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post #601 of 873 Old 01-05-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

He hates the idea of relatively cheap acoustic treatments giving terrifically better SQ. After all, if people start to realise that decent speakers + some room treatments + decent amp (note, that does not mean expensive) is all you need for terrific sound, then they won't be spending thousands on exotic cables, vastly overpriced DACs and so on... Amir will distort what you said to his own ends - he will reply to points you didn't make, create straw men to distract from the matter at hand, attempt to discredit you personally if you get under his skin and so on, especially when anyone suggests relatively inexpensive solutions that give very big improvements.

I have used some room treatments a I wrote earlier. Bass traps only now though. At least I did something all agree can help!
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post #602 of 873 Old 01-05-2013, 11:49 AM
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Room treatments,bass traps..etc definitely make a difference in the sound
From any source!..they tame the room ,if done right to achieve a very real soundstage..this was all done before my cable upgrades..yea yea..I know:-) and as far as speaker placement..oh yea..my paradigm studio 60s are very fussy..one inch this way,one inch that way makes a big difference..I found that out when one speaker sounded more laid back than the other..then I realized one was set back 1 1/2 inches than a the other..after measuring and getting exact toe in..it was much much better!
Not to change the subject but what do you pro's :-)
Think about video upscaling..etc..I run my HDMI thru pre-pro with no processing..great pic.but I just replaced my pre-pro with a new one ..again video processing off..and the picture is not as good at all!.. I think my other one upscaled everything to 1080p..now my monitor says its getting a 1080i signal...might return it and try something else..how do you all handle video?
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post #603 of 873 Old 01-05-2013, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

He hates the idea of relatively cheap acoustic treatments giving terrifically better SQ. After all, if people start to realise that decent speakers + some room treatments + decent amp (note, that does not mean expensive) is all you need for terrific sound, then they won't be spending thousands on exotic cables, vastly overpriced DACs and so on... Amir will distort what you said to his own ends - he will reply to points you didn't make, create straw men to distract from the matter at hand, attempt to discredit you personally if you get under his skin and so on, especially when anyone suggests relatively inexpensive solutions that give very big improvements.

I have used some room treatments a I wrote earlier. Bass traps only now though. At least I did something all agree can help!

 

Great bang for the buck. And a potentially significant upgrade to the SQ.

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post #604 of 873 Old 01-05-2013, 12:16 PM
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Think about video upscaling..etc..I run my HDMI thru pre-pro with no processing..great pic.but I just replaced my pre-pro with a new one ..again video processing off..and the picture is not as good at all!.. I think my other one upscaled everything to 1080p..now my monitor says its getting a 1080i signal...might return it and try something else..how do you all handle video?

 

I run all my HD sources 'direct' - that is they go through my prepro untouched. IOW what is on the disc is what comes through - 1080p24 usually. I upscale my SD sources via my DVDO video processor - up to 1080p. If you are inputting a 1080i signal into the display, then the display itself will deinterlace it to 1080p. If the display deinterlaces better than the source component or the AVR then that is the best way to do it. If the AVR is the best deinterlacer then do it there and send the display a 1080p signal. The idea is to upscale/deinterlace in whatever component you use that does it best - it could be the player, the AVR or the display itself. It doesn't matter where you do it, so long as you are using the best component for it. If you have a test disc like Spiers Munsil, then there are various tests which will let you determine which component does it best.

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post #605 of 873 Old 01-05-2013, 12:55 PM
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Ever since I've had a 1080p PJ with the REON processor, I've always got best results sending the native direct over HDMI. That's despite having technically "better" processors in the chain ahead of it. No idea why, just an observation.
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post #606 of 873 Old 01-05-2013, 01:29 PM
 
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Huston, we have a problem!
What kind of problem, audible one?
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Sure, you can argue such things are not audible. So stay there.
What do you mean "there"? This is audio section of the forum so audibility argument is "here".
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Either way, it takes away credibility.
The one who happens to be one of the biggest distorter of audio data on this forum is trying to advise someone about credibility? rolleyes.gif
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post #607 of 873 Old 01-05-2013, 01:30 PM
 
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And yet, are these levels audible.
You know amirm is going to dodge punt that question.
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post #608 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

That is an outright lie.
No acoustic treatment retailer that I know of has ever proclaimed the above. Most take a very practical approach to the whole sound enchilada. Even if that's just an analogy, the reality is that the ones participating on these forums tend to be very practical, and in fact even help out people trying to build their own treatments.
I don't know where you got this bug in your butt about acoustic treatment retailers, or if it's just you being petty for being challenged by them, but this infantile rhetoric is wearing thin and just douses anything credible you might have to say.
You are funny Rick smile.gif. If I told you that I ate in a restaurant and hated it, you can’t come here and say you loved it and hence what I said is a “lie.” Unless you are in my head and have all the experiences I have had with those members, you can’t question my views of them. You can of course share yours as you did and I will address that.

