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post #1081 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Has that Audyssey reference standard been made public? If so, what is the reference? If not, then Audyssey is fair game for any comparison in the world that you can come up with.

"[...] calibrating your home theater system “to reference” means that: (i) the levels of each speaker and subwoofer are matched to each other; (ii) the playback level of the system reaches a certain sound pressure level when the volume control on your AVR is set to “0”; (iii) the time delays for each speaker and subwoofer are adjusted so that sound from all of them arrives at the same time to the central point of the listening area; and (iv) the frequency response of each speaker and subwoofer is such that the perceived octave-to-octave balance is the same at home as it is in the dubbing stage or the movie theater."

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/reference-vs-preference

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post #1082 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Has that Audyssey reference standard been made public? If so, what is the reference? If not, then Audyssey is fair game for any comparison in the world that you can come up with.

"[...] calibrating your home theater system “to reference” means that: (i) the levels of each speaker and subwoofer are matched to each other; (ii) the playback level of the system reaches a certain sound pressure level when the volume control on your AVR is set to “0”; (iii) the time delays for each speaker and subwoofer are adjusted so that sound from all of them arrives at the same time to the central point of the listening area; and (iv) the frequency response of each speaker and subwoofer is such that the perceived octave-to-octave balance is the same at home as it is in the dubbing stage or the movie theater."

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/reference-vs-preference


Does that mean "measured" flat? A picture is worth a million words.

Funny how mixing stages and movie theaters do not reproduce infra frequencies, yet many people on AVS seem to demand those same freqencies at high SPL levels in the home. I guess that throws Audyssey reference right out of the window!

Anyhow, there is no such thing as a sound stage reference. I have a Sony receiver that has three Cinema DSP soundfields. These DSP soundfields are based on the sonic signatures of three specific real life Sony sound stages. The three DSP modes do not sound the same as straight DD or DTS. So which reference should I use as a reference?

By the way, I have matched specific Sony movies with the correct Cinema DSP. You have to look at the movie credits to see what sound stage the movie was mixed on.
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post #1083 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 04:33 AM
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J_Palmer_Cass

There is a standardization organization called SMPTE. You'll find what you're looking for at http://standards.smpte.org

You can ask Chris Kyriakakis directly at http://ask.audyssey.com/

Markus

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post #1084 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post


Funny how mixing stages and movie theaters do not reproduce infra frequencies, yet many people on AVS seem to demand those same frequencies at high SPL levels in the home.

I don't know about you, but I don't consider the best movie theater sound I hear (at the local Star theater) to be any great shakes. (pun intended!)

Just like I don't consider the sound at the best large rock/pop music venue in town (The Palace) to be any better.

I think that it is pretty clear that many A/V enthusiasts are looking for a far better experience than what they find in the commercial venue marketplace. A lot of mixing stages have capabilties way in excess of even the best commercial theaters.

It is pretty well known that really top rung recorded media is mixed separately or at least mastered separately from the theatrical releases

.
Quote:
I guess that throws Audyssey reference right out of the window!

??????????????

Quote:
Anyhow, there is no such thing as a sound stage reference.

Agreed. There may be standards but this is not a planned economy that we live in, and people are free to do what they will in terms of facilities and productions.
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I have a Sony receiver that has three Cinema DSP soundfields. These DSP soundfields are based on the sonic signatures of three specific real life Sony sound stages. The three DSP modes do not sound the same as straight DD or DTS. So which reference should I use as a reference?

My standard speech at this point is that you are an audiophile, aren't you? Don't you have a well-developed idea of what you want to hear? If you think that you can recreate any particular soundstage or recording studio in your living room with any degree of accuracy, IMO think again!
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post #1085 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

J_Palmer_Cass

There is a standardization organization called SMPTE. You'll find what you're looking for at http://standards.smpte.org

You can ask Chris Kyriakakis directly at http://ask.audyssey.com/



Sorry, but I am not going to waste my time there. My bass management settings conflict with Audyssey recomendations. Audyssey target curves are kind of an unkown. For that matter, I do not use any automated EQ system at all.


