Are audio companies all involved in a huge conspiracy? - Page 58 - AVS Forum
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post #1711 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 08:02 AM
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So if I use a room correction device, the flatness of the amps response is meaningless, right? If I first used a dead flat response amp with room correction device, would I get the same sound results If I swapped in an amp that has some slight response deviation? So ultimate flat frequency response shouldnt be a major concern if I correct it with the room correction device? But then the issues with my ears is still there, no automatic room correction device can compensate for my hearing imperfections. So a manual EQ would be needed too in my case to hear how the recording was "meant" to be heard, even if the recording was crap to start with. This doesn't even take into account personal preference, some people like too much bass output for example.

A room correction device seems a very good thing, bit maybe not the best way for everyone's different situation. I really do need to try it though, but it would have be a separate unit I could hook to my existing system, I don't want an AVR.
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post #1712 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

IDK, even Stereophile recognizes flat within the audio band as the appropriate goal for an amp (speakers and preamps, too), and points out deviations that are design choices, like early digital era British amp HF rolloffs. Shocking really that there would be a notion that something is correct so that we're not all just guessing . . . .

What I can't figure out is why square tires never caught on. Isn't circular simply a preference dictated by opinion? All you need are roads with the correct undulations and you'll get a perfectly smooth ride, right?

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post #1713 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

So if I use a room correction device, the flatness of the amps response is meaningless, right? If I first used a dead flat response amp with room correction device, would I get the same sound results If I swapped in an amp that has some slight response deviation? So ultimate flat frequency response shouldnt be a major concern if I correct it with the room correction device? But then the issues with my ears is still there though.

I would say that yes, room correction software can compensate for deficiencies in your electronics. The question then becomes how much of a premium one wishes to spend for one's electronics, if identical results can be obtained from pretty basic components.

I'll never tell anyone not to spend their money as they wish, but the majority of us are better served by spending less.

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post #1714 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 08:16 AM
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And, if they DO claim "accuracy" or "high fidelity" as goals, then it IS misleading to deliberately introduce gross colorations and then claim that they have met their design goals.

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

While popularity contests don't establish truth, they can tell you what most people think is truth. There is only a tiny minority who are interested in audio amps with inherent non-adjustable sonic coloration. The spec sheets for amps and AVRs in general are short treatises about how the equipment doesn't have audible coloration.

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post #1715 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 08:25 AM
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I'd love to see how you prove a negative... care to enlighten me?
From any statement one may infer the negation of its negation, therefore it's never the case that a quantity fails to equal itself. For instance.

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post #1716 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 08:36 AM
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Let's be very specific here.....

If you have two amplifiers, one more flat and one less so, and you make both flat using a room correction device (software or hardware), then their frequency responses will be same afterwards. But, of course, this is not to say that *everything* about them is equal.

Another issue is that, with amplifiers, frequency response is usually something that is pretty easy to get right. Most reasonably well designed amplifiers have quite flat frequency responses. So, if you have an amplifier that isn't pretty flat, then it's probably designed badly, and there might well be other things wrong with it.

Another possible issue is that room correction software itself is quite complex. The more processing the software is required to do to correct those frequency response anomalies, the more likely it is that the room correction software itself may cause other sonic problems. (If it needed more filters, or sharper filters, to correct the "worse" amp, then those filters may introduce distortions and changes of their own, which may be worse than the distortions introduced by the "less extreme" filters required to correct the amp that was flatter to begin with.) This is less likely for the kind of adjustments required for amps, but not at all unlikely for the types of corrections required for rooms and speakers. Some require far more, and far narrower, bands than others - and narrow bands with a lot of EQ are more likely to affect transient response in a filter - which can be audible.

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Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

I would say that yes, room correction software can compensate for deficiencies in your electronics. The question then becomes how much of a premium one wishes to spend for one's electronics, if identical results can be obtained from pretty basic components.

I'll never tell anyone not to spend their money as they wish, but the majority of us are better served by spending less.

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post #1717 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 08:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Not all people have the same goals. You can't make universal blanket claims about what "good" or "bad" is in electronic terms. They are subjective terms and they whatever I want them to be! Your goal might be for an amplifier to be "straight wire with gain" and no more, others feel differently. That's the nature of this hobby. You can't generalise and assume one goal applies to all people. That's just a very narrow-minded viewpoint.