Answering your question first, yes, I have seen them use that line so often that it is as good as “eat here or to go” from a fast food place. smile.gif It is to their advantage to talk you out of other audio purchases as to funnel the maximum $$$ toward them. And I don’t say in a derogatory manner. While it is good for their business, for the most part, I think they believe what they say. But fact is that there are many other powerful techniques for improving the sound in our room, some of which cost nothing (not putting anything in side-wall first reflections), or do far better (better designed speakers, subwoofers, Electronic correction, etc.). If you exclude them as these posters do, then it becomes clear that the intent is what I said: to convince you spend all of your money with them, the audio science be damned.

For an example of what I said, click on the first link in this google search to see an organized debate where I had to give the same answer I gave to Kraut: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awhatsbestforum.com+Audible+Jitter%2Famirm+vs+Ethan+Winer&rlz=1C1SNNT_enUS374US375&oq=site%3Awhatsbestforum.com+Audible+Jitter%2Famirm+vs+Ethan+Winer&aqs=chrome.0.57j58j60l3.10185&sugexp=chrome,mod=8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8. Go to post #4. BTW, that poster later conceded I was right about HDMI jitter being potentially audible and even mentions it in his book.

I suspect you are still unconvinced. Here is the problem and there is no getting around it: when it comes to acoustics, you guys are 100% subjectivists. You are. You never ask for proof using listening tests or any kind of verification. Your guard is completely down. A person therefore can put forward what looks to be technical data and if it jives with your gut feeling, and enough people repeat it on a forum, you believe it. No different than anyone believing in cable differences, amps, etc. Only the subject matter is different.

I realize it is hard to accept that thousands of posts on a forum repeating what you know to be facts isn't. The explanation for that is simple: the industry researchers, of which there are countless with impeccable credentials who oppose them, do not post here. Or any other forum for that matter. They “post” their research in AES and ASA and in industry gatherings. So if your only source of information is reading forums, you only get the one side of the story – one that is devoid of understanding psychoacoustics and real research in the field. It is the version of room acoustics that existed in 1970s. Not what we know now after countless listening tests and research.

I know where you are because I used to be in the same place with the forum as my only source of knowledge in this area. Even when I read research from time to time that conflicted it, I did not want to believe. There was then a defining moment: in a meeting with Dr. Toole, he said that if we emulate the exact same distortion that occurs due to room early reflection *electronically*, i.e. upstream of the speaker, the effect in listening tests is negative. But if we let it happen in the room, it is positive! This seemed like an impossibility and I could not rationalize it at all. How can that be? Distortion is distortion. How could it be different let alone shift from negative to positive?

My first reaction just like you, was to dismiss that as valid even though it came from a person I respected so much and one who clearly knew more than I did. Dr. Toole did not provide a reference to where that research came from. It took fair amount of effort but I found it to be the research from Clark published in his AES paper. I outline it in my article in simpler language in my WSR article on this topic: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/RoomReflections.html

As you see in my article, the reasoning requires a) listening tests and b) knowledge of psychoacoustics. Both of these are absent from any notion put forward by these people. More on this later. Finishing the story, that moment led to me unlearning everything I had read on forums and starting fresh. Instead of reading here, I went and read literally hundreds of research papers. It all started to make sense in a much more integrated and cohesive manner. What sealed it for me was sitting in double blind listening tests, and spending literally days talking and exchanging information with these researchers. At the end, it is a compelling story that hangs together, that has a start and ending, all backed by real research. It doesn't answer everything, but it answers a lot. That answer, unfortunately conflicts with the mass belief on this forum. But that does not deter me. It is what it is as they say smile.gif.

