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post #1801 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

if you want me to cite a DBT showing positive results, whether it be from an amplifier or a source component I'll do so.
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

The first link is about a study of CD tweaks where amp tests are mentioned and the methodology debated but no conclusion reached.
The second two have nothing to do with amps whatsoever.

Care to explain how you believe these support your position?
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

I wanted to show positive DBT results and I did. There are more DBT results from amplifiers alone. But I suppose you will just ignore the results. As I predicted.
CD tweaks = Source component?

As for the amplifiers alone, please do.
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post #1802 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:18 PM
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I prefer one that puts the freezing point of water at 0 degrees.

That's why I specified 32 degrees F. not C. Anything else of value to add?
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post #1803 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

I wanted to show positive DBT results and I did. There are more DBT results from amplifiers alone. But I suppose you will just ignore the results. As I predicted.

I don't think the request was for any random DBT, it was for a DBT related to amplifiers. Go back to Google and try again. Maybe the Coke/Pepsi DBT next?

Since you suggest you have the amplifier DBT's to support your case, I find it interesting you chose not to post them.
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post #1804 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:21 PM
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It has ever been thus - scientists have been executed or imprisoned for pointing out unpalatable truths, such as the inconvenient fact (for the established Church at the time) that the earth is not the centre of the universe and the sun does not revolve around it. 

Just remember science does not declare anything as a "fact". Our understanding of the earth's shape and place in the solar system is a theory based on what observations we have. It is not declared as a "fact". This is a fundamental part of the framework of science that the general public fail to grasp.
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post #1805 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by diomania 
As for the amplifiers alone, please do.

I'm been quite generous so far. I would like to see those decades of DBT results. Not a piece of text confirming it, but actual reports, documentation citing all those DBT results and I want to see verification from a third-party source. Can you point me to such a source?

Thanks a bunch!
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post #1806 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

I wanted to show positive DBT results and I did. There are more DBT results from amplifiers alone. But I suppose you will just ignore the results. As I predicted.

In your third provided link (from HydrogenAudio), please direct me to the positive DBT results. They are discussing cables there and I'm not finding anything relevant.

The collective tone and outlook of that site is just about the complete antithesis of anything you've ever uttered on this thread, so it's interesting that you've chosen to provide a link from that site in an attempt to support your perspective.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #1807 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

All normal distortion mechanisms add distortion components when combined, rather than counter existing distortion.
Thank you for the review. But I still don't understand how you reach this conclusion. Are you generalizing from your personal experience (which I understand is considerable), or is there some general reason to think that a "normal" distortion will never counter existing distortion?

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post #1808 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:25 PM
 
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They are discussing cables there and I'm not finding anything relevant.
But he's been quite generous so far. frown.gif
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post #1809 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bfreedma 
I don't think the request was for any random DBT, it was for a DBT related to amplifiers. Go back to Google and try again. Maybe the Coke/Pepsi DBT next?

I was to going to cite the Stereophile DBT but then I realised I would be wasting my time. I thought long and hard about the Coke/Pepsi DBT but ultimately decided it would more sensible to just leave it alone.
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post #1810 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

I was to going to cite the Stereophile DBT but then I realised I would be wasting my time. I thought long and hard about the Coke/Pepsi DBT but ultimately decided it would more sensible to just leave it alone.

It might be a good time to either walk away or admit you simply don't have the amplifier DBT's you claimed. Or post the links.
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post #1811 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

I was to going to cite the Stereophile DBT but then I realised I would be wasting my time. I thought long and hard about the Coke/Pepsi DBT but ultimately decided it would more sensible to just leave it alone.
Why? They would be fine as long as they are actual reports, documentation citing all those DBT results and verified from a third-party source...
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post #1812 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Just remember science does not declare anything as a "fact". Our understanding of the earth's shape and place in the solar system is a theory based on what observations we have. It is not declared as a "fact".
And are "what observations we have" facts? No, I guess they can't be, since science recognizes no facts. It's all just theories based on theories based on theories, all the way down. How confusing.

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post #1813 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bfreedma 
It might be a good time to either walk away or admit you simply don't have the amplifier DBT's you claimed. Or post the links.

But where are all those thousands of DBT results that have been published and verified independently? I don't see them. Can you please send me a link? I would like to see the published test results.

I am getting anxious.