If the ultimate goal for an amplifier is to make me happy then that is all that matters. Whether it be flat, or non-flat, you can't tell me what I should like or should not like, or what is "good" or what is "not good". Forcing certain ideals on other people is just another form of dogmatic BS - you do the same thing Christian fundamentalists try to do on a regular basis. It's annoying, and then you have the audacity to lock certain ideals into a box with rigid definitions that should apply to anyone and everyone. It's BS.
Amplifier is one of sound reproducing equipments. Do you know what the main criteria for judging the quality of sound reproducing equipment is?
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post #1718 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Amplifier is one of sound reproducing equipments. Do you know what the main criteria for judging the quality of sound reproducing equipment is?

Using Your ears, they convey the amount of enjoyment or lack of enjoyment you get from listening to music from the equipment.
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post #1719 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

You don't run down to the music store and buy random strings for the instrument and install them randomly until the instrument is tuned. At least I hope not. But in this world, that appears to be the most common option that is available to audiopiles. Please demonstrate how I'm wrong about that, if I'm wrong about that.
I said, "Statistics would be relevant only if the two distortions were chosen randomly, but it's entirely implausible that they would be random." Now, if I understand you, you agree that the argument you made did implicitly appeal to a randomness assumption, but you maintain that the randomness assumption is actually justified, contrary to what I said about it being entirely implausible. Right? I'll accept that random choices are "the most common option" in audiophiles' attempts to find felicitous matings of equipment for greater fidelity, as you say. However, I think you'd need something stronger than "most common", if you are to justify the randomness assumption of your earlier argument. It would have to be impossible in principle that the search for complementary distortions could be guided.

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post #1720 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

You don't run down to the music store and buy random strings for the instrument and install them randomly until the instrument is tuned. At least I hope not. But in this world, that appears to be the most common option that is available to audiopiles. Please demonstrate how I'm wrong about that, if I'm wrong about that.

I said, "Statistics would be relevant only if the two distortions were chosen randomly, but it's entirely implausible that they would be random."

Since the issue of statistics is of your creation, I'll leave you to argue with yourself.

You seem to be fully headed into an argument along the lines that if you can show any system at all to the distortions then they aren't random, and you have disproven my statement.

You are missing my numerous critical points by creating points of your own, mostly by means of excluded middle arguments.

Of course the distortion in audio equipment is not truly random in a statistical sense. Distortion in audio equipment generally follows the laws of physics which are systematic. For example, the laws of physics as applied to tubed equipment means that as a class of equipment, it tends to lack bass and treble extension. That means that is is far worse than randomly chosen equipment when it comes to pieces of equipment accidentally compensating for each other.

I have already explained a common case of this in an earlier post that you have apparently wished to ignore, where I pointed out that the frequency response of amplifiers with high source impedances tends to follow the impedance curves of the speakers they drive. We've been here before with other posters. It is the "Duck and cover" school of wasteful rhetoric.
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post #1721 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

So if I use a room correction device, the flatness of the amps response is meaningless, right? If I first used a dead flat response amp with room correction device, would I get the same sound results If I swapped in an amp that has some slight response deviation? So ultimate flat frequency response shouldnt be a major concern if I correct it with the room correction device? But then the issues with my ears is still there though.

I would say that yes, room correction software can compensate for deficiencies in your electronics. The question then becomes how much of a premium one wishes to spend for one's electronics, if identical results can be obtained from pretty basic components.

I'll never tell anyone not to spend their money as they wish, but the majority of us are better served by spending less.

The irony being that if you summarize all of the amplifier tests in Stereophile, you'll probably find a negative correlation between price and good technical performance. This is due all that very expensive tubed gear that produces the weird response and distortion curves.
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post #1722 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by diomania 
Do you know what the main criteria for judging the quality of sound reproducing equipment is?

I am the judge of what sounds good to me. Since sound quality is subjective and since there are no objective standards for stereo reproduction in the home I can quite confidently assert that a non-flat design is "better". It may not be more accurate, but accuracy and "better sound" seldom mean the same thing to all people. Just as a house curve sounds "better" than a flat room curve, it might not be accurate, but who the hell cares?
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post #1723 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

So if I use a room correction device, the flatness of the amps response is meaningless, right?

Possibly, but not certainly. The room correction devices do not have infinite computing power, so what's spent on correcting the amp is not spent on correcting the room. So it all depends on how the amps flaw coincides with what's needed to be done with room and speakers.

Another issue is noisefloor. I assume most common deviations in flatness in amps would be rolloffs... compensating a rolloff with a lift also lifts the noice floor, which might not be what you want.

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post #1724 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania 
Do you know what the main criteria for judging the quality of sound reproducing equipment is?

