Dolby TrueHD vs. DTS-HD Master Audio - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 105 Old 01-22-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I remember people discussing that issue with the 2L bd awhile back. PCM should work at 192khz (according to the folks who had an oppo) but when bit streaming I think it's the receiver/prepro thats down converting since it can't process the 192khz and all that audyssey blah blah and such.

Whew! After typing my post I started worrying that I had misunderstood something very basic, just because in general I take your posts as gospel re DD in particular.
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post #92 of 105 Old 01-22-2013, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Whew! After typing my post I started worrying that I had misunderstood something very basic, just because in general I take your posts as gospel re DD in particular.

aww thanks! But you probably meant to quote Roger haha

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #93 of 105 Old 01-22-2013, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

the 96 kHz part of the DTS bitstream?
Yes. DTS 192 kHz coding splits the spectrum at 48 kHz (96 kHz sampling) so that a decoder that is not 192 kHz capable has an easier time decoding the audio.

So in a dts-HD MA 192kHz 'stream' there is:
1. a dts core stream at 48kHz sample rate,
2. a lossless extension at 96kHz and
3. a second lossless extension at 192kHz (which with (1) and (2) makes up the whole lot, kind of 3-tier structure)?

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #94 of 105 Old 01-23-2013, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

So in a dts-HD MA 192kHz 'stream' there is:
1. a dts core stream at 48kHz sample rate,
2. a lossless extension at 96kHz and
3. a second lossless extension at 192kHz (which with (1) and (2) makes up the whole lot, kind of 3-tier structure)?
I went back and reviewed the spec, and I must recant. It states that only one extension can be used at a time. Either 96 kHz or 192 kHz, but not both. My apologies, Kilian.

I'm afraid that leads to the conclusion that the Oppo is downsampling the audio. Frankly I cannot understand why -- all it has to do is send it to the HDMI, same as it does for 192 kHz PCM or TrueHD. confused.gif Could it be that in order to support the internal processing for the analog outputs (bass management, perhaps delays), those resources are encroached by the HD MA decoder?
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post #95 of 105 Old 01-23-2013, 01:37 AM
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No need to apologise Roger and thanks for looking it up!

It's not confined to the Oppo. When I raised this before I was told by rdgrimes it was because Oppo uses the dts Essentials decoder. I don't know if it's the real reason or not.

I told Morten Lindberg at 2L about it and suggested using Dolby TrueHD instead and he said was he'd take it up with hardware manufacturers and that was about a year ago. At least I did try to push for Dolby for this cause as it obviously is the better choice.smile.gif

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #96 of 105 Old 01-23-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

aww thanks! But you probably meant to quote Roger haha

Yep. "My aim ain't true"
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post #97 of 105 Old 01-28-2013, 11:22 PM
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Kilian,

I was able to learn something talking to a DTS insider. The spec I was referencing is rather old, and obsolete. It has been updated and published as an ETSI spec. The newer version indeed does allow for a dual band encode, so the 96 kHz result is indeed because the Oppo is discarding the extension band to 192 kHz sample rate, and nor due to downsampling. In the end, it's 6 of one, half-dozen of the other, but thought I should correct the record.
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post #98 of 105 Old 01-30-2013, 01:52 AM
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Thanks again Roger! If you do get another chance to probe, what's the reason for all players doing this?

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #99 of 105 Old 01-30-2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Thanks again Roger! If you do get another chance to probe, what's the reason for all players doing this?
It is up to the player maker, not DTS, and that probably means it is up to the chip maker. It reduces cost to reduce the processing load. In the early days when sample rates first exceeded 48 kHz, many AVRs and chips had to downsample to 48 Khz for all the post processing. That is actually still the case in some products.

Being that BD players are not primarily focused on audio processing, the DSPs are apparently less extravagant in that respect. And particularly since any enthusiast who is keen to get the 192 kHz experience can stream out the data, I suppose they figure it's not essential to make extra efforts for player decoding of 192 kHz for every codec. They of course ignore that niche of folks who prefer to use the analog outputs. I suppose if there were more than a handful of DTS titles at 192 kHz, a case could be made. But it's a pretty insignificant number.
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post #100 of 105 Old 01-31-2013, 12:14 AM
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I understand what you're saying. The implication is that there is more than one type of dts decoder or more than one implementation for dts-HD MA and the dts claim (on their website and in the whitepaper) about bit-for-bit identical to the master just isn't always true without qualification. They say dts-HD MA supports 5.1 192kHz but conveniently omit to tell you oh by the way not all our decoders can do that. It is this which I find a little misleading and annoying more than any real loss from downsampling.

The trouble with AVR decoding is, unlike player decoding there's no easy or sure way of knowing what happens to the sample rate internally whether other processing steps are applied or not, and if the DSP applies any digital band limiting filters to the output (some Onkyo/Integra models seem to do that).