Thanks!
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post #1814 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:37 PM
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I'm beginning to think you're related to anwaypasible.
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Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #1815 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

But where are all those thousands of DBT results that have been published and verified independently? I don't see them. Can you please send me a link? I would like to see the published test results.

I am getting anxious.

Thanks!

You must be confusing me with someone else. While I believe those tests exist, I didn't claim to have links to them.

You, on the other hand, claim to have links that you are withholding.
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post #1816 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:41 PM
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Room correction is applied to the signal before it gets to the amp.
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I guess I am missing something, but the amp still drives the speakers. How can the room correction work if the amps response isnt equalized or altered?
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post #1817 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:41 PM
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And are "what observations we have" facts? No, I guess they can't be, since science recognizes no facts.

To a point. Yes even an observation could be flawed. A sampling bias may have unintentionally been introduced for example. Science is structured in a way that assumes we probably have it wrong. Rather than being structured in a way that presumes we have everything right.
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post #1818 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:43 PM
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I guess I am missing something, but the amp still drives the speakers. How can the room correction work if the amps response isnt equalized or altered?

I just thought about it and answered my own question, the signal fed to the amp is altered not the actual amps response.
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post #1819 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:45 PM
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Room correction is applied to the signal before it gets to the amp.

Yes, I should of thought of it a little more before I asked the question.
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post #1820 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bfreedma 
You, on the other hand, claim to have links that you are withholding.

Well one should support their positive claims with evidence! I tipped my hat ... gave you a small piece of the pie out of good will. Now ... I have yet to see actual evidence, actual reports, meaningful information and most importantly independent verification of said results because I want to know that what I'm looking at is not ********.

I think that's fair, especially if I'm supposed to just change my beliefs. It's going to take a lot of convincing and so far I am bitterly disappointed.
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post #1821 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Room correction software, such as Audyssey for example, doesn’t try to 'correct the amp' in any way. It tries to correct the room/speaker interaction - hence the name, room correction software.

It is correcting the response curve of the amp to compensate for the room, right? So it is "fixing" the perfectly flat response amp, because of the variations of room and speaker response.

The outcome is far broader than that. The automated system attempts to correct the acoustical response of the system, which includes all of the electronics, the transducers, the room itself. If the power amp in the AVR is non-flat which could potentially be true for some switchmode power amps, then that gets corrected, too. If you drive your speakers through an outboard power amp that is attached to the preamp outputs of the AVR, any slight non-flatness that it may have gets corrected as well.

Note that this is a intentional, unbiased system. Components aren't swapped in and out without any knowledge of their actual frequency response in the system, which is what happens when audiophiles swap components in order to get "That sound".

Note too that some of us who have had equalizers in our systems all along, have been doing this manually, often assisted by measurement tools such as Room Eq Wizard (REW)..
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post #1822 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S 
I tipped my hat ... gave you a small piece of the pie out of good will.

"small piece of the pie" as in absolutely no relevancy. Thanks? confused.gifconfused.gif



Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post


You, on the other hand, claim to have links that you are withholding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

It might be a good time to either walk away or admit you simply don't have the amplifier DBT's you claimed. Or post the links.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

In your third provided link (from HydrogenAudio), please direct me to the positive DBT results. They are discussing cables there and I'm not finding anything relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I don't think the request was for any random DBT, it was for a DBT related to amplifiers. Go back to Google and try again. Maybe the Coke/Pepsi DBT next?

Since you suggest you have the amplifier DBT's to support your case, I find it interesting you chose not to post them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post



CD tweaks = Source component?

As for the amplifiers alone, please do.


Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #1823 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 02:02 PM
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Huh?

The first is a rebuttal of a supposed positive DBT tests from a Stereophile test of CD tweaks and Martin Collums test of amplifiers. While there is some commentary that puts into question some of the reasoning used in the rebuttal, one thing stands out to me... in the Collums test large portions of the data were omitted without good explanation. That's a no no. I regularly review and critique scientific research papers in refereed journals as part of my job, and the importance of inclusion and exclusion criteria is huge. HUGE! A study can say whatever you want it to say by manipulating this alone. In short, there is nothing in here that can be construed as proof of a positive DBT, not to mention that it lacks your stringent requirements for third party validation and such. rolleyes.gif

I looked at the third link too. What? This is talking about cables with geometry differences expected to cause RLC differences large enough to be potentially audible, and a single self conducted ABX experiment that supported that, gasp, perhaps the differences are audible. Again, despite it lacking your stringent requirements for third party validation and such, how is this evidence that equipment NOT EXPECTED TO SOUND DIFFERENT BASED ON MEASUREMENTS nonetheless sounds different?

