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post #1 of 24 Old 11-10-2012, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I have an Onkyo receiver and a 5.1 setup. I set everything up and calibrated it.

When i watch action movies, i have floor/wall shaking bass (which is good). If I'm watching TV with 5.1 sound, the bass is show dependant, but completely fine.

The problem is when I'm listening to music (regular cd, not sacd). I can leave the subwoofer on or off, and the bass is the same. I understand it's 2.0, and the receiver is upsampling to 5.1, but i have decent sound out of the 5 speakers, just not the sub.

Am i doing something wrong? Is there some settingi need to change? Is this normal? How can i get decent bass out of CDs?

Thanks for the help.

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post #2 of 24 Old 11-10-2012, 06:34 PM
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Are the speakers set as small or large in the AVR's settings?
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post #3 of 24 Old 11-10-2012, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Are the speakers set as small or large in the AVR's settings?

Small, not full band.

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post #4 of 24 Old 11-10-2012, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Some additional info: I've tried different "listening modes" in the Onkyo. The one I'm using now for CDs is "Dolby PL II Music", and the system says the input is 2.0 and the output is 5.1. But I hear no bass out of the subwoofer.
(I've tried the All Channel Stereo, Stereo, Pure Audio (output 2.0), Direct (output 2.0), DTS, etc. etc. etc. they sound different, but none of them seem to be utilizing the subwoofer)

When the input is 5.1 to 5.1 output, everything works perfectly.

All the connections are digital (HDMI)

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post #5 of 24 Old 11-10-2012, 07:55 PM
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I don't know how Onkyo word it, but my Yamaha has settings for 'bass out' - Fronts, Sub, or Both. Your Onkyo will have something similar. Make sure it is set on Sub.


Other than that, are you playing music that should definitely have low bass. And what are the crossover settings for the speakers?
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post #6 of 24 Old 11-10-2012, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I don't know how Onkyo word it, but my Yamaha has settings for 'bass out' - Fronts, Sub, or Both. Your Onkyo will have something similar. Make sure it is set on Sub.
Other than that, are you playing music that should definitely have low bass. And what are the crossover settings for the speakers?
I had that set to main/sub, not just sub. I'll try that out., thanks.

I ran audessey (sp?), and it set the crossovers at:
Front: 50hz
Center: 60hz
Rear: 70hz

And I've tried multiple CDs of various genre, varying from rock to jazz to classical. I can buy (download?) an audio test cd if it helps.

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post #7 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Changing that option to sub didn't help.

I put in a CD that came with the subwoofer for testing. If I crank up the volume, I can hear the sub working on that CD for the test tones. If I try to play a song from that CD at the same volume, it just becomes too loud. When I play CD's it doesn't seem... balanced between the 5 and the .1.

Actually just tried a movie (in the DVD player, not TV) I expected to have good bass, and it didn't...

Could the Onkyo be interpreting the signal from the TV (movies/shows/etc.) differently than from the DVD player? Is there some setting I need to change?

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post #8 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 06:40 AM
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What happens if you raise your crossovers to 80hz or higher?

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
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post #9 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Questions123 View Post

I have an Onkyo receiver and a 5.1 setup. I set everything up and calibrated it.

When i watch action movies, i have floor/wall shaking bass (which is good). If I'm watching TV with 5.1 sound, the bass is show dependant, but completely fine.

The problem is when I'm listening to music (regular cd, not sacd). I can leave the subwoofer on or off, and the bass is the same. I understand it's 2.0, and the receiver is upsampling to 5.1, but i have decent sound out of the 5 speakers, just not the sub.

Am i doing something wrong? Is there some settingi need to change? Is this normal? How can i get decent bass out of CDs?

I've had situations similar to yours, and in the end the problem was due to too-big peaks and dips in the bass range.