Below you can see the actual FR measurements of a well known sound stage. Do I need to know much more about a "reference" curve?






http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/3510#post_21995351
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post #1086 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 05:19 AM
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@J_Palmer_Cass,

 

I don't follow, what are each of the traces in that plot?  The different channels?  Meaning while the curves are all flat and nearly identical the levels are off?

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post #1087 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post


Funny how mixing stages and movie theaters do not reproduce infra frequencies, yet many people on AVS seem to demand those same frequencies at high SPL levels in the home.

I don't know about you, but I don't consider the best movie theater sound I hear (at the local Star theater) to be any great shakes. (pun intended!)

Just like I don't consider the sound at the best large rock/pop music venue in town (The Palace) to be any better.

I think that it is pretty clear that many A/V enthusiasts are looking for a far better experience than what they find in the commercial venue marketplace. A lot of mixing stages have capabilties way in excess of even the best commercial theaters.

It is pretty well known that really top rung recorded media is mixed separately or at least mastered separately from the theatrical releases
.


Some people have their own opinion on the matter of mixing for home release.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/3510#post_21996455



Some comments on how many people can reproduce 20 Hz properly.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/3510#post_21996047
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post #1088 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Sorry, but I am not going to waste my time there.

? You asked what the curve looks like. Asking the one person that actually decided to use that specific curve is a waste of time?

Markus

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post #1089 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

@J_Palmer_Cass,

I don't follow, what are each of the traces in that plot?


Each curve represents the FR of one speaker.

The subwoofer FR curve is obvious.

The 2 curves at the top show the FR of the R & L mains.

The other curves show the FR of the center and surround speakers. I assume the center is the smoothest curve in the middle group of 2.
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post #1090 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Sorry, but I am not going to waste my time there.

? You asked what the curve looks like. Asking the one person that actually decided to use that specific curve is a waste of time?



I have followed the Audyssey thread enough to know that if you had a picture of the reference Audyssey curve that you would just show it here. I am not going to research it any more than I already have.



Here is another quote about "reference" and AVS posters in general.

"However, as I've pointed it out in the past, no one on here seems to be interested in reference playback..... if they were they would tune their rooms to match our standard."


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/3510#post_21995228
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post #1091 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I have followed the Audyssey thread enough to know that if you had a picture of the reference Audyssey curve that you would just show it here. I am not going to research it any more than I already have.

confused.gif Simply look at the Audyssey site, ask Chris directly or any of the Pro owners (there's a thread at AVS). You've asked a question and I gave you a helpful answer although I don't have any obligation to do so. Pretty rude to challenge my credibility in return.
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Here is another quote about "reference" and AVS posters in general.
"However, as I've pointed it out in the past, no one on here seems to be interested in reference playback..... if they were they would tune their rooms to match our standard."
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/3510#post_21995228

You're confusing two topics. Marc was talking about low frequency extension, not about a specific reference curve.

Markus

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post #1092 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I have followed the Audyssey thread enough to know that if you had a picture of the reference Audyssey curve that you would just show it here. I am not going to research it any more than I already have.

confused.gif Simply look at the Audyssey site, ask Chris directly or any of the Pro owners (there's a thread at AVS). You've asked a question and I gave you a helpful answer although I don't have any obligation to do so. Pretty rude to challenge my credibility in return.


Which target curve do you want to use? I still do not see any reference FR charts of the target curve(s). A few pictures are worth a million words.

Quote:

"Chris Kyriakakis

AudysseyContrary to popular belief, a target curve that is flat from 20 Hz to 20 kHz is not always the one that will produce the correct sound. There are several reasons for this including the fact that loudspeakers are much more directional at high frequencies than they are at low frequencies. This means that the balance of direct and room sound is very different at the high and low ends of the frequency spectrum.

The Audyssey Reference target curve setting (also called Movie in some products) makes the appropriate correction at high frequencies to alleviate this problem. A slight roll-off is introduced that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound.

The Audyssey Flat setting (also called Music in some products) uses the MultEQ filters in the same way as the Audyssey curve, but it does not apply a high frequency roll-off. This setting is appropriate for very small or highly treated rooms in which the listener is seated quite close to the loudspeakers. It is also recommended for all rooms when the receiver is in THX processing mode. This allows THX re-equalization to operate exactly as it was intended.

