Are audio companies all involved in a huge conspiracy? - Page 76 - AVS Forum
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post #2251 of 3048 Old 03-12-2013, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Let me try to put some meat on the bones. PCBs not detected mmeans that the lab test didn't find PCBs. It doesn't mean there aren't PCBs in the sample. Pure and simple. The negative that is not proven is "there are no PCBs in this sample.
Maybe I could persuade you to reformulate this: The negative that is not supported by experiment is "there are no PCBs in this sample". This is a pretty obvious point that few would take issue with. It becomes a problem when you express your point using terms "logic" and "prove", since it is evident you don't have the foggiest idea what logic is or what a proof is like.

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post #2252 of 3048 Old 03-12-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

Are audio companies all involved in a huge conspiracy?

I can't speak for other companies, but we certainly are. Please buy 4 of our $1,500 bass traps.

Alexander Reynolds
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post #2253 of 3048 Old 03-12-2013, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kodi41 
This is for bigus: deny this....and I quote:

post 12 in another thread.
and post 17
And post 19

I had to go back and search for these... 9 years ago? Seriously? You remember everything you wrote everywhere 9 years ago? Speaking for myself, as much stuff as I've learned in the last decade, something else had to go... my internal catalog of tens of thousands of past forum posts I suppose was part of that. wink.gif

I'm still wondering what the purpose of your post was though. Why would you think I should deny what you quoted? Or if I don't, what do you imagine that proves? Very cryptic.

ps, when you quote someone it is courteous at least say who you're quoting. I wouldn't want this to devolve further and you be accused of plagiarizing, like your buddy Heinrich.

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post #2254 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by GIK Acoustics View Post

I can't speak for other companies, but we certainly are. Please buy 4 of our $1,500 bass traps.

Good one.

In the context of this threads topic, I guess it doesn't require a "conspiracy" to figure out that if someone wants to buy a pair of $250,000 speakers someone should make them!

But the mindless drivel of publications that is supported by the advertising for these units is where the "conspiracy" probably lies. (Pun intended.)
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post #2255 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by GIK Acoustics View Post

I can't speak for other companies, but we certainly are. Please buy 4 of our $1,500 bass traps.

Well played.

I'm trying to figure out where the subliminal message is in your post. Gotta give it some punch, dontcha?
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post #2256 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 02:04 PM
 
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People like to say that expectation bias results in people expecting to hear certain differences and they do. I have experienced things which run counter to that. I had certain preconceptions about a piece of audio gear and I heard what I did NOT want to hear. How do you explain that?
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post #2257 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

People like to say that expectation bias results in people expecting to hear certain differences and they do. I have experienced things which run counter to that. I had certain preconceptions about a piece of audio gear and I heard what I did NOT want to hear. How do you explain that?

Looks like even expectation bias isn't what it used to be smile.gif
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post #2258 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

People like to say that expectation bias results in people expecting to hear certain differences and they do. I have experienced things which run counter to that. I had certain preconceptions about a piece of audio gear and I heard what I did NOT want to hear. How do you explain that?

The interplay between senses, experiences, biases, and perceptions is not nearly so simple or linear. Why would you expect it to be?

Objectivists don't claim that everyone who expects the pricier amp to sound better will perceive it to be so, nor that if they do it will necessarily be due to the bias. Only that it remains a possibility, perhaps even a likely one, thus the uncontrolled perceptions are unreliable.

Oh, and that there is a way to control for the biases and render the perceptions reliable... if you dare.

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post #2259 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 02:59 PM
 
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... until such time as those perceptions are independently verified. biggrin.gif
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post #2260 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 03:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bigus 
The interplay between senses, experiences, biases, and perceptions is not nearly so simple or linear. Why would you expect it to be?

Because I hear it claimed all the time by objectivists. If you expect to hear a difference then you very well may experience a difference. If you don't think you'll experience a difference then you'll be steered into thinking no difference exists. But if your preconceptions contradict what you expect to hear then that tells me something very important. And you know what that is.

I may need a second opinion just so I can put this puzzle piece together.
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post #2261 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 03:23 PM
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There is a sucker born every minute, acoustic treatment are also marked up like 300% !
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post #2262 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S 
Because I hear it claimed all the time by objectivists.
Examples please. Even in your "paraphrase" that followed, you included the key word "may." Sounds like the message got through but you just like to argue for the sake of arguing... this time using a straw man.
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But if your preconceptions contradict what you expect to hear then that tells me something very important. And you know what that is.
No, I don't. I'm not even sure if you meant to say what you said.