Setting up a basic acoustics measurement facility is not expensive and is almost always a good idea, but it might be extra-specially revealing in your particular case.
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post #10 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

What happens if you raise your crossovers to 80hz or higher?
That helped a little (the higher I went the better the bass got out of the subwoofer), but even at 120Hz, the bass out of the subwoofer sounds poor on CDs (even the test audio CD I got with the sub)

I changed it back to what Audessey thought it should be (for now at least)
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I've had situations similar to yours, and in the end the problem was due to too-big peaks and dips in the bass range.
Setting up a basic acoustics measurement facility is not expensive and is almost always a good idea, but it might be extra-specially revealing in your particular case.

I have no idea what this means.

Also, when watching movies on TV the bass is great, it's just when listening to CDs or watching a movie on the DVD player that I feel the bass is [almost] non-existent.

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post #11 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Questions123 View Post



Also, when watching movies on TV the bass is great, it's just when listening to CDs or watching a movie on the DVD player that I feel the bass is [almost] non-existent.



A lot of music does not have loud bass unless you play the music loud. Also, using PL-2 for 2 channel music takes a bit off of the sound quality. I play music in the 2.1 mode. Make sure that you use PL-2 music for the 5.1 mode.

Check the setup settings in your DVD player's menu. How do you connect your DVD player to your AVR?
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post #12 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

A lot of music does not have loud bass unless you play the music loud. Also, using PL-2 for 2 channel music takes a bit off of the sound quality. MAke sure that you use PL-2 music.
Check the settings in your DVD player. How do you connect your DVD player to your AVR?

Hmm... that could be it I guess. But unless I really crank it up, I hear no bass out of the sub. Even with the test CD I got with the subwoofer.

I'm using ""Dolby PL II Music" for the CDs.

The DVD player is connected via HDMI.

And I played with most of the settings, which one am I looking for? (I have a cheap phillips DVP3560). When listening to music Onkyo says the input is 2.0 (expected), when watching DVD movies Onkyo says the input is 5.1 (expected). But in both cases the bass is [almost] non-existent. Only when watching a good 5.1 movie on TV is the bass really good.

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post #13 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Questions123 View Post

I have an Onkyo receiver

What model? How do you have listening mode presets set up for the various sources? Is Audyssey engaged? Is Dynamic EQ engaged? Is Dynamic Volume engaged? What reference level offset and or trim is set? Is double bass engaged? What crossover frequencies are set?

Markus

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post #14 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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What model? How do you have listening mode presets set up for the various sources? Is Audyssey engaged? Is Dynamic EQ engaged? Is Dynamic Volume engaged? What reference level offset and or trim is set? Is double bass engaged? What crossover frequencies are set?

Onkyo TX-NR809

For TV (good bass with movies):
Dolby Digital
Audyssey is set to Movie
Dynamic EQ is off
Dynamic Volume is off
I have no idea what you mean by reference level offset. Volume? -20 to -30dB
I have no idea where to turn on double bass, I need to bring out the manual. I know hte speakers are all set to small, not full band.
Crossover are 50Hz, front. 60Hz center. 70Hz surround. 120Hz subwoofer.

For DVD player playing music (bad bass)
Dolby PL II Music
Audysset is set to Music (I've also tried Movie here)
Dynamic EQ is off
Dynamic Volume is off
I have no idea what you mean by reference level offset. Volume? -20 to -30dB
Music Optimizer is on (I've tried it off too)

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post #15 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

A lot of music does not have loud bass unless you play the music loud.

A lot of music has very loud bass, it just doesn't go down as low as movie soundtracks.

Markus

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post #16 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

A lot of music does not have loud bass unless you play the music loud.

A lot of music has very loud bass, it just doesn't go down as low as movie soundtracks.