I suspect you are still full of emotions and denial about this. In the movie Matrix, Neo has to take the red pill to snap out of the artificial computer world. For me the red pill was the Clark experiment. Assuming that has not worked for you, how about this simple experiment:


Listen to a loved one talking in the same room to you. I assume we can agree that audio experience represents the ideal: 100% fidelity. You hear them exactly the way you imagine them to sound. If I recorded them and then played it using speakers, it will degrade no matter how good the system. Nothing as real as well, the real thing smile.gif.

Now consider that as you were doing that, neither you or your loved one had your heads in a vice. Without realizing it, you were both moving a few inches relative to each other. But go ahead and test that consciously. Move your head a few inches as you listen to them. I hope you agree that nothing changed as far as your perception. You still heard them with utmost fidelity bettering any audio reproduction system. They sounded as real as you remember them sounding regardless of the movements.


Now let’s see how the acoustic man uses measurements to sell you acoustic material for a problem you did not have: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/room-treatments-calling-ethan-winer-et-al.103148/

He puts forward this graph of what happens when you move a measurement mic four inches in a room:

believe-hf.gif

[Kind note to moderators: the above graph is a “hot link” that the poster provided in the other forum to his company’s web site. Hot or “inline linking” is allowed under US copyright law and hence creates no liability for AVS Forum (indeed there are countless ones already here). Please see the decision in Perfect 10, Inc. v. Amazon.com, Inc. Summary version here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_linking. As you know, Google and other search engines show copyrighted images from every site on the Internet due to this protection. So the poster’s claim that explicit permission is required to hot link to these images is without merit. Of course if you see otherwise, feel free to delete. smile.gif]

He provides this explanation to go with this graph:

” In case you haven't seen the graph below, it shows the response at two locations four inches apart in an untreated room. The responses are so different you'd think they were taken in two different rooms with two different model speakers!

Adding first reflection treatment, which you have, helps reduce the difference a lot. But there's still a big change.”


So we see another example of a measurement being put forward immediately followed by, “go and buy fiberglass to treat it.” What happened to demonstrating that fixing this “problem” was necessary? Read the rest of the posts and you see that sans one person, no one ever questions him. Everyone there, and here, would naturally accept this thesis that there is a problem that needs fixing. The measurement showed it. So no challenge was made for a listening test. No one asked, “my ears don’t work like microphones, not in response or perception. And oh, I have two ears, not one!” The measurements showing “big differences” and the case was made in just two sentences.

Problem is, per the test I had you run, the measurement difference was immaterial. The measurement does NOT correlate with how we hear. Just like what you say about measurement differences between amps, cables, etc. You make the mistaken assumption that just because differences are “big,” that we don’t need to verify their audibility using listening tests. Well, that is wrong and if you did the test I had you do, you would know it first hand.

Here is an extension of the exercise I gave you. Listen to your loved ones in different rooms. I bet they still sound the same as you know them to sound. Yet measurements now show even bigger differences. How is your ear able to “not hear the room” and these acoustic differences? Research and understanding of human hearing system explains it. Think of Haas effect that says reflections in the room are not echoes. That doesn't sound intuitive to you either. But that is one of the most well accepted acoustic principals. You can verify that just the same in realizing you did not hear echo in the voices of your loved ones even though the sound was reflecting/"echoing" around the room.

I know every ounce of your belly still says this can’t be – just like what I felt when I heard the Clark experiment. But please allow the data points to sink in. You don’t have to change your views yet. You just need to re-read everything with a new perspective. That maybe, just maybe, what you know may not be right. Go back and see if these people *ever* produced a listening test to back anything they say. You will find none. Instead you will find them *fighting* that notion. There are “big differences” that show up in measurements they will say. Now you know not to buy that. If the difference is big, and they are such a believer in double blind tests, constantly demanding others to go and run them for cables and such, they should apply the same to their craft. See an example of me trying to get them to go there but they won’t: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425262/are-audio-companies-all-involved-in-a-huge-conspiracy/330#post_22425906.

Reread this response I gave you: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425262/are-audio-companies-all-involved-in-a-huge-conspiracy/600#post_22471972. Reread why their claim that EQ doesn’t work does not hold water: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425262/are-audio-companies-all-involved-in-a-huge-conspiracy/630#post_22478314. If you don’t want to believe me, reread Sanjay’s responses to him. Don’t waste your time with pedantic back and forth as you did in that thread. Please pay attention to who is presenting research paper after research paper, listening test after listening test and who is not.

And oh, I am not at all against acoustic material or companies. We use them in our reference theater and any dedicated space we create. I am against what I have explained above.