Some manufacturers have decided to implement a Bypass L/R (or Front) setting. This uses the MultEQ filters that were calculated for the entire listening area, but it does not apply any filtering to the front left and right loudspeakers. The average measured response from the front left and right loudspeakers is used as the target curve for the remaining loudspeakers in the system. The subwoofer in this case is equalized to flat as is the case for all the settings described above. This is not a setting recommended by Audyssey.

In some products, there is a Manual EQ setting. This is a traditional parametric equalizer that does not use the MultEQ filters or the Audyssey measurement process at all.

December 31, 2009 03:31 pm."


https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/94162-multeq-target-curves




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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Here is another quote about "reference" and AVS posters in general.
"However, as I've pointed it out in the past, no one on here seems to be interested in reference playback..... if they were they would tune their rooms to match our standard."
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/3510#post_21995228

You're confusing two topics. Marc was talking about low frequency extension, not about a specific reference curve.



I am glad that I can read for myself as well as think for myself. FilmMixer was talking about low frequency extension as well as the target curve. Kind of hard to seperate the two issues anyhow!
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post #1093 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 07:04 AM
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Which target curve do you want to use? I still do not see any reference FR charts of the target curve(s).

I recommend searching the Audyssey thread for the words "target" and "curve" by the user "audyssey"...
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

A few pictures are worth a million words.

Then get them if you need to. I've showed you where.

Markus

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post #1094 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Which target curve do you want to use? I still do not see any reference FR charts of the target curve(s).

I recommend searching the Audyssey thread for the words "target" and "curve" by the user "audyssey"...


I might add this to the previous Audyssey target curve discussion. Funny that not one of my speakers crossover near 2 kHz.

QUOTE:

"Midrange Compensation

Chris Kyriakakis January 21, 2011

Midrange compensation is an intentional dip in the 2 kHz region where the vast majority of tweeter-to-midrange crossovers are. In that region the tweeter is at the low end of its range and the midrange at the high end of its range and the directivity of the speaker goes through major changes. We found that if that region is equalized to flat, the change in direct to reflected ratio that happens because of the directivity variations causes voices to sound harsh (among other things). So, we have this implemented in the Audyssey target curve. With MultEQ Pro you can choose to turn it off, but we don't recommend it. This notion was observed 40 years ago by BBC speaker designers in their studio monitors. They designed their speakers with this "BBC dip" intentionally in the speaker response."


https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/410117-midrange-compensation


You can clearly see that midrange compensation in the Harman chart for Audyssey:





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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

A few pictures are worth a million words.

Then get them if you need to. I've showed you where.



Give me a link, because Audyssey said they do not release their target curves to the public. A search of the Audyssey thread on AVS is useless and a waste of time.

Chris seems to always skip over that "midrange compensation" in his usual manner. So "flat out to about 8 kHz" means flat to about 8 kHz except where it is not flat.

QUOTE:

"It's not generally something that we publish. The curve is flat out to about 8 kHz, then dips to about –2 dB at 10 kHz and then a little more at 20 kHz. It's based on our multi-year experience with measurements in studios and a database of several thousand rooms that we have collected."
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post #1095 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 07:30 AM
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Scotty, beam me up!

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post #1096 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 07:32 AM
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Obviously I'm not going to change your mind, so I'll explain (one final time) why I don't see them as competitors. Unlike your 2x-the-price car analogy, the cost of what Harman was going to sell their room correction for is 8x the price of the Audyssey unit. The fact that they both come in stand-alone boxes doesn't make them direct competitors. Someone shopping for pre-pros in the Outlaw and Emotiva price range is not going to be swayed by the announcement of a new pre-pro from Theta or Krell. Yes they're all pre-pros, but they don't directly compete; just the difference in price puts them in different markets with a different customer base.
I can get behind that sort of rationale. After all, isn't the Harman product marketed/sold by their luxury division? By the same token, at the time of the test, Harman was still in the stage of testing/evaluating beta units. IIRC, the final production version with whatever additional or diminished features didn't appear till 2 years later. Out of curiosity Sanjay, do you have any idea whether their H.A.T.S. system was a viable product at that time?

