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post #631 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Is this the voice of confusion, or is this yet another false agument based on the idea that only advice about what is best has any value?
People may say they want the best but reality is that something that is very, very good suffices for all but the obsessively picky. I can't tell you what is best, but many people here give very good advice about what is very, very good.
Word in the business among the old timers is that SAE amps were fragile, but didn't always break completely. Any power amp that has lost half of its output stage sounds like crap, but it still might make noise and sound halfways decent until you crank it up.
Those things happen because they represent the best advice available from people who are aware of the true issues.
Believe it or not there are facts in this world. Everything isn't a matter of taste. Restaurants that can't make what most people find to be good tasting food tend to go out of business, even if the owners think their food is good. There is actually a tremendous turn over of businesses in the world of high end audio. If you go to high end audio shows year after year you see an amazing crop of newcomers every year, and some old timers who show up every year with a new company.

What do you expect? High-end audio gear represents a small percentage of sales compared to more affordable gear, and those small companies compete for the sales, only the good survive. Odyssey Audio, the company I bought my amps from, are still going strong, last I checked. A company that offers a good balance of performance to cost.


My SAE was bought new and never broken, I sold it to young man for 100 bucks, he liked it.
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post #632 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Is this the voice of confusion, or is this yet another false agument based on the idea that only advice about what is best has any value?
People may say they want the best but reality is that something that is very, very good suffices for all but the obsessively picky. I can't tell you what is best, but many people here give very good advice about what is very, very good.
Word in the business among the old timers is that SAE amps were fragile, but didn't always break completely. Any power amp that has lost half of its output stage sounds like crap, but it still might make noise and sound halfways decent until you crank it up.
Those things happen because they represent the best advice available from people who are aware of the true issues.
Believe it or not there are facts in this world. Everything isn't a matter of taste. Restaurants that can't make what most people find to be good tasting food tend to go out of business, even if the owners think their food is good. There is actually a tremendous turn over of businesses in the world of high end audio. If you go to high end audio shows year after year you see an amazing crop of newcomers every year, and some old timers who show up every year with a new company.

What do you expect?

Competence and value for money spent.
Quote:
High-end audio gear represents a small percentage of sales compared to more affordable gear, and those small companies compete for the sales, only the good survive.


It's a boutique market and panache and hype count for a lot.
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Odyssey Audio, the company I bought my amps from, are still going strong, last I checked. A company that offers a good balance of performance to cost.

Odyssey offering price/performance? Surely you jest! $1500 for 3x 150 wpc is a bad joke.

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My SAE was bought new and never broken,

Do you have the test bench reports to confirm that?

If not you really don't know.
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I sold it to young man for 100 bucks, he liked it.

Note: that was a big percentage loss that put a bad taste in your mouth that has lasted for what, 20+ years?

You seem to be sure that you are always right, and are willing to overspend to back that up. It is your money. Enjoy! ;-)
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post #633 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Competence and value for money spent.
It's a boutique market and panache and hype count for a lot.
Odyssey offering price/performance? Surely you jest! $1500 for 3x 150 wpc is a bad joke.
Do you have the test bench reports to confirm that?
If not you really don't know.
Note: that was a big percentage loss that put a bad taste in your mouth that has lasted for what, 20+ years?
You seem to be sure that you are always right, and are willing to overspend to back that up. It is your money. Enjoy! ;-)

You think I care I sold an amp for less than I paid? Strange!

Thanks! I will enjoy!
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post #634 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That is the problem. You get opinions.

Hey, we live in a democracy here, the facts are to be determined by popular vote.*












* If you find yourself taking offense to this concept please adjust the flooglegong circuit in your Sarcastometer 3K.

 

:)

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post #635 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

It's interesting that some of the all-cables-are-the-same Luddites have seized on the food analogy to make their point. How many have ever done blind taste testing? Don't listen to the skeptics, listen to the music, keep an open mind, and draw your own conclusions.