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

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post #609 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 11:42 AM
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Back to this overly beaten topic in yet another thread about magic cables? Seriously? Man, I wish you had made a different new years resolution.

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post #610 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Ever since I've had a 1080p PJ with the REON processor, I've always got best results sending the native direct over HDMI. That's despite having technically "better" processors in the chain ahead of it. No idea why, just an observation.

 

Main thing is you have tried the various ways of upscaling and deinterlacing and settled on what works best. A good test disc, properly used, is the best asset in this quest IMO.

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post #611 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post


Houston, we have a problem! Let me review what we are looking at.

No proper listening test confirming actual audibility?

If not, then we are talking about what might easily be an imaginary problem.

Yawn!
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post #612 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 01:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

He puts forward this graph of what happens when you move a measurement mic four inches in a room:
Quote:
” In case you haven't seen the graph below, it shows the response at two locations four inches apart in an untreated room. The responses are so different you'd think they were taken in two different rooms with two different model speakers!
Adding first reflection treatment, which you have, helps reduce the difference a lot. But there's still a big change.”
Another example of amirm misrepresenting someone's writing. rolleyes.gif
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it takes away credibility.
Look who's talking.
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post #613 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 03:01 PM
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So we can measure things we can't even hear, but we can also hear things we can't even measure? You're blowing my mind, man.

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post #614 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 03:09 PM
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but we can also hear things we can't even measure?
Can we see things we cannot measure?

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #615 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 03:11 PM
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Can we see things we cannot measure?

Please clarify: Do you mean things that are objectively there, or do you mean things that are constructs of fevered imagination?

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post #616 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 03:26 PM
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Please clarify: Do you mean things that are objectively there, or do you mean things that are constructs of fevered imagination?
The former, obviously. And I think the word fevered is overly provocative in this context. Plain old imagination is quite sufficient to fool us.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #617 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 03:41 PM
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Oh yes, I forgot that this is in some respects a religious argument. I'll try to be more reverential in the future. biggrin.gif

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post #618 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

... but we can also hear things we can't even measure? You're blowing my mind, man.
Don't they send those folks to have a talk with some doc? wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #619 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 03:55 PM
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I just love that concept that "we can hear that which cannot be measured" from the so called -golden ears.

How many times has it been pointed out that there is no signal that is recorded using ANY sort of media, replayed by some electronic device and then reproduced by the very weakest link in the chain - a speaker that connot be measured?

EVERY signal can most certainly be measured and I defy anyone to prove otherwise as the very concept is a physical impossibility.

Now, your PERCEPTION and mental processing of a sound or group of sounds cannot be measured quite as simply.

Anyone lose a unicorn in here?
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post #620 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 10:02 PM
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It's interesting that some of the all-cables-are-the-same Luddites have seized on the food analogy to make their point. How many have ever done blind taste testing? I guarantee that many of the skeptics here would not fare well if they had to rank food using only taste buds and no other senses. Our senses interact in ways that science still doesn't understand, including the connection between taste and smell. It's also important to note that most of the skeptics have never designed high fidelity audio equipment, while many that are responsible for the creation of this equipment look at all facets, including cabling, to achieve the state of the art. Don't listen to the skeptics, listen to the music, keep an open mind, and draw your own conclusions.
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post #621 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 10:17 PM
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It is not necessary to DESIGN an amplifier or other component to be quite proficient in its use, alignment, testing, repair nd calibrating. many of us herehave long careers in the PROFESSIONAL audio and/or AV world where we can access just about anything we choose. You will find the folks who work with thisgear day and day out know that there some thing a cabale CAN d and some it cannot. Well constructed cable first must reject noise. There are off the shelf cables sold in bulk for less than .50 a foot RETAIL that do that quite well. Second, they must have a minimal DC resistance. Most circumstances are limited to those parameters. Minute variations in capacitance are rarely considered. In the case of high power speaker cables, they look for maximum current transfer, 9large gauge) flexibility and durability under all circumstances. Again, these cables can be readily purchased for about 1.00 a ft or less depending on the quantity.

The wiring INSIDE any component you choose is NOT exotic, expensive , cryogenically treated, or manufactured solely during a full moon and blessed by a Druid.

BTW, most every sound engineering/recording/ field production company uses Neutrik connectors for mic and line level (1.50 ea.) and either Neutrik or Hubbel for high current speaker connections.