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I'm interested in the science. I'll leave it to others to assign motives and judge ethics.
I can get behind the science as well. Shall we say then that even if the motives were altruistic, that there were unintended benefits? biggrin.gif
Quote:
I would care if you could explain how Olive was supposed to know to use a Guide that didn't come with the Audyssey unit and apply optimization steps that weren't in the user manual. If following Audyssey's own instructions results in sub-optimal sound, then that's something that needs to be addressed by Audyssey, not Olive.
That's one way of looking at it and it may well be that was as good as Audyssey was going to perform in that environment. It also pays to bear in mind that there likely was no printed manual for the two prototypes either. The prototypes relied upon the skill of the operator(s) and one of the great things about prototypes, if it f*cks up, you can always make an adjustment.
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Room correction isn't tied to number of channels or speakers. If it works in mono, then it will work in stereo, and will work in surround. Listening in mono makes it easier to hear differences AND doesn't change preference rankings, as research has demonstrated. Unlike others, I can't dismiss that research solely because the word 'Harman' appears on the cover sheet, especially when it is backed up by research from Bech, Gabrielson, et al. (lots of confirmation out there)

No disagreement from me at least with respect to the artifacts they're looking to address.
Quote:
The purpose of this study was to compare real-world room correction systems in order to find out what factors contributed to listener preference. They used their usual approach of correlating subjective blind tests with objective measurements. Rather than finding a litany of factors, the results ended up showing that it came down to the two things I've been mentioning. Any thing else you're seeing in the comparison, especially when it doesn't appear in the paper or slide presentation, is something you're bringing to it. I won't begrudge you that, just ask you to consider the following: Is it really that unreasonable to think that reference-based room correction might not score high on a preference-based comparison? Or is the only explanation that something nefarious was going on?
I think they already knew based on their and earlier research endeavors into this area what they'd like to accomplish. You've already cited some of the work in this area. The trick if you will was developing a product that could achieve that goal in a more comprehensive fashion than existing products.They're certainly not the first company to look to improve upon existing technology and there may well come a day when a product called Comprehensive Home Utility Gigabit Automatic Instrument (CHU GAI for short) outdoes ARCOS of pennies on the dollar. tongue.gif

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post #1097 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 10:54 AM
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Sanjay is not Amirm*, or Mikey Fremer, for god's sake.
Did you know Amir considers himself an objectivitist?
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post #1098 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 11:00 AM
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What reference is Audyssey based on? Flat regardless of speaker response (on-axis and power) or is it dubbing stage and movie theater acoustics?
It appears to be the latter, at least according to Chris K's blog post that you linked to:

"The film industry adheres to a set of strict standards that are used in the creation of the content and in the reproduction of the content in movie theaters."

"So, calibrating your home theater system “to reference” means that...the frequency response of each speaker and subwoofer is such that the perceived octave-to-octave balance is the same at home as it is in the dubbing stage or the movie theater."

"Every mix is intended to deliver the message of the director..."

"They chose to put a certain amount of bass in a scene. If your subwoofer is not calibrated at the same level as what theirs was then what you hear will have more or less bass. That may be your preference, but in effect you are remixing the film."

"So, reference is a just a tool that lets you peek into the dubbing stage and hear what they heard."

"It is a safe assumption that a flat response will match the mixing conditions reasonably well. We could argue about the high frequency roll off above 10 kHz, but that is a rather fine detail."

"But know this: It’s not the job of a room correction system to determine your preference."

I think that last quote makes it clear what Audyssey isn't, which seems a more reasonable explanation for why it ranked the way it did on a preference-based comparison, rather than some notion of (intentional or unintentional) sabotage.
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If it's the latter, did the Harman study include movie mixes?
They never use movie clips for any of their studies, only music. Since they can't guarantee that their customers will limit their use of room correction to movie soundtracks only AND will always be listening at reference level, they have to design the target curve for the worst-case possiblity that listeners will be playing content that has no known reference AND will often be listening at levels that are comfortable to them. When it came to content that made it easier to hear differences, they found pink noise to work best, with Tracy Chapman's 'Fast Cars' coming in second (so far). Maybe her monotone droning made distortions more obvious to listeners. By comparison, movie soundtracks were not so revealing. I doubt that I'm the only one that has heard systems that sounded fine with movies, only to fall when playing music.

