison, sort of like comparing a canoe to a cruise ship.

I could belabor the non-level-matched, non-time-synchronized, non-bias-controlled nature of your evaluations, but I won't.

Glad that you are happy with your choices, particularly considering the size of the investment.
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post #372 of 3048 Old 09-24-2012, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

IME. the most reasonable way to view the above melange of non-tests is to characterize them as random guessing mixed in with a bias towards affirming all of the most expensive purchases that you made..

Ah the old "human nature" element. Been there done that! I found out a long time ago the easiest person to fool is yourself when it comes to audio perception.

Over the years this revelation led me to develop an extremely scientific three-step method of proving the effect of the "human nature" element on ones' perception of ones' system;

Step 1.) Go out in the evening and have a few wobbly pops (or glasses of the vintage of choice) then come home and have a listen to how good your rig sounds, not doubt you'll crank it up a bit because it sounds so good.
Step 2.) Leave your favorite CD in and don't turn down the volume when you shut it down & go to bed.
Step 3.) Get up in the a.m. and without adjusting the volume turn on your system playing the same material before your first cup of jo.

How does it sound now? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I know it's not quite a Harman white paper, but a lot of years of research and considerable libation expense went into developing this methodology. wink.gif
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post #373 of 3048 Old 09-24-2012, 01:24 PM
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Absolutely corrupt manufacturers to the point of ridiculous. There is however a *normal* market and I feel the pricing in the normal market is perfect. For example, I'm moving from Polk to Paradigm. I can verify that my $1500 Paradigm surrounds are MUCH better then my old $500 Polk Fxi surrounds. You can sell by looking at them alone the quality difference in material and technology used. I consider the Paradigms top quality for their expected size and output. Now, as far as I'm concerned, you can go out and spend $100,000 on a similar sized surround by some crazy fabulously named company. Now, Ill admit that ya, the sound might be 1% better then the Paradigms and 10% better then the polks. As an IT guy I've seemed this home theater stuff move into my field and have been utterly shocked how ridiculous it is and nothing need to be said more than pricing on things like HDMI cables. Its important for readers to note that AVS is notorious for being filled with representatives of companies that sell these things and others and you must always read into anything you see here, especially this thread and those like this.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -Arthur C. Clarke
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post #374 of 3048 Old 09-24-2012, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

Polys are not a competing product because they're always built on site. I'm not aware of any commercial poly product.
There are commercial products Ethan. Here is one from GIK Acoustics that is very reasonably priced at $79 and attractive:http://gikacoustics.com/gik_poly.html

gik_poly_01.jpg

Here are some others: http://www.flourishacoustics.com/sound_diffusors_acoustic_panels.html

diffusor_array_244_2.jpg

And http://www.acousticsfirst.com/diffuser-double-duty-barrel.htm

DoubleDutyDiffuser_White_small.png

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post #375 of 3048 Old 09-24-2012, 02:31 PM
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I'm not aware of what a commercial poly product is, but I've seen the Acousticsfirst model above, the other two I've not seen.


With regard to tleavit's point on loudspeakers;
I'd like to point out there's extra-ordinary bang for the buck in the professional offerings. For example the "studio monitor" products such as the active, dsp contoured two ways from a variety of mfrs,..as well as pro audio sound reinforcement, active powered, dsp tuned, two-ways/multi-ways. Largely these products in general possess so much value, and their level of refinement has risen significantly in recent years. The market they compete in is so competitive that the value one can achieve is truly fantastic.

For individuals with modest budgets, and if their space isn't overly large, you can utilize some active two ways in the $250 apiece range and with a subwoofer achieve a very nice result. There's a commensurate level of refinement as you up the price from there. Mackie, JBL, and KRK two-ways and a nice subwoofer system would be very nice. If you want realistic playback levels, the QSC K-8 will fit the bill with essentially "blow you away levels" for $600 apiece, and they sound fine too.