I read an interesting piece in a wine magazine a while back, the professional tasters were sampling that years crop of Bordeaux's and someone snuck in a Zinfandel. Suffice to say the latter was the preferred Bordeaux.
You simply can't underestimate the power of the subconscious mind and the ablitiy to pre-program outcomes without even being aware it's happening. There is enough evidence of this to make it fact I believe. But it is so ignored in this argument as to be laughable.
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post #636 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 09:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I agree the high-end cable business is mostly a rip off, to me.
Mostly but not all? You mean there are exceptions? Can you list them?
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post #637 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Listen to a loved one talking in the same room to you. I assume we can agree that audio experience represents the ideal: 100% fidelity. You hear them exactly the way you imagine them to sound. If I recorded them and then played it using speakers, it will degrade no matter how good the system. Nothing as real as well, the real thing.

Bingo, this is where the crux of the matter lies. You focus in on minutia, or tests designed to prove this or that, but this example says it all from my perspective. My general perspective being that I try to look at all things at once, and with most things the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. I find this argument doesn't exactly meet the latter because there's just too many variables.

That's just me, but as to your statement above, listen to that loved one in a completely empty room vs a furnished one and tell me which scenario has better fidelity. Better yet, have two loved ones (as in a pair of speakers) in that empty room and try to carry on a conversation. Every piece of furnishing, drapery or carpeting you add from there enhances dialog clarity, to a point. You can't argue that point.
And as your long diatribes suggest, if you over dampen a room the same thing happens in reverse. There's a "happy place" as far as room treatments are concerned and no-one has argued that point, least of which are the room treatment retailers you have a bug in your butt about. There isn't one that isn't aware of the pitfalls of over-damping a room that I'm aware of.

When my son phones me from 1200 miles away, I can hear him clear as day, and I don't need to tell you the transmission process of that call, or gage of wire being used. Bottom line is my brain does the processing of the sound-waves into recognition of my sons voice, if he was talking through a $10 walky-talky my brain would figure out who he was, probably even if we used a tin can and a string it would fill in the blanks of the lack of fidelity of the transmission vehicle. All without conscious thought, and in your words "in the way you imagine them to sound".


(After re-reading that I should add that I'm referring to the fidelity as far as voice recognition goes in that last part.)
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post #638 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 10:06 AM
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Mostly but not all? You mean there are exceptions? Can you list them?

I mentioned the brand amps I bought years ago and still own today, and one of the pro audio experts from this forum says I overpaid or have been fooled and ripped off. Obvious hate towards high-end companies, for some reason. Why would I say another word about cables?

I think you guys just love bashing anybody that you feel over paid for their audio gear purchases.

This is not a place for anyone to express opinions and experiences, unless of course your gear cost under a certain amount of money I guess?

Anyway, go ahead and bash away. I will ignore this forum from now on.

Cheers!
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post #639 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Mostly but not all? You mean there are exceptions? Can you list them?

I mentioned the brand amps I bought years ago and still own today, and one of the pro audio experts from this forum says I overpaid or have been fooled and ripped off. Obvious hate towards high-end companies, for some reason. Why would I say another word about cables?
 

It's not hate towards 'high end' companies. The point was, the amp maker you mentioned apparently charges $1,500 for a 3 channel, 150 watt unit. That is a lot more money than some other units which will sound exactly the same

 

Just by way of example, Emotiva sell a very well reviewed (and measured) 3 channel, 200 watt amp for $599 - the XPA-3. That is $900 less - money which could be put towards better speakers, a better sub or room treatments, any or all of which will make far more difference to the SQ.

 

That is the whole point of people making the comments they do - it's an attempt to educate people, using the basis of science, in order to help them spend their cash where it will bring the biggest benefits. Nobody is trying to tell people how to spend their money (why would anyone even care?) but there are so many comments in these threads that clearly show that a lot of people really believe that if they spend that extra $900 on an amp, they will get some sort of sonic benefit. Often this is stated as a fact.  

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post #640 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 10:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Why would I say another word about cables?
You said, "high-end cable business is mostly a rip off, to me" so I'm asking you about it. Mostly means not all of them. So which are the exceptions?
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post #641 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 10:42 AM
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Not true, Todd68. Performance is the defining factor here, not whether or not, "your gear cost under a certain amount of money" and if you spend too much, then for that alone, you will be a target for criticism.