Sanjay
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post #1099 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 12:08 PM
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They never use movie clips for any of their studies, only music.

Exactly.

Markus

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post #1100 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audessy Blog 

Note - Despite our past differences and in the hopes of avoiding future conflicts, I'm not holding Mr. Durani responsible for any of the items below. They come from Audyssey, he's at most just a messenger sharing an interesting link.

(1) "So, reference is a just a tool that lets you peek into the dubbing stage and hear what they heard."

(2) "It is a safe assumption that a flat response will match the mixing conditions reasonably well. We could argue about the high frequency roll off above 10 kHz, but that is a rather fine detail."

(3) "But know this: It’s not the job of a room correction system to determine your preference."

IMO & IME (1) and (2) are pretty fanciful.

(3) strikes me as abandoning the user just when things get interesting.
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What has user preference to do with calibrating a monitor? Nothing. That's is exactly what Audyssey is trying to do by translating movie reproduction standards to the home environment.
Harman approaches the issue from the other end: find reference by looking at preference ratings in music reproduction. Problem is that there is no standard in music production so their findings can only mirror broad trends in current production practices.

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post #1102 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 12:44 PM
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Just to add to the film v music discussion, IIRC the Audyssey high frequency rolloff is amlost exactly one half ot the rolloff required when EQing mulitmillion dollar movie mixing stages to "reference" So in effect it's a treble boost versus the movie soundstage, arrived at through Audyssey's own research but generally I think it makes sense because the movie X curve is based on perceptual effects when in very large rooms (larger than rooms inside houses - - ie the size of a movie theater.)
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post #1103 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 12:47 PM
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Out of curiosity Sanjay, do you have any idea whether their H.A.T.S. system was a viable product at that time?
ARCOS is HATS, just with a more user-friendly skin to make it easier to use, kinda like the way Windows used to ride on top of MS DOS. Even the final step in ARCOS calibration (subwoofer to speaker smoothing) is a HATS subroutine (AutoCurveSum) that is used to automatically calculate a smooth blend between various drivers in a loudspeaker. What worked for Harman's speaker designers is now used by Synthesis calibrators to smooth the blend between subwoofers and speakers.
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I think they already knew based on their and earlier research endeavors into this area what they'd like to accomplish.
At minimum, they knew what listeners liked, based just on their exhaustive speaker comparisons. The target curve that Olive used was cobbled together in a couple of hours (no joke) by him and Devantier. They went through their old speaker comparisons and looked for sound power responses of loudspeakers that were most preferred. And there's your tilt. Not very complicated. The speaker comparisons also showed that smoothness of response contributed to listener preference.

But preference amongst loudspeakers might not automatically guarantee similar preference amongst room correction systems, due to factors not part of speaker design. So Olive's comparison was an opportunity to find out whether any of these factors (adherence to reference, flat response at listening position, type of EQ filter, time domain correction), touted by some room correction designers as important, had significant impact on listener preference.

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post #1104 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 12:57 PM
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What has user preference to do with calibrating a monitor?

I presume that you are talking about monitors, as in the kinds of speakers that people use to do audio production.
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Nothing.

I see things a little differently. I notice that there are at least 100 different speakers that in some sense are called "Monitors" by people who do audio production and that are fairly widely used for the purpose.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they all sounded different. I'm sure that we could ABX them all in Harman's speaker positioning gizmo, and with time and choice of music or A/V sound tracks, distinguish them all from each other.

Furthermore, carry them from studio to studio or mixing room to mixing room, and every room no matter how nice the acoustics and they will sound different by a little or a lot.

This isn't like calibrating voltmeters!
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That's is exactly what Audyssey is trying to do by translating movie reproduction standards to the home environment.

If that's what they are trying to do, IME and IMO they are destined to failure at the current SOTA.

If nothing else, the listening rooms will add their own sonic character. If you haven't noticed the larger studios have more than one dubbing stage. I'll bet money that the people who work in those places will tell you that each has its own sonic character.
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Harman approaches the issue from the other end: find reference by looking at preference ratings in music productions. Problem is that there is no standard in music production so their findings can only mirror broad trends in current production practices.