We are talking about recordings for home use here. Obviously music (all audio for that matter) is not loud unless you turn up the volume control to make it loud. "Loud" to one person may be "quiet" to another person and "normal" to another person.
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post #17 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Questions123 View Post

Onkyo TX-NR809
For TV (good bass with movies):
Dolby Digital
Audyssey is set to Movie
Dynamic EQ is off
Dynamic Volume is off
I have no idea what you mean by reference level offset. Volume? -20 to -30dB
I have no idea where to turn on double bass, I need to bring out the manual. I think I engaged it during setup
Crossover are 50Hz, front. 60Hz center. 70Hz surround. 120Hz subwoofer.
For DVD player playing music (bad bass)
Dolby PL II Music
Audysset is set to Music (I've also tried Movie here)
Dynamic EQ is off
Dynamic Volume is off
I have no idea what you mean by reference level offset. Volume? -20 to -30dB
Music Optimizer is on (I've tried it off too)

Loud bass in TV movies is most likely caused by erroneous handling of encoding/mixing by TV stations.

Set all crossovers to 80Hz. Leave the subwoofer LPF at 120Hz.
Switch Dynamic EQ on. This should bring your missing bass back. Now bass from TV stations is probably too loud. Change reference level for that source by setting Main Menu > 4. Source Setup > 1. Audyssey > Reference Level

To get the "purest" reproduction without the AVR doing additional processing/upmixing, go to Main Menu > 5. Listening Mode Preset, select a input source and set it to the following values:

Analog/PCM/Digital > Stereo
Mono/Multiplex Source > Mono
2ch Source > Stereo
Dolby D/Dolby D Plus/TrueHD > Straight Decode
DTS/DTS-ES/DTS-HD > Straight Decode
Other Multich Source > Straight Decode

This has to be set for each input source separately. You have to switch your AVR off and on again for these settings to take effect.

Switch Music optimizer off.
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post #18 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

We are talking about recordings for home use here. Obviously music (all audio for that matter) is not loud unless you turn up the volume control to make it loud. "Loud" to one person may be "quiet" to another person and "normal" to another person.

You were talking about how loud bass is in music recordings. You said that it's generally soft in music recordings. This is wrong. It's all over the place because there is no reference level in music production. But generally there's more low frequency content in music recordings than there used to be. Listen to a recent Hip-Hop recording or Björk or...and then compare to something from the 70's.

Now you claim that music recordings generally wouldn't be loud. The opposite is true. Most music recordings are compressed to death to make them sound as loud as possible. Movie recordings are way more dynamic than contemporary music recordings. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Markus

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post #19 of 24 Old 11-11-2012, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Loud bass in TV movies is most likely caused by erroneous handling of encoding/mixing by TV stations.
Set all crossovers to 80Hz. Leave the subwoofer LPF at 120Hz.
Switch Dynamic EQ on. This should bring your missing bass back. Now bass from TV stations is probably too loud. Change reference level for that source by setting Main Menu > 4. Source Setup > 1. Audyssey > Reference Level
To get the "purest" reproduction without the AVR doing additional processing/upmixing, go to Main Menu > 5. Listening Mode Preset, select a input source and set it to the following values:
Analog/PCM/Digital > Stereo
Mono/Multiplex Source > Mono
2ch Source > Stereo
Dolby D/Dolby D Plus/TrueHD > Straight Decode
DTS/DTS-ES/DTS-HD > Straight Decode
Other Multich Source > Straight Decode
This has to be set for each input source separately. You have to switch your AVR off and on again for these settings to take effect.
Switch Music optimizer off.

Your explanation and details were really helpful. Thank you.

The dynamic eq seemed to fix everything. I now have bass in DVDs. Good bass in the test CD. And at least some bass in regular CDs.

Thanks again

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post #20 of 24 Old 11-12-2012, 08:28 AM
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Your explanation and details were really helpful. Thank you.
The dynamic eq seemed to fix everything. I now have bass in DVDs. Good bass in the test CD. And at least some bass in regular CDs.
Thanks again

Yep. Dynamic EQ was implemented specifically to mimic the dynamic sound of reference level volume (i.e. playing really effing loud) at much lower volume levels. My wife doesn't like the sound to be loud at all, so I live with my Dynamic EQ on all the time. It really does bring the bass out at lower volumes.