It might be a good idea to step back into the real world.
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post #622 of 873 Old 01-06-2013, 11:17 PM
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Best to go to audiogon, audioasylum, audiocircle etc. for questions about cables, high-end amps and DACS. You can a least get opinions from people who use the stuff and not get preached to by "experts" about the error of your ways etc.
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post #623 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Best to go to audiogon, audioasylum, audiocircle etc. for questions about cables, high-end amps and DACS. You can a least get opinions from people who use the stuff and not get preached to by "experts" about the error of your ways etc.

 

That is the problem. You get opinions.

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post #624 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 04:53 AM
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That is the problem. You get opinions.

Hey, we live in a democracy here, the facts are to be determined by popular vote.*












* If you find yourself taking offense to this concept please adjust the flooglegong circuit in your Sarcastometer 3K.

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post #625 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Best to go to audiogon, audioasylum, audiocircle etc. for questions about cables, high-end amps and DACS. You can a least get opinions from people who use the stuff and not get preached to by "experts" about the error of your ways etc.

Everybody has at least one opinion and at last one termination to their digestive system. Many times knowledgeable people can't tell them apart based on the qualities of what comes out of them.

Reading Audiogon, Audioasylum, Audiocircle, etc, can be informative at times and at other times it requires a strong stomach. If you look at high end audio cables as audio jewelry, they can actually makes some sense. But I get buying jewelry for my wife far more than buying it for my stereo or my cats. I guess if you don't have any loved ones or charity then you will have something left over to indulge yourself that way.
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post #626 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 05:09 AM
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It's interesting that some of the all-cables-are-the-same Luddites have seized on the food analogy to make their point. How many have ever done blind taste testing? I guarantee that many of the skeptics here would not fare well if they had to rank food using only taste buds and no other senses. Our senses interact in ways that science still doesn't understand, including the connection between taste and smell. It's also important to note that most of the skeptics have never designed high fidelity audio equipment, while many that are responsible for the creation of this equipment look at all facets, including cabling, to achieve the state of the art. Don't listen to the skeptics, listen to the music, keep an open mind, and draw your own conclusions.

The irony of calling those arguing from a science perspective "Luddites"... rolleyes.gif

And I'd be willing to bet more of the "cables have no audible differences" view holders have designed av gear than the "Unicorn made" cable crowd.
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post #627 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 05:19 AM
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It's interesting that some of the all-cables-are-the-same Luddites have seized on the food analogy to make their point.

This post seems to expose the intellect and character of its author by starting out with name calling.
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How many have ever done blind taste testing?

Actually doing blind testing yourself is not required. Knowing what blind testing says about taste and perception seems sufficient for most. The type of argument that we see here is sometimes called "The straw man". Basically, it can be summarized as arguing that if you don't personally do blind tests of all the food you eat, then you can safely ignore any blind testing of audio gear that has ever been done.

It is a fact that blind testing is widely done in the food industry for the purpose of quality control. It turns out that one of the finest books I've ever read about blind testing was written by the retired brewmaster of Stroh's brewery and others like him. It is a college text that is widely recognized.
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I guarantee that many of the skeptics here would not fare well if they had to rank food using only taste buds and no other senses.

The above is an example argument by means of personal assertion presented as a global truth. Note that the writer is so confident of what he writes that he will not attach his given name to what he writes. Obviously, this is the klnd of person whose opinions you want to follow, an anonymous person who argues to impress people who are poorly informed and swayed by cheap rhetoric.
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Our senses interact in ways that science still doesn't understand, including the connection between taste and smell.

More argumentation by means of personal assertion presented as if it were a global truth. Secondly, it sets for a false standard - the idea that science has to understand everything about the connections between the senses in order to have any useful knowlege at all. This is a bogus argument because Science never claims to know everything and is in fact based on the idea that what it knows is always incomplete and imperfect. All findings of science are provisional until better findings are obtained.

In fact science knows more than enough to figure out whether magic cables actually make a difference in terms of sound quality. What science knows about cables and sound quality is known based on established and generally accepted theory and relatively easy to replicate practical experiments.
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It's also important to note that most of the skeptics have never designed high fidelity audio equipment, while many that are responsible for the creation of this equipment look at all facets, including cabling, to achieve the state of the art.