As others have pointed out there are standards that attempt to nail a few things down, but at this point nobody I know of knows how to write a standard that will make different rooms actually sound the same in the same sense that say good amplifiers sound the same. Not even close!
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post #1105 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 01:04 PM
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I presume that you are talking about monitors, as in the kinds of speakers that people use to do audio production.

No, "monitors" as in "voltmeters" (TV/computer/projection screens).

Markus

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post #1106 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

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Originally Posted by Audessy Blog 

Note - Despite our past differences and in the hopes of avoiding future conflicts, I'm not holding Mr. Durani responsible for any of the items below. They come from Audyssey, he's at most just a messenger sharing an interesting link.

(1) "So, reference is a just a tool that lets you peek into the dubbing stage and hear what they heard."

(2) "It is a safe assumption that a flat response will match the mixing conditions reasonably well. We could argue about the high frequency roll off above 10 kHz, but that is a rather fine detail."

(3) "But know this: It’s not the job of a room correction system to determine your preference."

IMO & IME (1) and (2) are pretty fanciful.

(3) strikes me as abandoning the user just when things get interesting.




Do dubbing stages have that "midrange compensation" in their FR curves? I have seen no evidence of that. The reasoning behind that 2 kHz dip seems unrelated to all of the above if you read the posting by Chris of Audyssey.


https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/410117-midrange-compensation


"Midrange compensation is an intentional dip in the 2 kHz region where the vast majority of tweeter-to-midrange crossovers are. In that region the tweeter is at the low end of its range and the midrange at the high end of its range and the directivity of the speaker goes through major changes. We found that if that region is equalized to flat, the change in direct to reflected ratio that happens because of the directivity variations causes voices to sound harsh (among other things). So, we have this implemented in the Audyssey target curve. With MultEQ Pro you can choose to turn it off, but we don't recommend it. This notion was observed 40 years ago by BBC speaker designers in their studio monitors. They designed their speakers with this "BBC dip" intentionally in the speaker response."
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post #1107 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Do dubbing stages have that "midrange compensation" in their FR curves? I have seen no evidence of that. The reasoning behind that 2 kHz dip seems unrelated to all of the above if you read the posting by Chris of Audyssey.
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/410117-midrange-compensation
"Midrange compensation is an intentional dip in the 2 kHz region where the vast majority of tweeter-to-midrange crossovers are. In that region the tweeter is at the low end of its range and the midrange at the high end of its range and the directivity of the speaker goes through major changes. We found that if that region is equalized to flat, the change in direct to reflected ratio that happens because of the directivity variations causes voices to sound harsh (among other things). So, we have this implemented in the Audyssey target curve. With MultEQ Pro you can choose to turn it off, but we don't recommend it. This notion was observed 40 years ago by BBC speaker designers in their studio monitors. They designed their speakers with this "BBC dip" intentionally in the speaker response."

I think you are right, JPC. Chris posted a fair amount about the dip in the Audyssey thread back when, and like the quote you grabbed, was consistently adamant that it worked well essentially regardless of crossover point of the actual speakers in use, which would suggest that whatever the phenomenon is, it's not just related to directivity. I don't question the existence of the phenomena that led to the BBC dip but I kind of suspect there's a preference thing in there for the Audyssey dip that mirrors slightly my personal enchantment with speakers that are a couple to three dB recessed in the presence region. Sweeter sounding. FWIW, the Audyssey dip never seemed offputting to me when I had my Maggies (crossover at 600 Hz) and I suppose it might be narrow enough to be nearly undetectableish.
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post #1108 of 3048 Old 10-25-2012, 06:57 PM
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This is what Harbeth says about the BBC dip and the rationale for it.
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13. I've heard mention of 'the BBC dip' or 'the Gundry dip'. What does that mean? Contrast it with Audyssey's explanation.
There is much myth, folklore and misunderstanding about this subject.