Thanks

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post #376 of 3048 Old 09-24-2012, 02:34 PM
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Are you sure GIK still sells those? I recall they stopped selling them a few months after they came out. Regardless, those are not diffusers, they're deflectors. So they're still no competition for the genuine QRD diffusers my company sells, which also absorb bass. Though you are correct that apparently there are polys available commercially.

Regardless, your main point that blind tests are needed to know if acoustic treatment is any good remains preposterous. I look forward to your upcoming article in Wide Screen Review magazine, which will be right next to mine. biggrin.gif

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post #377 of 3048 Old 09-24-2012, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Again, citing examples is a waste of keystrokes because any / all of you with strong opinions have probably done your own tests and reached your own conclusions. I too have done this and reached my own as well. Its mind boggling to me anyone can claim a Krell and a Sony sound basically the same. So much so that I wonder why I even engage in such a discussion.

It's not that Sony (are we talking their normal stuff or ES?) and Krell do or don't sound the same, it's that the 'Audiophile' offering does this or that or the other vs none audiophile nameplate.

I had running for three years a bet that if you came over and could pick out a Parasound HCA 1000A from a Crown XLS 402D 9/10 coin flips the Parasound was yours and I added $500 for good measure. Just never a taker.

I've offered $$ to cable burn in proponents that I would ship them two sets of cables. One set burned in and the other not. Randomly labeled and send a password protected zip file with the labeling legend. Not a single taker.

What I am trying to figure out now is actually how to cash in on this.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #378 of 3048 Old 09-24-2012, 08:11 PM
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What I am trying to figure out now is actually how to cash in on this.

Seems the cash typically has tried to flow the other way in these kinds of challenges, but without success.
http://gizmodo.com/305549/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better
No takers for his challenges either. And the stakes were a tad higher than your more than reasonable offer.

You could say, cash flow not withstanding, the point has been made.
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post #379 of 3048 Old 09-24-2012, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

I look forward to your upcoming article in Wide Screen Review magazine, which will be right next to mine. biggrin.gif
--Ethan

Well, that drove me to the mag's web site, but I only saw Amir's article in the table of contents. Darn. Had your's been there, that may have gotten me to pop for the ragazine after all. Oh well. Next month?
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post #380 of 3048 Old 09-24-2012, 08:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Amir, as this is another of your amusing comparisons, I want to make sure I understand you properly. Consumers should be educated before advising them to seek acoustic products... check? And by your comparison, consumers should also be educated before advising them to seek esoteric cables too? And you support the effort of others to attempt such education here when the subject arises?

I believe that many of us are aware of certain "consumer education" efforts associated with say, asynch USB DACs. I don't recall any DBTs being part of the story being told.

With the asynch DACs the issue was different than it is with acoustic treatments. With acoustic treatments I am unaware of anybody questioning whether or not they have audible effects. With the asynch USB DACs that was the big unanswered question - are their alleged benefits even audible?
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post #381 of 3048 Old 09-25-2012, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by has7738 View Post

Next month?

Yes, I believe it will be in the October issue. Whichever issue is the one after the CEDIA issue.

--Ethan

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post #382 of 3048 Old 09-25-2012, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

IME. the most reasonable way to view the above melange of non-tests is to characterize them as random guessing mixed in with a bias towards affirming all of the most expensive purchases that you made.
For example, any test comparing copper and silver wires with identical configurations (which was probably not the actual comparison that you did) is "no differences" because all silver does is make the copper wire as conductive as it would be if it were the next size up. OTOH, the cost of silver being what it is, there is a good likelihood that the silver vendor is using a smaller gauge wire than the copper guy. So its not even a wash for the silver, its probably a loss.
Also,we don't know how old the "old Rotel amp" was or how dried out its electrolytic capacitors were, so all of your comparisons at this point net out to be mystery meat A versus mystery meat B.
Also, the Rotel amp was presumably 2.0 channels, while you appear to be comparing it to a 7.0 channel system. This is a very strange comparison, sort of like comparing a canoe to a cruise ship.
I could belabor the non-level-matched, non-time-synchronized, non-bias-controlled nature of your evaluations, but I won't.
Glad that you are happy with your choices, particularly considering the size of the investment.

