Are audio companies all involved in a huge conspiracy? - Page 73 - AVS Forum
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post #2161 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

You've never done a DBT of amplifiers, have you?
Yes, and all I care about is weather or not both amplifiers were driven to it's rated power- this is a true comparison, not some 10 wpc from each amplifier, that sort of testing means nothing to me. Nor should it to you.

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post #2162 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Exactly, science does not create a hypothesis that shows that something does exist and then test for that. It only seeks to disprove. The challenge is for science to show that audible differences do exist. Science must oblige.
Well, you seem to not understand. There is no challenge involved, only testing and there have been just a few in the past 30+ years.
Dbt is used to show a difference. Unfortunately most doesn't show this, the Null is not rejected.
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post #2163 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 03:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by diomania 
You've never done a DBT of amplifiers, have you?

You act like devils advocate far too much. Just relax. No need to get pushy and defensive.
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post #2164 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

Yes, and all I care about is weather or not both amplifiers were driven to it's rated power- this is a true comparison, not some 10 wpc from each amplifier, that sort of testing means nothing to me. Nor should it to you.
Amplifier's true comparison of what? And how would you set that up?
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post #2165 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

Yes, and all I care about is weather or not both amplifiers were driven to it's rated power- this is a true comparison, not some 10 wpc from each amplifier, that sort of testing means nothing to me. Nor should it to you.

It should, because with an average 87db sensitivity speaker 10w could get you to a reference level of 85db at 12'.

An amplifer test has to be based on a fixed SPL at the listening postion, not rated output, because the speakers would only use the required power at that SPL regardless of what the amp had at its' disposal.
Just cruising likes this.
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post #2166 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So you are saying that science can't prove what isn't there?

Well, proving a negative is impossible, isn't it???? But, you are welcome to try.
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post #2167 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

How do we know Richard Clark posted that? Any independent sources (besides yourself) that could possibly corroborate this claim?
How do we know you are really Heinrich S?? We have not met you, no birth records provided, independent verification by any court of law that you are who you claim to be.
You see, we can play your game as well.
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post #2168 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 03:50 PM
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Yes, and all I care about is weather or not both amplifiers were driven to it's rated power- this is a true comparison, not some 10 wpc from each amplifier, that sort of testing means nothing to me. Nor should it to you.

The claim is that amps driven within their parameters will not be distinguishable.

You cannot realistically compare an amp distorting @1% THD at 10W with an amp distorting 1% THD at 100 watts using the same speaker. It might be hard to level match smile.gif

I found it fascinating that there are audibly claims of amp differences when a REW analysis of your speakers in room response will reveal a level of distortion somewhere around 5% average or above - even when not driven to the Max level, and a typical FR variation of several dB +/- between usually any two points. The nice curves one sees in published specs is typically heavily smoothed, and done in an anechoic room, far from the typical listening condition.
I encourage anybody who maintains a subjective stance to do some REW measurements (the software is free, and a USB mic costs less than even a mid priced cable)
The term masking comes to mind.
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post #2169 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 04:11 PM
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Ok arny, I read it and no this is not a fair comparison. also note the listener comments in the bottom section. Not to mention mechanical attenuation and eq'ing of all the amplifiers compared, nor were any of them compared using their full potential (power output). So to state all amplifiers sound the same- in the case of this test- no they didn't but they were close- gee I wonder why given the above. Maggies are difficult to drive when the volume goes up, esp. that old of a version, so there - in also lies another part of the story.

Remember what I said way back, post 1560
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"However, and I stress this point, at a certain price point and build quality it becomes a mute point, rather, it then becomes a thing of personal preference.
". But there is a huge difference between the Pioneer receiver and the Levension ML-11.

This test is a shame, it is not equal by any means what so ever. Sure at say 10-20 watts they will sound close (except the pioneer receiver)- now lets see what they sound like with no eq'ing and no attenuation. Hamstringing a piece of gear proves nothing, esp. when Maggies are used.