The 'BBC dip' is (was) a shallow shelf-down in the acoustic output of some BBC-designed speaker system of the 1960s-1980s in the 1kHz to 4kHz region. The LS3/5a does not have this effect, neither in the 15 ohm nor 11 ohm, both of which are in fact slightly lifted in that region.

According to Harbeth's founder, who worked at the BBC during the time that this psychoacoustic effect was being explored, the primary benefit this little dip gave was in masking of defects in the early plastic cone drive units available in the 1960's. A spin-off benefit was that it appeared to move the sound stage backwards away from the studio manager who was sitting rather closer to the speakers in the cramped control room than he would ideally wish for. (See also Designer's Notebook Chapter 7). The depth of this depression was set by 'over-equalisation' in the crossover by about 3dB or so, which is an extreme amount for general home listening. We have never applied this selective dip but have taken care to carefully contour the response right across the frequency spectrum for a correctly balanced sound. Although as numbers, 1kHz and 4kHz sound almost adjacent in an audio spectrum of 20Hz to 20kHz, the way we perceive energy changes at 1kHz or 4kHz has a very different psychoacoustic effect: lifting the 1kHz region adds presence (this is used to good effect in the LS3/5a) to the sound, but the 4kHz region adds 'bite' - a cutting incisiveness which if over-done is very unpleasant and irritating.

You can explore this effect for yourselves by routing your audio signal through a graphic equaliser and applying a mild cut in the approx. 1kHz to 4kHz region and a gradual return to flat either side of that.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #1109 of 3048 Old 10-26-2012, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

This is what Harbeth says about the BBC dip and the rationale for it.
Quote:
13. I've heard mention of 'the BBC dip' or 'the Gundry dip'. What does that mean? Contrast it with Audyssey's explanation.
There is much myth, folklore and misunderstanding about this subject.

The 'BBC dip' is (was) a shallow shelf-down in the acoustic output of some BBC-designed speaker system of the 1960s-1980s in the 1kHz to 4kHz region. The LS3/5a does not have this effect, neither in the 15 ohm nor 11 ohm, both of which are in fact slightly lifted in that region.

According to Harbeth's founder, who worked at the BBC during the time that this psychoacoustic effect was being explored, the primary benefit this little dip gave was in masking of defects in the early plastic cone drive units available in the 1960's. A spin-off benefit was that it appeared to move the sound stage backwards away from the studio manager who was sitting rather closer to the speakers in the cramped control room than he would ideally wish for. (See also Designer's Notebook Chapter 7). The depth of this depression was set by 'over-equalisation' in the crossover by about 3dB or so, which is an extreme amount for general home listening. We have never applied this selective dip but have taken care to carefully contour the response right across the frequency spectrum for a correctly balanced sound. Although as numbers, 1kHz and 4kHz sound almost adjacent in an audio spectrum of 20Hz to 20kHz, the way we perceive energy changes at 1kHz or 4kHz has a very different psychoacoustic effect: lifting the 1kHz region adds presence (this is used to good effect in the LS3/5a) to the sound, but the 4kHz region adds 'bite' - a cutting incisiveness which if over-done is very unpleasant and irritating.

You can explore this effect for yourselves by routing your audio signal through a graphic equaliser and applying a mild cut in the approx. 1kHz to 4kHz region and a gradual return to flat either side of that.

A dip like this can be audible, but it shouldn't be a deal breaker. A lot of the historical justification for it appears to be dependent on implementation details which may no longer apply.

As long as a system is reasonably close to smooth and right, the ear can do a good job of ignoring differences that it can also easily detect in a good listening test. There are large differences in the transmission losses from the stage to the various seats in a concert hall that are all generally acceptable to most listeners,
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post #1110 of 3048 Old 10-26-2012, 05:58 AM
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Sadly, Usenet is dying.

In general I agree.

But Usenet will continue for years to come.

I think that Usenet is dying first and foremost because configuring a PC to use it is non-trivial.

Many ISPs used to include newsgroup service as a free standard feature, but many of the majors abandoned them due to political pressure from IP providers.

There were NG's that offered a flood of copyrighted and/or morally difficult subject matter that contributed to the political pressure.

Of course, its like the web never did that!

The traffic on all of the surviving Usenet audio groups is a tiny trickle compared to say, just AVS.
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