I am the judge of what sounds good to me.

Of course. Thing is that few of us are particularly interested in the ongoing saga of your life long dance down solipsism lane. ;-)

No, most of us are interested in what might sound good to us.

This implies a degree of generality that you seem to want to run away from. Not many will follow you, I preduct!
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Since sound quality is subjective and since no objective standards exist in stereo reproduction I can quite confidently assert that a non-flat design is "better".

Ignores history and common sense. History shows that the distortion of audio gear has been going down ever since electrical audio was first invented in the early part of the last century. Common sense says that people desire familar sounds, and up until lately, most people were more familiar with the live sound of music.

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It may not be more accurate, but accuracy and "better sound" seldom mean the same thing to all people.

Excluded middle argument. Things don't have to mean the same to all people for the best possible acceptance. All that is necessary for general acceptance is that the meanings be compatible.
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post #1725 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

So if I use a room correction device, the flatness of the amps response is meaningless, right?

Possibly, but not certainly. The room correction devices do not have infinite computing power, so what's spent on correcting the amp is not spent on correcting the room. So it all depends on how the amps flaw coincides with what's needed to be done with room and speakers.

As long as the amps have fairly smooth and small imperfections, it shouldn't make that much difference one way or the other. The methodology that Audyssey claims to use uses similar amounts of computing power no matter what the corrections are.

Quote:
Another issue is noisefloor. I assume most common deviations in flatness in amps would be rolloffs... compensating a rolloff with a lift also lifts the noise floor, which might not be what you want.


Good point, but it is often not a real world problem because the amount of lift is nominal. Since most people stopped running vinyl and analog tape the noise floor of the media has been pretty low and nominal amounts of treble lift generally don't cause hiss to start being noticeable.
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post #1726 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk 
Of course. Thing is that few of us are particularly interested in the ongoing saga of your life long dance down solipsism lane. ;-)

Yes Arnold, the question was directed towards me and hence I answered. I'm obviously not going to answer from some other perspective but my own. There is more to life than your merry band of crusaders - I could care less what you like, but when someone asks me a question then I'll answer it. rolleyes.gif
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post #1727 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S 
I am the judge of what sounds good to me. Since sound quality is subjective and since there are no objective standards for stereo reproduction in the home I can quite confidently assert that a non-flat design is "better". It may not be more accurate, but accuracy and "better sound" seldom mean the same thing to all people. Just as a house curve sounds "better" than a flat room curve, it might not be accurate, but who the hell cares?

Very well. I'm glad you like what you like. At this point, I think a simple question is warranted to assure we aren't needlessly chasing you down diversionary black holes.

Do you believe that these audible differences in amplifiers, DAC's, cables, preamps etc. are measurable?

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post #1728 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by arnky 
Ignores history and common sense. History shows that the distortion of audio gear has been going down ever since electrical audio was first invented in the early part of the last century. Common sense says that people desire familar sounds, and up until lately, most people were more familiar with the live sound of music.

Spinning your wheels trying to promote your dogma is a little hilarious and odd at the same time. You honestly believe your own drivel.
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post #1729 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

I am the judge of what sounds good to me. Since sound quality is subjective and since there are no objective standards for stereo reproduction in the home I can quite confidently assert that a non-flat design is "better". It may not be more accurate, but accuracy and "better sound" seldom mean the same thing to all people. Just as a house curve sounds "better" than a flat room curve, it might not be accurate, but who the hell cares?
Reread my question. I wasn't asking about your own perception of what's enjoyable personally to you.
Food for thought if you care to or able to digest: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425262/are-audio-companies-all-involved-in-a-huge-conspiracy/1560#post_23043669
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Originally Posted by Bigus 
Do you believe that these audible differences in amplifiers, DAC's, cables, preamps etc. are measurable?

Yes.
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post #1731 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by arnky 
This implies a degree of generality that you seem to want to run away from. Not many will follow you, I preduct!

Yeah, I don't subscribe to your closed-minded dogma. I preduct that not many will follow you either. Are you a believer or nonbeliever, arny?
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post #1732 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:56 AM
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Most that purchase low power tube gear only do so if the speakers they use are efficient enough and plus an easy to drive impedance load means a lot to combat low frequency roll-off. But there are high power tube amps with enough damping and power to drive most any speakers, though expensive as he**! The tube amp camp say the midrange quality of good tube setup is hard to beat, and offers better listening enjoyment. They more than likely don't care how flat the system would measure.