The Rotel Gear was only 1 year old and consisted of RPS- 1069, along with thieir RMB 5 ch 200w x 5 (which matches the MC205 @ 200x5) and the RMB 380w x 2 (not match for MC501 @ 500w mono block)
I simply disconnected the 5 ch rotel amp and connected the 5 ch Mc amp. ( you could easily hear a difference) as far as justifying the price, that up to your ears to decide. When I swapped out speaker cable ie, copper vs. silver. I couldnt hear a difference. However, when I used different XLR cables, silver vs. copper, the silver was much brighter. (Everyone could tell a difference) The XLR was Transparent MM2 vs Wire World Silver. just my .02cents

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post #383 of 3048 Old 09-25-2012, 05:35 PM
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I just think it's frankly hypocritical to preach that education should be offered before advising to spend money on certain products and yet acting as if those making an effort to educate are some agenda driven nazis stomping on the rights of the fool to be foolish.

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post #384 of 3048 Old 09-25-2012, 05:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post

The Rotel Gear was only 1 year old and consisted of RPS- 1069, along with thieir RMB 5 ch 200w x 5 (which matches the MC205 @ 200x5) and the RMB 380w x 2 (not match for MC501 @ 500w mono block)
I simply disconnected the 5 ch rotel amp and connected the 5 ch Mc amp. ( you could easily hear a difference) as far as justifying the price, that up to your ears to decide. When I swapped out speaker cable ie, copper vs. silver. I couldnt hear a difference. However, when I used different XLR cables, silver vs. copper, the silver was much brighter. (Everyone could tell a difference) The XLR was Transparent MM2 vs Wire World Silver. just my .02cents

Did you match the levels that the system played at, and if so how?
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post #385 of 3048 Old 09-25-2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio 
I simply disconnected the 5 ch rotel amp and connected the 5 ch Mc amp. ( you could easily hear a difference)
Amplifiers can have different input sensitivities and gains, meaning a direct swap from one to another is not assured to result in the same loudness even though the preamp volume hasn't been touched. I'd have to look up the specific amps in question to see if this was obviously the case improve only just a possibility. It is well know that even subtle changes in volume have an effect on what we perceive as better or worse. This is why comparisons, to be meaningful, must be done with care and with certain criteria met. Its also why die hard audiophiles refuse to take such care... no one wants to hear those cherished differences dissolve.

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post #386 of 3048 Old 09-25-2012, 10:50 PM
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I used an SPL Meter. I disagree that you have to spend a fortune for better gear. I honestly dont think any amp is worth the price. Ie, McIntosh, Krell, Bryston, Ayre and the list continues.. I think they are majorly overpriced. I also think B & W speakers are WAY overpriced. There is no way in hell they have $8,000 worth of parts in those speakers. I dont care what the reps say..... One B & W rep tried telling me the diamond tweeter alone cost $5,000 so I said I guess there giving away the 805 for free since they retailied for $5,000 ( no answer ) do they really think consumers are that stupid? Ive listened to Krell Modulari ( $60,000 ) Wisons ( $80,000 ).. but if you have money to spend, hey its your cash. I have since sold all my Mc amps and speakers replacing them with DIY speakers that cost me $2000 for all 5 and they totally blow away my old speakers for much much less. Had I only known sooner.. I will admit the B & W speakers sounded awesome, just a bit over priced. Blame it on a midlife crisis.
* side note* They tried selling me $3500 transparent speaker cables which I did audition in my home, then plugged in 12g wire from monoprice.. ummmm no difference.. LOL same with tying to sell an overpriced HDMI cable.. but for some people its bragging rights. If I made $100,000+ a year guess it wouldnt be that big a deal. These companies do take us for rides if we let them.