The French one... not going to bother with a translator as that just opens up too many possibilities for misinterpretation both directions.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania 
As for the amplifiers alone, please do.

I'm been quite generous so far. I would like to see those decades of DBT results. Not a piece of text confirming it, but actual reports, documentation citing all those DBT results and I want to see verification from a third-party source. Can you point me to such a source?

Thanks a bunch!

Interesting how you ignore reality.

The information you desire is here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425262/are-audio-companies-all-involved-in-a-huge-conspiracy/1740#post_23053019

I believe that you even responded with some flip comment. Obviously, you have no idea about its contents. It was written by a friend of mine.
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post #1825 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Well one should support their positive claims with evidence! I tipped my hat ... gave you a small piece of the pie out of good will. Now ... I have yet to see actual evidence, actual reports, meaningful information and most importantly independent verification of said results because I want to know that what I'm looking at is not ********.

I think that's fair, especially if I'm supposed to just change my beliefs. It's going to take a lot of convincing and so far I am bitterly disappointed.

As previously explained, none of the links you posted are related to the discussion of amplifiers, so don't further your cause.

Claiming to have links actually relevant to the topic and withholding them isn't the most mature approach. That said, I'm not interested in changing your beliefs. Believe what you like, just don't expect everyone join you in abandoning science and logic.
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post #1826 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 02:04 PM
 
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Where are the THOUSANDS OF DBTS? .... where are the reports, the meaningful information ... the meat to chew on? Are the results independently verified so that we know without a shadow of a doubt that they a legitimate results? Can you point those out to me?

Please point those results to me. I am waiting in anticipation.
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post #1827 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma 
It might be a good time to either walk away or admit you simply don't have the amplifier DBT's you claimed. Or post the links.

But where are all those thousands of DBT results that have been published and verified independently? I don't see them. Can you please send me a link? I would like to see the published test results.

I am getting anxious.

Thanks!

Anxious? Obnoxious is the word that came to mind. You demand a level of rigor that you are wholly unable to abide by, and you know it. This is a typical tired debating tactic, and we know it.

What is your point dude?


I've tried to phrase simple questions simply. I'll try again:

Do you believe that there can be audible differences between two amplifiers or other pieces of gear that are unexpected due to measured performance?

What do you believe is the appropriate way to approach that question in order to get at a reliable answer?
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Where are the THOUSANDS OF DBTS? .... where are the reports, the meaningful information ... the meat to chew on? Are the results independently verified so that we know without a shadow of a doubt that they a legitimate results? Can you point those out to me?

Please point those results to me. I am waiting in anticipation.

I provided 100s of them in http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425262/are-audio-companies-all-involved-in-a-huge-conspiracy/1740#post_23053019

This is your third notice.
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post #1829 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 02:15 PM
 
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I think a DBT is a reliable method if one wants to discern audible differences between equipment without bias affecting the results, but ... the caveat is that it must be set up reliably and the listener needs to be properly trained prior to the test. Those results would need to be repeated ... a number of times to show some statistical relevance. I don't trust all DBT results ... that is just a little naive. Think about it. Would you trust a source that you know is bigoted? How many DBT results were negative that may have been positive because people were pressured one way or another and lacked the necessary training or lacked concentration due to the test conditions?

I think I already said that I think measurable differences can result in audible differences but provided the differences are large enough to be audible. Amplifiers that act like variable EQ devices can be audible. Cables that have excessive inductance or capacitance may be audible under certain conditions. DAC's may be audible in other conditions, provided non-flat frequency response and provided the deviation in response is not subtle.
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post #1830 of 3048 Old 03-07-2013, 02:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk 
This is your third notice.

You never provided anything. Kindly provide me a link to the actual documents. Not a line of text .. but actual information that is USEFUL. I mean, that's all you have? Just cite a reference that I can't see ... which is just wonderful. Case closed.

This whole discussion is over because ... you cited a line of text. What does that tell me? Nothing. Were those tests independently verified? How does anyone know if those results were reliable? Well I suppose I'll have to have faith ...
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