That's a true A/B test. LOL, all Humans can run so there for all humans are all the same is what this test is akin to- hardly the truth.

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post #2170 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 04:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

This test is a shame, it is not equal by any means what so ever. Sure at say 10-20 watts they will sound close (except the pioneer receiver)- now lets see what they sound like with no eq'ing and no attenuation. Hamstringing a piece of gear proves nothing, esp. when Maggies are used.

That's a true A/B test. LOL, all Humans can run so there for all humans are all the same is what this test is akin to- hardly the truth.
What expertise do you possess in audio amplifier field? I'm asking because your words seem very authoritative. In other words, I would like to know who it is that I'm listening to.
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post #2171 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

What expertise do you possess in audio amplifier field? I'm asking because your words seem very authoritative. In other words, I would like to know who it is that I'm listening to.
I do not believe your question is germane to what is being discussed here. Credentials prove/provide nothing with regard to sound quality- no matter what any persons particular background is, IMHO it only lends to a biased opinion.

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post #2172 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

But the hypothesis always starts at the null position. Always. It is most certainly presumptuous. Perhaps I am wrong. But it's presumptuous to start with no differences existing.

It happens to be a reflection of your own hypothesis in this case. If we say, perhaps, that audio equipment is made from different designs using different manufacturing methods and different parts, then we can expect that they will all sound different, then we make that our NULL hypothesis. That would make the alternate hypothesis, your hypothesis, that they do NOT all sound the same. This does not appear to be your position, so I'm not sure why you would want this.

It is not presumptuous to start from no differences existing unless you think the test is tainted by this, in which case the test is flawed. That's what DBT's are for--eliminating bias and even perceived bias (although that bit seems not to be working for you).

Let's think about the answers we get. If the NULL hypothesis is that there IS a difference, and we get results that suggest no difference, have we suitably rejected the NULL hypothesis? It could have just been the test subjects--maybe others would have been able to tell the difference. A result of no difference is meaningful, but it can always be questioned as to whether the NULL hypothesis was truly rejected. No matter how many tests you do, short of testing every single human being who ever lived, you wouldn't be able to properly reject the NULL hypothesis.

But what if the NULL hypothesis is that there is no difference, and we get results that show a difference. This is different in a fundamental way. Even a single test subject (although I am not advising this) that showed a repeatable ability to tell the difference says something substantial about the NULL hypothesis. Properly done, a DBT with multiple and diverse test subjects that showed a repeatable, statistical ability for people to tell the difference could be said to reject the NULL hypothesis. You don't have to test every single human because you've found some that can tell the difference and it doesn't matter whether or not the rest can tell--some people can (whether they're exceptional is some way may be the subject of other tests).

Am I making sense?
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post #2173 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 04:35 PM
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Yes, exactly. The logical impossibility of proving a negative is, I thought, pretty much beyond question.

Similalry, science cannot prove there are no PCBs in teh water you have in your home. You can take a sample (and we'll assume it's perfectly representative) and send it to a lab, and they will analyze it. If they find no PCBs, they will not report 'no PCBs." They will report 'PCBs not detected" and cite the detection limit of the particular lab run. They will never say there's nothing there, just that they did not measure any.
I keep seeing stuff like this. It makes no sense. Is this "negative" that supposedly can't be proved a negated sentence? Your example "PCBs (were) not detected" is a negated sentence which states the result of a test -- is that what you mean by "proving" something? Or maybe by a "negative" you mean the negation of an existence statement -- but it can be proved that there is not a thing which is not equal to itself. Or maybe a "negative" is supposed to be a universal statement of non-existence? Yet it is provable for all things that they are not different from themselves.

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post #2174 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 04:41 PM
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Also note arny, that all source players were considered of exceptional quality (both digitally and analog), would you consider a Magneplannar III exceptional? Do you think an average listener could be able to decern the difference between say the 45 wpc Pioneer and say the NAD? They most certainly did in that review. And that was not even using the NAD's full ability.

