Should I keep my Treble tone setting to "0dB" or bump it a little bit ? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 139 Old 05-15-2013, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

If changing the color value lowered the resolution, would it change your approach?

Cocaine makes a lot of people happy. But what if their were a way to get even higher without the drug?

Yes it would.

But, really, consider my point about the movie theater versus the home. Are you trying to replicate the listening environment at the cineplex? I hope not. That would be a thuggish approach, to most refined listeners around here, I'd bet. And how could you in any modern-sized home? So what is left? Feeding a pure, direct signal to your amp and home speakers and calling it good? Sounds like a generally poor idea to me considering the intended playback venue down at the mall. And it's not like the Blu-rays are re-EQed for home use to any appreciable degree. In the case of the high-res formats, I think they are as true to the theater sound as possible. This is a selling point, even.

I never actually addressed the OP's question. For the record, I am a fan of subtractive EQ, rather than additive. Given enough amp headroom, this is preferable in almost all cases, as far as I am concerned. The reasons I have are a bit complicated and off-topic, so I'll leave it at that.

I'm going to lay back and let other people talk now. But this is an amusing thread. And jim19611961 (and others striving for purity) please be aware that I agree with respect your opinions in principle, despite what may seem like dissent. This is a philosophical debate.
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post #122 of 139 Old 05-15-2013, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MitchFlorida View Post

Most of my TV viewing involves older movies, news , documentaries, tv series, comedies etc. How often do you watch a movie like Mission Impossible or Ironman or SpiderMan where you hear a bomb or explosion behind you and you are supposed to feel like you are right there at the explosion? Very rare, and I don't care for that silly stuff anyway. I also don't like the hassle of constantly switching back and forth from 2 channel to 7 channel and the expense of buying those extra "satellite" speakers, which are usually of inferior quality to the front speakers. And who would want music played through those inferior speakers? For what, so you can feel like you are at the bottom of a well or at rock stadium?

I watch sfx movies and shows almost daily. i'm currently watching Fringe through netflix and on my nights off work i like to watch movies via netflix or hbo or starz on demand. most of this stuff is in 5.1 dolby digital and a lot of it includes explosions. i love my action and scifi movies. i also watch news or documentaries using multi-channel stereo because the voices come out much clearer this way and the multiple speakers help the sound power through the ambiant noise in my house (two young kids...very noisy at times). i also play games when i have time after my kids have gone to bed and some of those use multi-channel setups more completely and dynamically than anything else. my surround sound gets daily use and i wouldnt ever want to go back to less than 5 channels. (Perish the thought)

But even considering all that, there are times when i switch my avr to stereo processing when i'm lisening to music. some songs just sound better that way. all the speakers i have for everything else do not interfere with that decision in the slightest, so i am completely puzzled by your apparent disdain for multi-channel theater setups.

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
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post #123 of 139 Old 05-15-2013, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MitchFlorida View Post

My stereo system is transparent and clear enough that I don't have to compensate for bad treble or bass response. People who have low quality audio equpment have no choice, they must boost either the bass and/or treble settings. I have invested enough money in my audio equipment that I don't need to do that. If you need to, that is fine.

What is interesting here Mitch is that many people are attempting to educate you in this subject, and you simply dismiss them outright. I get the impression that you feel you know enough already, and that you feel (very erroneously) that your dollar signs have bought you the most perfect audio experience you can attain, and that the only effort involved is to get your credit card out & hook the equipment up.

That is only the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.
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post #124 of 139 Old 05-15-2013, 07:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

"I must hear what the mixing engineer intended me to hear" or "there is only one true way to reproduce a CD"
Did someone say those on this forum?
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post #125 of 139 Old 05-15-2013, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by treyrhodes View Post

And jim19611961 (and others striving for purity) please be aware that I agree with respect your opinions in principle, despite what may seem like dissent. This is a philosophical debate.


I wouldn't say I was striving for purity... as we both agree there is no such standard.

Think of it this way. I want value for my money. I have paid for a good set of speakers that have a very smooth and even frequency response. However when I put them in a room, the room changes that frequency response. Some frequencies are made louder and other parts could be as much as 20 or 30dB quieter. That is not what I paid good money for. If however I set them up carefully in my room with close attention to placement, experiment with listening position, experiment with sub integration, experiment with port plugs, experiment with room treatments...and a few other things... the frequency response can begin to look more like the speaker's rather than the room's.