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post #387 of 3048 Old 09-26-2012, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

iPhones certainly don't cost $10k and they're useful to boot. Just about everyone in modern society has a cell phone, so we're talking billions, not millions of phones in the world. It's not inconceiveable that out of that, the big chunk of the 2 million, are people with expiring contracts, or with other phones that want to switch. There may be some element of upgrading simply for the sake of upgrading but it's far removed from Apple saying you "need" to spend a minimum 10% on accessories...
I had you in the back of my mind when I watched this video so I thought I share it with you:

smile.gif

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post #388 of 3048 Old 09-26-2012, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I had you in the back of my mind when I watched this video so I thought I share it with you:
smile.gif

That's freakin hilarious! Totally unrelated to my point but funny none the less.

As usual you miss the point and come up with your own interpretation of what's being said. The most important part of what I said (.....get ready now.. ...focus......here it comes...) is: "but it's far removed from Apple saying you "need" to spend a minimum 10% on accessories..."
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post #389 of 3048 Old 09-27-2012, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

That's freakin hilarious! Totally unrelated to my point but funny none the less.

It is funny, but I think she's a plant, it's a bit. It may be legit, but there's some tells that just don't ring true.

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post #390 of 3048 Old 09-27-2012, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

Double-blind tests are needed only for products / situations where an improvement is not obvious or is commonly disputed. Say you have two speaker wires that are both thick enough to pass the required current, and they both measure the same at audio frequencies, yet some people believe they sound different anyway. In that case a blind test will tell for certain if anyone really hears a difference. This is not the case with acoustic products where the audible difference is obvious, and hard data - both lab and in situ - clearly shows the improvement in frequency response and decay times. The Data page linked above clearly shows the effectiveness of RealTraps products, and our Hearing is Believing video lets people hear the difference. If you feel the need for a blind test, close your eyes when the video gets to that section. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Regardless, your main point that blind tests are needed to know if acoustic treatment is any good remains preposterous.

They aren't needed to know if a treatment is 'objectively' good (assuming we agree on what objective targets equal 'good').

But I'm sorry, Ethan, they really are needed to know if the listener's preference has been influenced by non-audio factors. And this is not a trivial point as regards acoustic treatments....it is a real possibility. And you know I detest amir's endless diversionary tactics and obfuscations, but here he has a point.

DBTs can be and are used to test preference, not just difference. You know this, and obviously it's what Olive et al are doing in their loudspeaker DBTs. And while it may be pointless to conduct DBTS for difference when differences are vast, for *preference* it is dangerous to dismiss the need for controlled comparisons, even when differences are vast, and even when A is measurably superior to B. One could very, very easily 'prefer' that which one has paid more money for, or that which looks nicer on the walls, in a 'sighted' comparison. That is precisely what often happens in loudspeaker sighted comparisons, where measured differences can be vast, and where the preferred unit can be measurably quite inferior to the less preferred unit. That is one of the things that Olive's work demonstrated.

Acoustic treatments, to my mind, absolutely do require some sort of objective data to back up their claims. I know you agree with this. And in most cases , a good set of measurements is the best we can hope for . But alas for acoustic treatments we do NOT have a standardized measured data set, like we do for NRC-tested loudspeakers -- I'm thinknig of Soundstage's online resource, limited as it is --and it's hard to compare products measured under different conditions and sometimes using different metrics, which is the case for acoustic treatments. And on top of that, there's a complete lack of DBT data. DBTs would be hard to do without actually blindfolding someone. ...but even so, they would still be desireable. And without them you absolutely cannot rule out sighted bias influencing preference for a treatment vs nontreatment, or treatment A vs treatment B..

Lack of a good comparative data resource (measurement and/or blind listening test data) on performance of acoustic products and digital room correctors are two of the most annoying absences in the field, to me, as a consumer who understands the importance of the *room* as part of an audio system.
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