If you were to tell us that you spent well over $1K for a receiver which includes Audyssey XT32 or even multiple thousands for even more sophisticated room equalization solutions, nobody here would bat an eye or criticize you for those decisions. Nor would they if you opted to purchase a high quality, multi-five digit dollar figure speaker such as the Revel Salon2's. These are areas which make a real, substantial difference in the quality of your audio experience because the evidence points to it. If you have the budget for that level of audio product, you would receive the support of everyone in this thread. So this is about what's valid vs not valid, irrespective of price.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #642 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 10:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That is $900 less - money which could be put towards better speakers, a better sub or room treatments, any or all of which will make far more difference to the SQ.
That's what amirm is trying to discredit via misrepresentation and distortion because he sells those overpriced amps, preamps and DACs.

This is the perception that amirm is trying to spread:
Quote:
that a lot of people really believe that if they spend that extra $900 on an amp, they will get some sort of sonic benefit. Often this is stated as a fact.  
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post #643 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 11:50 AM
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Right and the consistent argument from that camp is "trust your ears".
I think I make one of the most valid cases for why that isn't reliable and yet responses always shy away from addressing the power of psychoacoustics.

I think the main reason is that's the predominant marketing tool the snake oil vendors use.
The irony is when they try to prove their point they use obfuse metrics, and yet when valid data or science contradict it's back to "trust your ears".
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post #644 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Right and the consistent argument from that camp is "trust your ears".

A sentiment that I agree with 100%. Trouble is that the ears are useless except for the fact that they are connected to the brain which is the most powerful and pervasive organ in the body.

Bias controlled tests address the power of the brain to create mistaken perceptions.

In some sense it is about admitting the possibility of a misperception.

If you are right 100% of the time, obviously you don't need DBTs. ;-)
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post #645 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I think you guys just love bashing anybody that you feel over paid for their audio gear purchases.
This is not a place for anyone to express opinions and experiences, unless of course your gear cost under a certain amount of money I guess?

The retail value of my amps, pre-amp and soucres is well over $20K, and my speakers are about $15k. Now I didn't pay that much, I've been buying low selling high as I moved up the price-points for over 30 years. So I've had a ton of stuff in a variety of price points. If anything that process anchored my position. Were I buying new today I know I could get similar performance with significantly less outlay, and I know where I'd allocate my budget.

When it comes to cost, what I spent may seem astronomical to some, but when you consider there's $100,000 turntables and $250,000 speakers it can also be considered miniscule, it's all about perspective. None of the responses you've received are based on discrediting expenditures of the individual, but rather what the retailers charge and how they "create" the market for those prices.

The trouble is they do a great job of creating that market and your response is proof of that.

An eye-opener for me was back when I had a receiver and bought into the bi-amp & add an external amp rhetoric. I went out and bought some Anthem amps to accomplish this "upgrade". At the time I would have sworn on a stack of bibles that it "lifted the veil off my system", that "the soundstage was more defined", and all the other audio cliches you can think of. There was NO doubt in my mind, none.
Well, when it came time for the next upgrade I sold the amps before the receiver and hooked it back up in the interim. Without any outside influences I realized it sounded exactly the same as it did with the amps.
That was my personal "ah-ha" moment, and when I realized I'm the easiest person for me to fool. wink.gif
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post #646 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

My general perspective being that I try to look at all things at once, and with most things the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.
So what is the middle "truth" between where you are and a person who believes cables make a difference?

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post #647 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

So what is the middle "truth" between where you are and a person who believes cables make a difference?

To quote myself; I find this argument doesn't exactly meet the latter because there's just too many variables.

Why focus on the pre-amble rather than the content of the post?
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post #648 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 02:53 PM
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To quote myself; I find this argument doesn't exactly meet the latter because there's just too many variables.
Why focus on the pre-amble rather than the content of the post?
I thought this was low-hanging fruit. That when the tables are turned, you leave no room for middle ground. It is a black and white thing if the other guy is the subjectivist. When you are the subjectivist, all of a sudden there are variables and the truth is in the middle! smile.gif What stops the cable guy from believing in multiple variables?

So how about the bit about psychoacoustics? That applies to your subjectivitism just the same or it too is only reserved for the other group you are arguing with?