Edit: also note that of 15 of the 25 people tested were correct over 50%, so I would state that when averaging this test, that the persons that failed, brought the over all averages below what I feel is real world.

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post #2175 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 04:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

I do not believe your question is germane to what is being discussed here. Credentials prove/provide nothing with regard to sound quality- no matter what any persons particular background is, IMHO it only lends to a biased opinion.
I wasn't asking about your credential because of sound quality. I asked who you are because what you say amplifier test is or isn't. It will be an indication whether to go on and listen more to what you have to say about amplifiers or doing so will be a waste of time. For all I know, you could be an accountant who just read a few online chats and then start talking authoritatively about amplifiers, or not. So, let me ask you again, what's your background in amplifier design and comparisons?
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post #2176 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 04:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ThinkRationally 
Am I making sense?

Yes you are making sense and I thank you for all the time and effort put in to your replies. How do scientists avoid bias affecting their results? I'm sure scientists have biased views... like everyone else.
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post #2177 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 04:58 PM
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I keep seeing stuff like this. It makes no sense. Is this "negative" that supposedly can't be proved a negated sentence? Your example "PCBs (were) not detected" is a negated sentence which states the result of a test -- is that what you mean by "proving" something? Or maybe by a "negative" you mean the negation of an existence statement -- but it can be proved that there is not a thing which is not equal to itself. Or maybe a "negative" is supposed to be a universal statement of non-existence? Yet it is provable for all things that they are not different from themselves.
This isn't a philosophy seminar, so let's narrow the claim to something you might find easier to comprehend. Here is a negative statement form that cannot be proven:

THERE IS NO EXAMPLE OF X.

To whit:

* We cannot prove that there is no example of a PCB molecule in your water supply.

* We cannot prove that there is no example in the world of a pig that can fly.

* We cannot prove that there is no human who can hear the difference between two solid state amps operating within their design limits.

However:

*If there are PCB concentrations in your water sufficient that are measurement systems can detect them, then we can prove that there is PCB in your water.

* If there are a reasonable number of pigs in the world who really can fly, then we will eventually be able to thrown one out a 6th story window without killing it.

* If there are a reasonable number of people in the world who really can hear the difference between two solid state amps operating within their design limits, then eventually someone will do an ABX test of such amps and get a positive result.

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post #2178 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:03 PM
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* If there are a reasonable number of people in the world who really can hear the difference between two solid state amps operating within their design limits, then eventually someone will do an ABX test of such amps and get a positive result.
And of what percentage then does it become factual that a difference does exist? Scientifically, anything greater then 0.

The real challenge is proving it.

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post #2179 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:09 PM
 
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kodi41, how would you set up a listening test of amplifiers driven to their rated power? You sound like someone with authority in amplifier tests so I'm asking you on this.
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post #2180 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:12 PM
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How do scientists avoid bias affecting their results?
Sometimes they don't. Think about the guys who "discovered" cold fusion. It's an occupational hazard. But succumbing to it doesn't help your career any, to say the least, so there's a strong professional pressure to stay honest and open-minded.

Also, remember that scientists generally don't become scientists in order to prove something. They become scientists in order to investigate the unknown. They may eventually embrace a hypothesis (remember: not the same as a null hypothesis) to the point where they are inadvertantly overinterpreting their data, but that's an aberration.

When Arny and his chums built the first ABX Comparator, they did not know exactly what they'd find. I'm sure they had a hunch, which is why they started, but there was no guarantee that the results would turn out the way they did. Arny may seem pretty sure of himself now, but that's what 35 years of data will do to you.

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post #2181 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:13 PM
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And of what percentage then does it become factual that a difference does exist? Scientifically, anything greater then 0.

The real challenge is proving it.
Yeah, but after you've thrown a few hundred pigs out that 6th story window, you begin to suspect that the search is pointless.

