Yamaha RX-V567 Bi-amp ADS L1530 Towers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 09-09-2012, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,
I have a Yamaha RX-v567 receiver and am attempting to bi amp a pair of vintage ADS L1530 tower speakers. The two sets of terminals on the rear of the towers are for lows and one set s for highs. The Yamaha manual simply shows how to wire the speakers in bi amp mode, however, it does not specify which one should be for the highs and which one should be for the lows. I have restored these amazing speakers and I do not want to run low frequencies through the mid and tweeter and damage them. I tested the bi amp on one tower at low volume and the highs sounded good, but I could also hear vocals clearly from the woofers as well. does anyone know if it matters which goes to the low and which goes to the high? does the amp filter it out before sending the signals to the speaker? I'm confused and want to get the most from my speakers and amp.
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post #2 of 15 Old 09-10-2012, 03:06 AM
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It won't make any difference which channel of each L or R you connect to which so long as both L channels go to the L speaker etc.

Passive biamping makes no worthwhile audible difference anyway.
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post #3 of 15 Old 09-10-2012, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambofmetalgod View Post

Hello,
I have a Yamaha RX-v567 receiver and am attempting to bi amp a pair of vintage ADS L1530 tower speakers. The two sets of terminals on the rear of the towers are for lows and one set s for highs.
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Originally Posted by a9x-308 
Passive biamping makes no worthwhile audible difference anyway.

+1 (with a bullet)

Wheel-spinning alert! ;-)

I don't know about the rest of your system, but let's say that you either don't have a subwoofer, or the one you have is far less than SOTA. Why not invest that power amp in driving a serious subwoofer?

One word: Ficar.

I guarantee you that time and effort spent on upgrading your sub will pay clearly audible dividends. Passive biamping won't.
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post #4 of 15 Old 09-11-2012, 08:59 AM
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The crossovers inside the speaker limit the frequencies that go to each driver so that they are only driven by the appropriate frequencies; this is true whether you biamp or not.

You can use either amplifier to drive either the bass or treble section of the speakers.
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post #5 of 15 Old 09-11-2012, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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the reason i want to bi amp is becasue my reciever is rated at 90watt X 7 and i do have a sub, andd am usually satisfied with my sound, however, the rear and center are rated at 80watts, but the ADS towers are rated 150watts nominal and 300 max. My logical thinking suggest that bi amping would split the workload of the reciever for the ADS?? does that makes sense? also, when doing this, do i need to set the speakers as large? and i have the biamp turned on in the reciever. when i turn the bi amp off in the reciever and hook the ADS to the front left and right channel they sound good, highs come out of highs and lows come out of woofers. in biamp mode, highs come out of both woofer and tweeters, and bass comes through the woofers too.( i do toggle the bi amp switch on recievers when switching back and forth) i could surely tell a difference in highs, just tested at low volume and wanted to get some feedback before i proceeded. i do apreceate, and am keeping an open mind to all responses.
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post #6 of 15 Old 09-12-2012, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambofmetalgod View Post

the reason i want to bi amp is becasue my reciever is rated at 90watt X 7 and i do have a sub, andd am usually satisfied with my sound, however, the rear and center are rated at 80watts, but the ADS towers are rated 150watts nominal and 300 max. My logical thinking suggest that bi amping would split the workload of the reciever for the ADS?? does that makes sense?
No, it doesn't make sense. Both amps (say L channel) give the same signal at the output but the HF channel does not supply current, therefore little to no power to the LF driver. Same with the other channel. Total power delivered to the speaker will be inaudibly different to using a single amplifier to power each speaker vs passive biamp.

Power ratings of a speaker are the maximum they can sustain long term; in your case this is the 'nominal' of 150W. The 'max' is a short term rating.
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post #7 of 15 Old 09-12-2012, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
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what would cause high frequency to come through woofers when in bi-amp mode?
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post #8 of 15 Old 09-12-2012, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Lambofmetalgod View Post

what would cause high frequency to come through woofers when in bi-amp mode?
They won't. The same full range signal is applied to the input of each amplifier, is amplified and (voltage) present at the output of each amp. For the amp connected to the HF driver and xover, at LF, the xover is a very high impedance, so even though voltage is present, little current flows. Power is voltage x current, so when no current flows, no power is applied to the load.

At HF, the HF xover presents little to no impedance to the driver, so the amp sees the speaker as an 8 ohm load, current goes into the HF driver and it makes sound, same as it would with a single amplifier driving the speaker through both xover sections.

Same with the LF section, just use the opposite terms.
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post #9 of 15 Old 09-12-2012, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Lambofmetalgod View Post

the reason i want to bi amp is because my reciever is rated at 90watt X 7 and i do have a sub, and am usually satisfied with my sound, however, the rear and center are rated at 80watts, but the ADS towers are rated 150watts nominal and 300 max.

My background includes a lot of bench testing of power amplifiers and receivers (over 40 years experience), careful tuning and subjective testing of real world music and AV systems, as well as a lot of experience with real world audio signals due to my experience with live recording and live sound (over 10 years experience.