If leave them badly placed in the room and instead use EQ to *fix* the frequency response... I have changed the speaker's natural sound and again is not what I paid good money for.
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post #126 of 139 Old 05-15-2013, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 
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I can make the frequency response look better again with EQ, but I find it degrades sound quality from doing so. I'm not sure if it's the distortion it introduces or the fact you are altering the speaker's natural response. I would rather live with a peak or dip somewhere in the FR and no EQ. But of course I would still prefer a smoother response if I could achieve it with better room placement or treatments.

A simple FR measure is going to show the summation of direct sound from speaker and contribution from all room reflections at the mic location. It is quite possible (and likely) the direct sound from speaker is flatter than measured, with the room "contaminating" the response. Our ears discriminate direction and timing cues as well as frequency and amplitude, thus you may hear the flatter on axis response as, well, flatter than your measurement, and hear the room contribution as any of a number of things that are situation dependent... soundstage widening, or image smearing... spaciousness, or a masking echo... and yes even sometimes timbre shifting, etc.

A simple FR measure with typical omni mic doesn't resolve the additional cues our ears do. Not that this can't all be measured, it just takes the proper tools, planning, time and effort.

All that said, improving the speakers' direct frequency response (anechoic) via EQ can further improve the sound in room. Improving the measured in room response at the listening position via (normal, IIR filter) EQ but worsening direct speaker/anechoic response in the process may well look prettier and sound worse.

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post #127 of 139 Old 05-16-2013, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MitchFlorida View Post

My stereo system is transparent and clear enough that I don't have to compensate for bad treble or bass response. People who have low quality audio equpment have no choice, they must boost either the bass and/or treble settings. I have invested enough money in my audio equipment that I don't need to do that. If you need to, that is fine.

Does your stereo system consist of the psw505 sub or the micropro 3000 sub. I am confused by your recent posts?
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Originally Posted by MitchFlorida View Post

Amazon has the Polk PSW505 on sale for $180. 12 inch, 300 watts continuous 460 peak.

I just received mine and really like it . Of course there are more expensive options.

post #6
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Originally Posted by MitchFlorida View Post

I bet it really bothers you that I have put my audiophile receiver right on top of my 2400 Watt Polk Subwoofer, which is very high end. Check it out.

http://www.polkaudio.com/products/dswmicropro3000


What kind of subwoofer do you have in your system? Is it even close to 2400 Watts?


So far there has been no problem and I don't anticipate any either. I see very little vibration of the cabinet.

post #8

Hint - you don't have to lie to kick it yo wink.gif


Also it appears you have some pretty low end speakers....
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Originally Posted by MitchFlorida View Post

The Polk 75T speakers were on sale for $359 a pair on NewEgg. Very happy with them. The matching subwoofer is the Polk PSW505 for $180. Lots of bang for the buck.

I never had a chance to audition them before ordering online. I just read all the great reviews on Amazon and took the chance. Was not disappointed.


I did notice that Polk keeps changing their logo, so the Polk logo on the sub doesn't match the logo on the Speakers!

post # 18533

...and yet your talk about having spent enough to achieve perfect transparency and clarity. Hint...I know pretty well how much clarity and transparency your speakers are capable of...just check the link in my sig.wink.gif Your speaker are flat out not capable of what you say they are. Have any room treatments to help tame these polks?


I'd like to add that in my opinion your views on multi-channel music and tone controls are misguided...not necessarily with out a certain amount of merit in their foundations, but misguided in the fact the you obviously are a newbie to decent home audio gear and you come hear and act like a know it all and wish to "school" experts on how things should be set up for the proper "audiophile" (or is that audiophool biggrin.gif).

I'd love to see a frequency response graph or other measurements of your room and and gear that shows a reasonably flat frequency response from 20hz to 20khz.. If you don't have a good in room frequency response then guess what you are using the room as a "tone control" likely with peaks in the higher frequencies and nulls in the lower end. With out good room treatments and/or good EQ you are not hearing what the recording engineer and/or artist intended.wink.gif

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #128 of 139 Old 05-16-2013, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I wouldn't say I was striving for purity... as we both agree there is no such standard.