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post #649 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 05:23 PM
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Hey guys..just another video question
I just sold my pre-amp that up converted everything to 1080p no problem..great pic from std def channels.OK I just bought a marantz that has no video processing,just pass thru..and my pic on std def pictures is horrible!
My dish sat box asks what type of TV 480,720p or 1080i
My Sony xbr is 1080p,I have my dish box set to 1080i..my Sony tells me on the TV that all my channels are 1080i?
I tweaked my settings on the TV but can't get a non HD pic to look good,my old pre-pro automatically up converted everything to 1080p and everything looked awesome!..right now I do not know if it is my dish box or the TV up converting..I think I'm taking back the marantz and getting the anthem mrx500 to use pre-pro,it has great upscaling and should up convert everything to 1080p,I'm not sure what the problem is,straight thru video pass thru should be very nice with all channels but..its not
How do I know what is UPconverting my channels now?
Should I put my dish box on 720p instead of 1080i?
Thanks for any input you can give me,cause I know you all have much knowledge! :-)
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post #650 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I thought this was low-hanging fruit. That when the tables are turned, you leave no room for middle ground. It is a black and white thing if the other guy is the subjectivist. When you are the subjectivist, all of a sudden there are variables and the truth is in the middle!

Nope nothing like that at all, it's just your convenient interpretation.

My point was as in reference to room acoustics where there's no one size fits all answer, and the pre-amble was more about how I look at the whole picture at once rather than focus on one component.
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post #651 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 06:16 PM
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So how about the bit about psychoacoustics? That applies to your subjectivitism just the same or it too is only reserved for the other group you are arguing with?

Well if you read my subsequent post you'd see I don't discount that possibility.

But as usual you skirt the usage of it as marketing tool to sell ineffective snake oil products at exorbitant prices, which was my primary point.
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post #652 of 873 Old 01-07-2013, 06:49 PM
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Well if you read my subsequent post you'd see I don't discount that possibility.

But as usual you skirt the usage of it as marketing tool to sell ineffective snake oil products at exorbitant prices, which was my primary point.
Please don't encourage trolling.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #653 of 873 Old 01-08-2013, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

So what is the middle "truth" between where you are and a person who believes cables make a difference?

To quote myself; I find this argument doesn't exactly meet the latter because there's just too many variables.

Why focus on the pre-amble rather than the content of the post?

Some people do have an incredible level of expertise - at quoting out of context ;)

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post #654 of 873 Old 01-08-2013, 05:29 PM
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What was this thread called again?..suggestions for cables has turned into a suggestion for a headache..lol
Anyway I'm still having my video problems,but on a side note I just used audessey for the first time and I definitely am impressed..
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post #655 of 873 Old 01-09-2013, 07:38 AM
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What was this thread called again?..

It's at the top of the page, you may have to scroll up to see it.

Quote:
Anyway I'm still having my video problems,

Why don't you start a thread about it?
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post #656 of 873 Old 01-14-2013, 04:42 PM
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Ummm....everyone on a coffee break?
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post #657 of 873 Old 01-14-2013, 04:51 PM
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I'll play:

Provide a scientifically sound DBT that indicates cables make a difference.

If you can't, stop talking.
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post #658 of 873 Old 01-14-2013, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Ummm....everyone on a coffee break?
I was at CES all week and been catching up. I have a few more things to say. Will see if time permits to do so.

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post #659 of 873 Old 01-15-2013, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I agree the high-end cable business is mostly a rip off, to me.
Mostly but not all? You mean there are exceptions? Can you list them?
It appears that you can the boy out of the high end audio store, but you can't take the high end audio store out of the boy! ;-)
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I thought this was low-hanging fruit.

It is.

I think that there may be high end speakers that might make sense from a price/performance standpoint.

What I do know for sure is that you can't do 120 dB SPL @ 20 Hz with < 10% THD in a decent sized listening room with any single commercial subwoofer system that I know of for any price, and you can't do it yourself without blowing a few $grand.
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post #660 of 873 Old 01-15-2013, 05:21 AM
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Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

I'll play:

Provide a scientifically sound DBT that indicates cables make a difference.

If you can't, stop talking.

I am personally in favor of letting the high end cable promoters have as much rope as they need. ;-)
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