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post #2263 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

People like to say that expectation bias results in people expecting to hear certain differences and they do. I have experienced things which run counter to that. I had certain preconceptions about a piece of audio gear and I heard what I did NOT want to hear. How do you explain that?
Heinrich, can you provide more detailed information regarding the piece of audio gear and what is that you heard? As it stands, it might be premature to attribute what you heard to psychological explanations.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #2264 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

People like to say that expectation bias results in people expecting to hear certain differences and they do. I have experienced things which run counter to that. I had certain preconceptions about a piece of audio gear and I heard what I did NOT want to hear. How do you explain that?

hey. How about instead of you continually throwing up whatever little thing pops into your head, AND expecting us to answer you at first have the decency and courtesy to answer the questions we ask of you?

You bloody hypocrite. You have the gall to expect answers to come to you yet all the time ignore what is asked of you.

Better yet, instead of pontificating from the sidelines you get of your arse and actually do the test. For all you know, you might just find the answers to your own questions. You wanna stay lazy then fine, start by responding yourself.

Answer the bias question. How honestly you answer will also be a guideline to all here as they can judge whether to continue playing your game.
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post #2265 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 04:23 PM
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Because I hear it claimed all the time by objectivists. If you expect to hear a difference then you very well may experience a difference.
Yes, with the proviso that expectation, in this case, can be subconscious. You don't have to be saying to yourself, I expect to hear a difference. It's enough that some little corner of your reptile brain knows that you are listening to two different things, and this overrides what your ears may be telling you.
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If you don't think you'll experience a difference then you'll be steered into thinking no difference exists.
This is wrong, and you will never hear an objectivist say it. Objectivists can be fooled into thinking there is a difference when none exists, even in cases where they consciously believe that no differences exist. I once had an audio salesman demonstrate to me the green pen effect. And yes, the CD really sounded different to me after treatment.
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But if your preconceptions contradict what you expect to hear then that tells me something very important. And you know what that is.
I'm guessing you misstated this. If not, then explain how your preconceptions might differ from your expectations.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #2266 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by terry j View Post

Answer the bias question. How honestly you answer will also be a guideline to all here as they can judge whether to continue playing your game.

Some of us have long since stopped. The only question is one of classification at this point. Here are some suggestions.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/filibuster.htm

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm
Just cruising likes this.

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post #2267 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 04:28 PM
 
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I think before I answer any more questions I think it is fair to expect to see the thousands of DBT tests that were claimed but in fact nothing was presented. Until those tests are shown I don't think it is reasonable to answer any more questions.
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post #2268 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

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But if your preconceptions contradict what you expect to hear then that tells me something very important. And you know what that is.
No, I don't. I'm not even sure if you meant to say what you said.
He's saying that people differ in their biases, and also, people can learn about their biases and correct for them. I think. My own opinion about that is that it may be so, but there is no guarantee of it. It is said that the McGurk effect is a bias that all humans share, and that it is impossible to correct for. That is, you can know about the effect, and study it for years, yet you still experience the illusion as strongly as ever.

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post #2269 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 04:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by terry j 
You bloody hypocrite.

Please don't talk like that. You've been shown to be illogical and a bit of a short fuse for a long time on this forum. Unreasonable, illogical and just sad. I feel sorry for you. frown.gif
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post #2270 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 04:34 PM
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this thread is awesome

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
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post #2271 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 04:49 PM
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He's saying that people differ in their biases, and also, people can learn about their biases and correct for them. I think. My own opinion about that is that it may be so, but there is no guarantee of it.
How can you correct for a bias that is subconscious, that you aren't even aware of? And, as the McGurk example showed, you can't even correct for the biases you know about.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #2272 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

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But if your preconceptions contradict what you expect to hear then that tells me something very important. And you know what that is.
No, I don't. I'm not even sure if you meant to say what you said.

He's saying that people differ in their biases, and also, people can learn about their biases and correct for them. I think.

I can tell you for sure that can be true some times, and not true at other times,. You may either not be able to control your biases, or if you can control your biases, controlling your biases May reduce your accuracy, sensitivity, and reliabiility as a listener.

That's one of the beauties of a blind test - you don't have to worry about controlling your biases so you can be as sensitive as you can possibly be.
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My own opinion about that is that it may be so, but there is no guarantee of it.

We seem to agree about that.
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It is said that the McGurk effect is a bias that all humans share, and that it is impossible to correct for. That is, you can know about the effect, and study it for years, yet you still experience the illusion as strongly as ever.