Note that since the writer is anonymous and has no known CV or resume, we don't know whether or not he meets his own standards for having a relevant opinion on this topic. It is also good to know that thousands of people who have designed audio gear and made high quality recordings do understand the relevance of cable quality to sound quality. That relationship can be quickly given as follows: there is no need to spend a great deal of money on audio cables in order to obtain the highest possible sound quality. This knowledge is embodied in almost all audio production equipment and facilities, for example.
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Don't listen to the skeptics, listen to the music, keep an open mind, and draw your own conclusions.

I agree with the idea of listening to the music and keeping an open mind. I've been down the road of fancy cables and have examined the whole thing from start to finish over a period of decades. I did audio and designed and built audio gear both before and after the advent of high end cables.

Do listen to skeptics and also the true believers. Apply good science and logic to what is said and do reach your own conclusions. In the end obsession with esoteric cables can become a major distraction to just enjoying the music.
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post #628 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 05:34 AM
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Yes no one can tell you what is best for you, too many variables. I agree the high-end cable business is mostly a rip off, to me. It the rich audio enthusiasts out there buying $3K power cords etc. enjoy their purchase, good for them.

All you need to do is realize that audio (music reproduction) is a personal hobby with many different approaches. For example, Just look at the different types of speaker systems. Some only require a low watt tube amp while some perform best with high power amplification.

Some spend most of their listening using a turntable, because they enjoy it more than CD sound. Basic Specs of a expensive turntable rig are not impressive at all even compared to a $98 CD player.

Back to amps again, I almost forgot about the SAE 200 watt amp I owned, the specs were great but it sounded harsh, grainy and the music was a wall of sound, hard to pick out the individual instruments, just a smeared mess, but it would play loud without clipping. It only cost me $300.00, so it was okay for the cost I guess.

I don't enjoy surround sound myself, but never critisized those who spend their money on it. But a guy claims he can hear differences from changing cables he gets multiple science and psychology lectures and worse, insulted and made out a fool.
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post #629 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 05:41 AM
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Yes no one can tell you what is best for you, too many variables.

Is this the voice of confusion, or is this yet another false agument based on the idea that only advice about what is best has any value?

People may say they want the best but reality is that something that is very, very good suffices for all but the obsessively picky. I can't tell you what is best, but many people here give very good advice about what is very, very good.
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Back to amps again, I almost forgot about the SAE 200 watt amp I owned, the specs were great but it sounded harsh, grainy and the music was a wall of sound, hard to pick out the individual instruments, just a smeared mess, but it would play loud without clipping. It only cost me $300.00, so it was okay for the cost I guess.

Word in the business among the old timers is that SAE amps were fragile, but didn't always break completely. Any power amp that has lost half of its output stage sounds like crap, but it still might make noise and sound halfways decent until you crank it up.
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But a guy claims he can hear differences from changing cables he gets multiple science and psychology lectures and worse, insulted and made out a fool.

Those things happen because they represent the best advice available from people who are aware of the true issues.

Believe it or not there are facts in this world. Everything isn't a matter of taste. Restaurants that can't make what most people find to be good tasting food tend to go out of business, even if the owners think their food is good. There is actually a tremendous turn over of businesses in the world of high end audio. If you go to high end audio shows year after year you see an amazing crop of newcomers every year, and some old timers who show up every year with a new company.
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post #630 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

It's interesting that some of the all-cables-are-the-same Luddites have seized on the food analogy to make their point. How many have ever done blind taste testing? I guarantee that many of the skeptics here would not fare well if they had to rank food using only taste buds and no other senses. Our senses interact in ways that science still doesn't understand, including the connection between taste and smell. It's also important to note that most of the skeptics have never designed high fidelity audio equipment, while many that are responsible for the creation of this equipment look at all facets, including cabling, to achieve the state of the art. Don't listen to the skeptics, listen to the music, keep an open mind, and draw your own conclusions.

I don't think many would fare well in a taste test that precluded smell. Ever have sinus issues or a cold?

Anyway, moving on, I must revert back to my earlier days in college when my thinking was being shaped by math and science, then enlisting in the Marines after the bombing in Lebanon in 83. I have gone on the cable principle that once a signal left its source its integrity was downhill from there, my job was to protect the signal the best I could. Mind you this was for analog signals, and yes spent more $ on cables than I should have, money that would have been better spent elsewhere. Yes, I see the errors of my ways. Well, I learn from my mistakes, I learn a lot in these forums, thank you.

So I find myself a little confused, not a bad place to be!

Steve
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