Are they wrong with that choice? I think not being this is subjective hobby and good sound and enjoyment level depends on the individuals perception of what is good.
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post #1733 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

What other methods work?
Listening. Over the course of several hours. Or days. While at times hooking up the competing amplifier, interconnect, etc., and listening to familiar pieces of music and determine which piece of gear is more pleasing to the ears.

The flat-earthers that proclaim the merits of level-matched-double-blind-ABX tests (although no doubt few, if any, have actually participated in them) are deluding themselves, but far worse, those neophytes who may actually believe these internet parrots.

When you have obviously different pieces of gear and you cannot tell any difference using ABX testing, then this is an indictment of the test itself, not of quality equipment. Human hearing is not at all good with sequential memory, that is what makes ABX testing completely useless, or worse, harmful to the advancement of the art and science of music reproduction.

Anyone who has ears and has spent any amount of time actually listening to good high fidelity sound systems, rather than just reading and rehashing internet tales, would find the truth for themselves. Unfortunately those of us that actually work for a living and pursue other outside interests do not have the time or patience to individually address the wild claims and statements made by those that spend their days in this online me-too club, that regurgitate crazy tales about coat hanger speaker cables and poorly done AB tests from the 70s and want to convince themselves and others that their three-hundred dollar system is indistinguishable from a five-thousand or hundred-thousand dollar system. (With proper room treatments of course! \sarcasm.)

I have never met an audiophile that wanted to pay more money. I have never known any to assume that a piece of gear is better simply because it is more expensive. On the contrary, they just want the best experience they can afford, because they can hear the difference. And they pursue this by trying different gear and tweaks to find what works best for them. I am quite sure that whatever amount of money they spend has bought them more enjoyment from music than any internet curmudgeon will ever know.
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Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

When you have obviously different pieces of gear and you cannot tell any difference using ABX testing, then this is an indictment of the test itself, not of quality equipment. Human hearing is not at all good with sequential memory, that is what makes ABX testing completely useless, or worse, harmful to the advancement of the art and science of music reproduction.
What expertise in art and science of music reproduction do you possess?
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I have never met an audiophile that wanted to pay more money. I have never known any to assume that a piece of gear is better simply because it is more expensive. On the contrary, they just want the best experience they can afford, because they can hear the difference. And they pursue this by trying different gear and tweaks to find what works best for them.
Anecdotal case.
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I am quite sure that whatever amount of money they spend has bought them more enjoyment from music than any internet curmudgeon will ever know.
A conclusion based on anecdotal experience. Hmm..., did you say "science" something earlier?
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Originally Posted by Riffmeister 
Listening. Over the course of several hours. Or days. While at times hooking up the competing amplifier, interconnect, etc., and listening to familiar pieces of music and determine which piece of gear is more pleasing to the ears.

Yes but the nonbelievers will simply knock you down and claim your testing was all wrong ... non level-matched, blah..blah..blah ... you anticipated a difference and therefore created one. Blah..blah..blah..
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post #1736 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

As long as the amps have fairly smooth and small imperfections, it shouldn't make that much difference one way or the other. The methodology that Audyssey claims to use uses similar amounts of computing power no matter what the corrections are.

I know they use FIR filters. But there are room corrections out there with much more limited capacity than Audyssey. I have a pair of Canton Digital 1.1 around for instance.

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Originally Posted by diomania 
What expertise in art and science of music reproduction do you possess?

Would you like me to cite a DBT that shows positive results and isn't related to speakers but amplifiers/DACs and/or cables?
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post #1738 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 10:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by diomania 
A conclusion based on anecdotal experience. Hmm..., did you say "science" something earlier?

Why not actually think for yourself for a change instead of making completely absurd claims. Now you are questioning whether people actually experienced joy from spending their hard earned cash on their equipment. You are an arrogant piece of work. rolleyes.gif
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Would you like me to cite a DBT that shows positive results and isn't related to speakers but amplifiers/DACs and/or cables?
I have reservations about your interpretation of what you read, based on this: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425262/are-audio-companies-all-involved-in-a-huge-conspiracy/1620#post_23048496

You can make same amplifier to sound different. Just play it at different volume level. You can't deny it unless you've tried it yourself.
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Originally Posted by diomania 
You can make same amplifier to sound different. Just play it at different volume level. You can't deny it unless you've tried it yourself.

You need to brush up on your reading comprehension. I said DBT - not a sighted evaluation where the volume levels are all over the place. Or are DBTs only valid if the results agree with your beliefs?
Heinrich S is offline  
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