I suspect the 2L titles were encoded before the dual band encoding update, therefore old and new players must be downsampling still.

The irony is that the PS3, a games console not focused on audio can fully decode dts-HD MA 192kHz from day one and the latest BD players, even 'audiophile', 'high-end' ones that focus on audio can't and surely processing power can't be a limitation any more with streaming, 3D, 4k etc.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #101 of 105 Old 01-31-2013, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

I understand what you're saying. The implication is that there is more than one type of dts decoder or more than one implementation for dts-HD MA and the dts claim (on their website and in the whitepaper) about bit-for-bit identical to the master just isn't always true without qualification. They say dts-HD MA supports 5.1 192kHz but conveniently omit to tell you oh by the way not all our decoders can do that. It is this which I find a little misleading and annoying more than any real loss from downsampling.

The trouble with AVR decoding is, unlike player decoding there's no easy or sure way of knowing what happens to the sample rate internally whether other processing steps are applied or not, and if the DSP applies any digital band limiting filters to the output (some Onkyo/Integra models seem to do that).
Is all this concern over 2L and other niche content? Really the idea of 192 kHz is highly overrated for all the trouble it causes. Let alone the dearth of titles.

Even my lovely SSP-800 fully decodes DTS 192 kHz tracks then applies ASRC conversion to 96 kHz (same as Theta CBIII HD and others). This may sound like a sell out for 192 kHz, but it brings certain benefits in design, operation, and even sound quality (the DACs have better specs at 96 kHz than 192 kHz).
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I suspect the 2L titles were encoded before the dual band encoding update, therefore old and new players must be downsampling still.
I'm not so sure. How can you tell?
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The irony is that the PS3, a games console not focused on audio can fully decode dts-HD MA 192kHz from day one and the latest BD players, even 'audiophile', 'high-end' ones that focus on audio can't and surely processing power can't be a limitation any more with streaming, 3D, 4k etc.
Not exactly day one. The PS3 could not decode DTS-HD MA until 18 months after Blu-ray introduction. They had to completely rearrange the Cell chip resources.
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post #102 of 105 Old 01-31-2013, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Is all this concern over 2L and other niche content?

No, again it's about the dts claim, a case of 'it doesn't do exactly what it says on the tin' (modified from a British expression).
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Really the idea of 192 kHz is highly overrated for all the trouble it causes. Let alone the dearth of titles.

Even my lovely SSP-800 fully decodes DTS 192 kHz tracks then applies ASRC conversion to 96 kHz (same as Theta CBIII HD and others). This may sound like a sell out for 192 kHz, but it brings certain benefits in design, operation, and even sound quality (the DACs have better specs at 96 kHz than 192 kHz).

Better address this to Morten L. and anyone making 192kHz audio. I'm only exposing the limitations, not the advocate. Don't shoot the messenger!smile.gif
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I'm not so sure. How can you tell?

Divertimento came out in 2008, the ETSI DTS spec update was in 8.2011 (the one before was in 2002). Just putting two and two together. I can't be certain without asking Morten L which encoder he used but it's not a pressing issue.

BTW the update allows DTS-HD to do 384kHz (requiring a 3rd extension) and no longer needs the core.tongue.gif
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Not exactly day one. The PS3 could not decode DTS-HD MA until 18 months after Blu-ray introduction.
OK, day one from the day it could decode.

I've made my point and let people know dts-HD MA decoding isn't always bit-for-bit identical to the source. Time to draw a close.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #103 of 105 Old 01-31-2013, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

No, again it's about the dts claim, a case of 'it doesn't do exactly what it says on the tin' (modified from a British expression).
Not the first time. ALAC rolleyes.gif
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Divertimento came out in 2008, the ETSI DTS spec update was in 8.2011 (the one before was in 2002). Just putting two and two together.
Understood. BTW, the date the code is implemented is not necessarily related to the date the spec is published.
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BTW the update allows DTS-HD to do 384kHz (requiring a 3rd extension) and no longer needs the core.tongue.gif
LoL, a sample rate war! The "coreless" option was there originally, but the Blu-ray folks did not want to use it, so that older DVD player chips could be pressed into service.
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post #104 of 105 Old 05-27-2013, 03:55 PM
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For whatever reason I seem to end up enjoying DTS-MA more than Dolby HD mixes.

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post #105 of 105 Old 05-27-2013, 04:10 PM
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Yes, you are enjoying certain mixes more than others. No, that has nothing to do with the data compression codecs used to store those mixes on discs. TrueHD and dts-MA are really just types of zip files which are used to save space when storing large multichannel PCM soundtracks. The mixing is done long before a data compression codec like TrueHD is used to store the track on a Blu-ray disc. And there is nothing in the data compression process that changes the mix.
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