What I see in real world systems and on the test bench are so different that my first piece of advice is that people don't take receiver power ratings very seriously, and I mean this in a good way. Most receivers are vastly overbuilt in the power amplifier department, even the ones that have far less impressive ratings than yours.

The big criticism I have with the above statement is that people are taking receiver power ratings too seriously, and not reading between the lines about what is actually there.

The first problem with audio amp power ratings is that in general, bench testing is far, far more stressful than actual use because real world audio signals have far less energy in them on the average than the test tones used on the test bench. The difference is a minimum of from 2:1 to 3:1 and is often 10:1 or more presuming that the music is playing at a continuous crescendo just below clipping, which of course never happens.

Bottom line, there's a good chance that your receiver is already capable of delivering 130-150 watts to any of your speakers, should that actually be required. Remember that the power sent to your speakers is based on the recordings you play, not the maximum power ratings of your speakers. Remember that driving speakers with amps that are rated below the speaker's maximums is mostly just cheap insurance against you damaging them with excessive power.

The way most receivers work is that they have a power supply that is capable of putting out the maximum concurrent ratings of the receiver. Your receiver has a power supply that is rated at 90 x 7 = 630 watts. Its power amplifiers are rated at 95/110/130/150 (8/6/4/2 ohm loads) watts "dynamic power" which is what the actual individual channel power amp electronics can do if it was running all by itself.

The speakers have the following specs:

"
The Stereo Review's Stereo Buyers Guide 1983 edition has the following description of the ADC L1530 speaker:

Acoustic suspension 3-way floor standing professional monitor speaker system with 2 10" high-compliance Stifflite woofers in separate chambers, 2" soft-dome midrange, 1" samarium-cobalt soft-dome tweeter. Features single switch biamplifier conversion, tweeter level switch, tweeter, midrange protection fuses; mirror symmetrical midrange/hifrequency baffles for minimum diffraction; walnut veneer finish with radius-edged solid walnut corner inserts, removable black cloth grille. Frequency response 25-20,000 Hz +\- 3dB crossovers 500 and 4k Hz; sensitivity 95 dB SPL/W/m; power rating 150 W nominal, 300 W peak program, impedajnce 6 ohms
"

Two most important specs are that these speakers are rated at 6 ohms, so the 110 wpc rating for the receiver would appear to apply, and if the speakers actually have the claimed 95 dB/W efficiency, they will be putting out about 116 dB SPL @ 1 meter (AKA very, very loud!) when the amplifier clips.

The receiver is going to perform at its optimal level until you load all the channels up in such a way that the voltage output of its power supply starts collapsing significantly (10% or more). If I was worried about this happening I'd hook a DVM up to the power supply capacitors in the receiver and monitor its voltage under the worst case program material I can find in my collection of recordings. This could be about as much fun as watching paint dry! I don't expect a lot of action on the DVM.

The other thing to consider is where you can actually go.

Looking at the option to bi-amp the speakers using the receiver's internal amps, it is unclear where that would provide any advantage. The weakest link in this receiver on the test bench would probably be its power supply, and no matter which output channels you connect your speakers to, they are all powered by the same power supply. There's no evidence that your 6 ohm speakers are taxing the power amps in your receiver since they are rated for 4 and even 2 ohm loads, and your speakers are rated as 6 ohm loads. Since you appear to be using this receiver in 2 channel mode, there is little possibility that you are overtaxing its power supply.

The source of any actual benefits to using the receiver in bi-amp mode seems to be very hard to find!

Now, lets look at a potentially more fruitful approach, which is to add more powerful outboard amplifiers which would actully offload the receiver.

Looking at the owner's manual for your receiver right here in front of me, your first problem with adding external amps is that your receiver has no line level analog output jacks that are active for all of its inputs. It has no line level audio output jacks for just the front channels, or any of the surround channels. So, it is an interesting question to ask what you would actually plug your outboard amplifiers in to? The necessary output jacks do not appear to exist! Of course we can use outboard attenuators to turn the power amp outputs of the receiver into an appropriate signal for an external power amp.

The second question is that presuming that you could come up with an appropriate signal for an outboard amplifier, what would its ratings be and how much extra sound would that give you? I guess you could get a 300 wpc power amp. Increasing amplifier power from 110 watts to 300 watts would allow you to go about 4 dB louder, IOW from 116 dB SPL to about 120 dB SPL. Not much of a benefit for all of the trouble, no?
Quote:
My logical thinking suggest that bi amping would split the workload of the reciever for the ADS?? does that makes sense?

Splitting workload only makes sense if some part of the system is overtaxed. I see no evidence that your receiver's power supply is overtaxed or even could be overtaxed. The final answer would be based on things like: "Is the receiver power supply gettting over-taxed and loosing voltage significantly? Are any of the power amps in the receiver actually getting overtaxed and clipping. I think that the best presumed answers to both questions is "No!"

It would take some in-situ measurements to shed further light on this question. If you have the resources, I can tell you what to measure and what to look for.