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post #2182 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:14 PM
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I asked who you are because what you say amplifier test is or isn't.
I will answer you this: Let your ears, not this forum decide for you. Take some time and go listen for yourself, not only will it be fun, but it will allow you to understand where I am coming from (maybe). Perhaps you do not understand the interaction of amplifier/speaker- if so, I can direct you to books and articles that can help.

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Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

I will answer you this: Let your ears, not this forum decide for you. Take some time and go listen for yourself, not only will it be fun, but it will allow you to understand where I am coming from (maybe). Perhaps you do not understand the interaction of amplifier/speaker- if so, I can direct you to books and articles that can help.
There are many ways to listen to amplifiers. Which way are you suggesting?
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I will answer you this:
You still haven't answered the question I asked. More of a spin game than an answer.
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post #2184 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

kodi41, how would you set up a listening test of amplifiers driven to their rated power? You sound like someone with authority in amplifier tests so I'm asking you on this.
Simple, same test as previously used, with a few very different changes. First select equal power ratings from all amplifiers used, secondly, select a speaker capable of driving the full frequency range- of which a Maggie mg3 cannot do as well as many, many other speakers. All of this set up in a controlled environmentally correct listening room, with no viewing of any of the amplifiers before testing. Then a simple watt meter placed in front of the listener along with a remote volume control.

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post #2185 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

There are many ways to listen to amplifiers. Which way are you suggesting?
You still haven't answered the question I asked. More of a spin game than an answer.
Not a spin game- who I am matters not.
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There are many ways to listen to amplifiers. Which way are you suggesting?
No, there is only one way- with your ears.

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post #2186 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

Simple, same test as previously used, with a few very different changes. First select equal power ratings from all amplifiers used, secondly, select a speaker capable of driving the full frequency range- of which a Maggie mg3 cannot do as well as many, many other speakers. All of this set up in a controlled environmentally correct listening room, with no viewing of any of the amplifiers before testing. Then a simple watt meter placed in front of the listener along with a remote volume control.
I see... So, no hearing protection, right? Because that would desensitize the listeners from detecting the fine details especially when amplifiers are driven to their rated power.

Important question, how many times have you performed this yourself?
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post #2187 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

This isn't a philosophy seminar, so let's narrow the claim to something you might find easier to comprehend. Here is a negative statement form that cannot be proven:

THERE IS NO EXAMPLE OF X.
An example of an analytic statement due to Bertrand Russell: The round square does not exist. Putting this into the form you say cannot be proven: There is no example of a round square.

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post #2188 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

Not a spin game-
I don't believe that. See the quote of your spin game below.
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Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

No, there is only one way- with your ears.
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post #2189 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

I see... So, no hearing protection, right? Because that would desensitize the listeners from detecting the fine details especially when amplifiers are driven to their rated power.

Important question, how many times have you performed this yourself?
An honest 100 wpc in the correct room would not cause damage to any persons hearing, nor "desensitize" their hearing.

ATi 1805/Odyssey Stratos/NAD T785, LG BR, Tosh HD, Integra RDC-7& RDA-7, Thorens TD-318, Shure Ultra 400s, AQ cable's. 2 JBL 2241 18" subs/ JBLTi/L series Mains and surround (2 centers), 2 MK MX-250's, MK 1250Thx rear For HT, 60" Pany Plasma- APC power protection and stablizer. 110" projetion soon.
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post #2190 of 3048 Old 03-11-2013, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

I don't believe that. See the quote of your spin game below.
And with that I am done with you.
Just cruising likes this.

ATi 1805/Odyssey Stratos/NAD T785, LG BR, Tosh HD, Integra RDC-7& RDA-7, Thorens TD-318, Shure Ultra 400s, AQ cable's. 2 JBL 2241 18" subs/ JBLTi/L series Mains and surround (2 centers), 2 MK MX-250's, MK 1250Thx rear For HT, 60" Pany Plasma- APC power protection and stablizer. 110" projetion soon.
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