Perhaps fidelity, then.
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post #129 of 139 Old 05-16-2013, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Improving the measured in room response at the listening position via (normal, IIR filter) EQ but worsening direct speaker/anechoic response in the process may well look prettier and sound worse.

Yes, makes sense. This is now why I work on fixing the room, which is actually the problem, rather than altering the sound of perfectly good speakers.
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post #130 of 139 Old 05-16-2013, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

A simple FR measure is going to show the summation of direct sound from speaker and contribution from all room reflections at the mic location. It is quite possible (and likely) the direct sound from speaker is flatter than measured, with the room "contaminating" the response. Our ears discriminate direction and timing cues as well as frequency and amplitude, thus you may hear the flatter on axis response as, well, flatter than your measurement, and hear the room contribution as any of a number of things that are situation dependent... soundstage widening, or image smearing... spaciousness, or a masking echo... and yes even sometimes timbre shifting, etc.

A simple FR measure with typical omni mic doesn't resolve the additional cues our ears do. Not that this can't all be measured, it just takes the proper tools, planning, time and effort.

All that said, improving the speakers' direct frequency response (anechoic) via EQ can further improve the sound in room. Improving the measured in room response at the listening position via (normal, IIR filter) EQ but worsening direct speaker/anechoic response in the process may well look prettier and sound worse.

This is key. The speaker has one response, and the room another. When you EQ, your not changing the room response at all but rather the direct response. Depending on who you read, our brain fuses the first 20-50ms (particularly the first 20ms) of room response together with the direct response to create one picture of the sound we hear. So unless the first 20ms or so of room reflections are muted to at least -20db (-25 to -30db preferably), your never hearing the direct response alone. So in essence, your never hearing just the recording, but the recording blended together with the sound of the room. Thus, the invention if the ISD gap.

In truth, many value the ETC and Waterfall plots as more valuable than the FR as tools to tuning the room.


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post #131 of 139 Old 05-17-2013, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MitchFlorida View Post

Am I the only audiophile who doesn't like to listen to music with 5 speakers? I think 2 front speakers and a subwoofer is the way to go.
After reading this I don't think you know the definition of a real audiophile.
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post #132 of 139 Old 05-17-2013, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MitchFlorida View Post

My stereo system is transparent and clear enough that I don't have to compensate for bad treble or bass response. People who have low quality audio equpment have no choice, they must boost either the bass and/or treble settings. I have invested enough money in my audio equipment that I don't need to do that. If you need to, that is fine.
So we all just buy the same system you have and we won't have to compensate for the room or our hearing.
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post #133 of 139 Old 05-17-2013, 06:46 PM
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im no audiophile so i always find such topics to be hilarious. ive tried tone controls, specifically bass but it covers up the midrange so i stopped using it. I dont know if i should mess with the EQ that was auto done by receiver.
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post #134 of 139 Old 05-17-2013, 06:53 PM
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After reading this I don't think you know the definition of a real audiophile.

I beg to differ. What are your qualifications to be called an audiophile, if you have any?
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post #135 of 139 Old 05-17-2013, 08:37 PM
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Qualifications?

Seriously?

Well, I don't ask others what their qualifications for being an audiophile are for starters. Anyone asking such a question probably isn't one.

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post #136 of 139 Old 05-17-2013, 08:40 PM
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Don't feed the troll....

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post #137 of 139 Old 05-17-2013, 10:45 PM
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I beg to differ. What are your qualifications to be called an audiophile, if you have any?

Can I be your huckleberry?? biggrin.gif

I'm pretty sure my CC is worth more than your whole setup.....just mail me the certificate.

I will proudly display it to all that enter my abode. rolleyes.gif


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post #138 of 139 Old 05-18-2013, 04:23 AM
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I beg to differ. What are your qualifications to be called an audiophile, if you have any?
Is there a test I need to take? Do I get a card if I pass?
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post #139 of 139 Old 06-03-2013, 05:12 AM
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Just a quick update. I also occasionally listen on headphones. Right now I am using the Sennheiser HD-598 model, and I have to admit that I turned up the bass 2 dB. It sounds much better this way, as the bass response on that model is a little weak.

Does this make me a hypocrite or does it prove my point that a better set of Headphones wouldn't need such a boost?


Headphones are a completely different listening experience than speakers. It lets you enjoy your same favorite music in a totally different, if artificial way.
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