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post #10 of 15 Old 09-12-2012, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok guys, here's what i have concluded. I decided to hook left and right channel up in bi amp mode and listen to a song and decide if i could tell any difference. first time listening to the song bi-amp was off. i could hear the bass of the song and the highs, it sounded like it always does. turned bi-amp mode on the receiver and switched speakers to bi-amp mode,. the results; A VERY noticeable increase in highs. the receiver level was set at -25db for both tests. in bi-amp mode, the bass seemed to be less, and the high frequency where noticeably higher. the receiver was kept in direct mode for both test. i honestly couldn't tell if the bass was lower because the increased highs. the woofers were putting out a low frequency,however, as i stated before, the woofers seemed to amplify the high frequency as well. im confused.
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post #11 of 15 Old 12-08-2012, 10:53 PM
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ADS made an active external crossover for the ADS L1230/L1530/L2030, the C2000 Bi-amplifier System Control. I am no expert, but I believe using one is the only way to properly biamp the 1230's (though it looks like some people had success using other active external crossovers). It is my understanding that these are fairly rare, I was lucky that one was included with the pair of L1530's I purchased a couple of weeks ago. Without the external crossover, you would probably be better off not trying to bi-amp the speakers.
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post #12 of 15 Old 12-09-2012, 12:03 PM
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IDK those speakers, but in general those who extol the virtues of passive biamping do not cite significant frequency response changes. Sounds like your nonbiamp test did not engage the tweeters and biamped did . . . but without knowing the speakers that's a WAG.
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post #13 of 15 Old 12-18-2012, 10:11 AM
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Have had several ADS speakers in the past. Still running L1530s. As Colohiker stated, you must have an active external crossover to run these in bi-amp mode. Without it you are passing ALL frequencies to the tweeter and midrange. At the same time ALL frequencies are going to the woofers. This would explain the brightness you experienced in your test. You are extremely lucky you did no blow your domes out. The C2000 crossover is precisely matched to the driver characteristics however, these are extremely rare and overpriced for their age. Bryston makes a crossover that will work for your application.
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post #14 of 15 Old 05-20-2014, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Alrighty ( a year and a half later), I wanted to say thanks to everyone for your input. klccharter and colohiker have led me to do more research and I have concluded that a. I am lucky I did not blow my domes out and b. The correct way to bi amp these are with the external crossover as I was indeed was sending both high and low frequencies to all drivers. I'm glad I didn't crank it for my test. I've learned a lot over the past year and a half and although I still have the same rx- v57 AVR I have retired the vintage ADS to the basement and am now using polk monitor 70s for my fronts polk CS2 for center and polk monitor 60's for the rears (I wanted matching sound) with a HSU STF-2 sub on its way from California to somewhat complete my setup. These polk speakers have the option for bi-amping or bi-wiring so I figured it try the same test with these and I did not notice any audible difference (go figure). So now I wonder if someone can point me in the right direction of weather I should start a new thread. I know my receiver is not very powerful but it does sound good. But I have heard that with these polk monitor 70's, that they sound best with big clean power. Should I upgrade my AVR? Or figure a way to add an external amp. The audio manual states that the audio out jacks do not transmit digital signal from the hdmi inputs of the reciever.(bummer) . And thanks again to everyone for all your input, through research I have become an obsessed monster for sound.
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post #15 of 15 Old 09-24-2014, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambofmetalgod View Post
Alrighty ( a year and a half later), I wanted to say thanks to everyone for your input. klccharter and colohiker have led me to do more research and I have concluded that a. I am lucky I did not blow my domes out and b. The correct way to bi amp these are with the external crossover as I was indeed was sending both high and low frequencies to all drivers. I'm glad I didn't crank it for my test. I've learned a lot over the past year and a half and although I still have the same rx- v57 AVR I have retired the vintage ADS to the basement and am now using polk monitor 70s for my fronts polk CS2 for center and polk monitor 60's for the rears (I wanted matching sound) with a HSU STF-2 sub on its way from California to somewhat complete my setup. These polk speakers have the option for bi-amping or bi-wiring so I figured it try the same test with these and I did not notice any audible difference (go figure). So now I wonder if someone can point me in the right direction of weather I should start a new thread. I know my receiver is not very powerful but it does sound good. But I have heard that with these polk monitor 70's, that they sound best with big clean power. Should I upgrade my AVR? Or figure a way to add an external amp. The audio manual states that the audio out jacks do not transmit digital signal from the hdmi inputs of the reciever.(bummer) . And thanks again to everyone for all your input, through research I have become an obsessed monster for sound.
The Polk while a decent speaker in their own right and certainly more modern looking are a significant step back from the ADS L1230 in terms of sound quality.

They have the same "bi-amp" terminals the majority of modern speakers do. Regardless of how they are hooked up you are still utilizing the internal passive crossover and unless you are using separate power amps the benefit will be minimal if non existent.

What makes the ADS speakers different is that they have a switch for bi-amp mode. Notice they don't have the metal bridges or connecting speaker wire like other dual terminal speakers do. When this switch is engaged, the LF woofers are disconnected from the crossover and are fed a full range signal. The intent is have them directly coupled to the amplifier. This is why the active external crossover is needed.
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