Now that you have turned on your Dynamic EQ, have you experimented with your crossover settings at 80hz again? You should, it will probably even out your bass response. Your subwoofer will likely handle 80hz and below better than your speakers will (depending on your speakers of course)

Also setting Auddessey Dynamic Volume can help with the volume issues as well. Each level provides an amount of compression that restricts the dynamic range some, bringing quieter sounds up a bit and louder sounds down some. I find the Day setting to be the best compromise, increasing overall volume a bit (helps hear dialogue in quiet movies) without killing the dynamic range. Experiment with these as well, they may help, but purists don't usually recommend them because they are restricting the dynamic range.

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post #21 of 24 Old 11-14-2012, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Now that you have turned on your Dynamic EQ, have you experimented with your crossover settings at 80hz again? You should, it will probably even out your bass response. Your subwoofer will likely handle 80hz and below better than your speakers will (depending on your speakers of course)
Actually I left it at 80Hz crossover on the speakers after the initial suggestion.
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Also setting Auddessey Dynamic Volume can help with the volume issues as well. Each level provides an amount of compression that restricts the dynamic range some, bringing quieter sounds up a bit and louder sounds down some. I find the Day setting to be the best compromise, increasing overall volume a bit (helps hear dialogue in quiet movies) without killing the dynamic range. Experiment with these as well, they may help, but purists don't usually recommend them because they are restricting the dynamic range.

Thanks.

I tried using the Audessey Dynamic Volume, but I didn't like the resutls (it had odd effects... one of which was if there was a sudden boom, it would muffle it and slowly bring it back within, I dunno, maybe a second?). The onkyo has "low", "medium" and "high". I didn't see a "day" option.

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post #22 of 24 Old 11-15-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Questions123 View Post

Thanks.
I tried using the Audessey Dynamic Volume, but I didn't like the resutls (it had odd effects... one of which was if there was a sudden boom, it would muffle it and slowly bring it back within, I dunno, maybe a second?). The onkyo has "low", "medium" and "high". I didn't see a "day" option.

Yeah, I'm working with a Denon. I'm sure Onkyo's Low, Med, High settings are equivalent to the Denon's Day, Night and Evening modes. I don't have any issues with the Day (low) mode. I watched The Avengers last night with it in that mode and everything sounded just fine. There was still quite a bit of Dynamic Range, with loud explosions and other sound effects, but we could still hear the dialogue clearly.

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post #23 of 24 Old 11-15-2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

What happens if you raise your crossovers to 80hz or higher?
That helped a little (the higher I went the better the bass got out of the subwoofer), but even at 120Hz, the bass out of the subwoofer sounds poor on CDs (even the test audio CD I got with the sub)

I changed it back to what Audessey thought it should be (for now at least)
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I've had situations similar to yours, and in the end the problem was due to too-big peaks and dips in the bass range.
Setting up a basic acoustics measurement facility is not expensive and is almost always a good idea, but it might be extra-specially revealing in your particular case.

I have no idea what this means.

Surely you know what peaks and dips are?????
Quote:
Also, when watching movies on TV the bass is great,

IME most TV shows over the air and off cable are missing deep bass and lack good treble.
Quote:
it's just when listening to CDs or watching a movie on the DVD player that I feel the bass is [almost] non-existent.

I balance my systems for CDs which also seems to work out for DVDs and let the TV shows fall where they may.
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post #24 of 24 Old 11-15-2012, 11:24 AM
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This thread has changed my whole setup...thank you, thank you, thank you! I have been so frustrated for a month with my bass settings with my Onkyo 707. I tried virtually everything and even purchased another subwoofer to try and address this.

Finding this thread and trying the Dynamic Equalizer changed the entire thing. I nearly did a cartwheel. Now I have an extra sub and more bass than I can handle! Now if I can just prevent my wife from realizing my other sub wasn't actually broken because I am now in love with the dual sub setup.

Thanks again.
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