That is clearly true for me and everybody I know who has tried any of the well-known tests for it.

It is as frustrating as #&!! to me.
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post #2273 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 05:39 PM
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It is as frustrating as #&!! to me.

But it does speak to how little of our brain we actually control, compared to the opposite...
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post #2274 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Please don't talk like that. You've been shown to be illogical and a bit of a short fuse for a long time on this forum. Unreasonable, illogical and just sad. I feel sorry for you. frown.gif

Ahhah, thanks, but save your pity for me heh hehe.


Nah, don't have a short fuse but when appropriate, as it is here, I have zero problems pointing out when someone is being a hypocrite.



Now, you gonna man up and answer the question?
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post #2275 of 3048 Old 03-13-2013, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

People like to say that expectation bias results in people expecting to hear certain differences and they do. I have experienced things which run counter to that. I had certain preconceptions about a piece of audio gear and I heard what I did NOT want to hear. How do you explain that?

I don't think its really expectation bias, even. IME, I recall being very convinced that higher sampling rates could surely improve sound, but higher bitrates were unlikely to do so, at least when recording at something near full scale. Yet, despite my clear and semilong held bias, the first time I switched my DAW to deeper bit depth, I was knocked out by the difference I perceived in sound of a recorded acoustic guitar. So my perception was entirely at odds with my expectation. And I still can't demonstrate that my reaction was to something that changed as a result of the deeper bit depth. For my purposes, the appropriate response was clear. I had plenty of processing power and storage to record at the deeper bit depth, so that's what I did. To some extent "just in case" what I thought I heard was real. Frankly at the time I was more interested in trying to get the best recording of a decent performance I could get, not in assessing in depth the capabilities of my system in different configurations. I was analytically certain that I was not degrading my recording by using the greatest bit depth my software would support . . .

The problem is that a lot of the stuff that interferes with our perception is happening on the subconscious level, where we cannot really even perceive it, and certainly can't control it.

OTOH, it's clear that there have been situations where "no difference" "True believers" who had insufficient engineering.audio understanding have set up tests to prove their point in which through their own errors they introduced distortions that were readily audible to anybody listening with open ears.

But almost anybody can mishear, IMO. Tjere's a local high end shop that I still like to go to. Who else is going to have PROACS for me to listen to? Used to have a guy working there who was a fellow guitar player. We bonded a bit. I was listening to speakers, and we moved a pair into a separate room to audition. Left side was horribly distorted. When I pointed it out to hm, he couldn't fix it. Came back a couple of days later, and he said the amp module on the left channel was malfunctioning. Said it was fixed. We played music again. Still grossly (to me) audible distortion, that he didn't hear because his mind was focused elsewhere. I'm sure that kind of thing has happened to me, too, in one circumstance or another, so I don't too much blame the fella. But it goes to show . ..
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post #2276 of 3048 Old 03-14-2013, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

The problem is that a lot of the stuff that interferes with our perception is happening on the subconscious level, where we cannot really even perceive it, and certainly can't control it.

My understanding of all this is that our senses feed to the subconscious first, then the subconscious decides what the conscious will experience. Our vision is doing it all the time in the way we perceive colour as one example. Or if someone experiences a traumatic accident, the subconscious may decide the conscious side doesn't want to retain any memory of the event.
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post #2277 of 3048 Old 03-14-2013, 03:38 AM
 
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How do our unconscious biases affect us ... and how do our subconscious biases affect our unconscious biases, and how to our conscious biases work with those pesky biases? This is fascinating stuff. I don't think we need to make things personal. Let us all be friendly here. smile.gif
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post #2278 of 3048 Old 03-14-2013, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

How do our unconscious biases affect us ... and how do our subconscious biases affect our unconscious biases, and how to our conscious biases work with those pesky biases? This is fascinating stuff. I don't think we need to make things personal. Let us all be friendly here. smile.gif

English is not my first language but there's a difference between unconscious und subconscious.

Markus

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post #2279 of 3048 Old 03-14-2013, 04:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markus767 
English is not my first language but there's a difference between unconscious und subconscious.

Thank you for the helpful advice. It will not be soon forgotten!
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post #2280 of 3048 Old 03-14-2013, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Thank you for the helpful advice. It will not be soon forgotten!

Why the sarcasm? It isn't constructive and will eventually get you an infraction.
When reading through your posts in this thread you seem to be confused about certain terms and concepts. Your post regarding "unconscious" and "subconscious" is just another testimony. It isn't constructive to attack other members when all they did was to point out an error in your post.

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