7.x, 9.x, 11.x can't decide. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 12-28-2012, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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hello all trying to figure out my audio setup for my theater room. my room is about 13'3" wide and 18' 10" long.

currently i have 2 surround systems (5.1 & 6.1) but planing on making them into one nice system for my theater room. i have plenty of klipsch speakers to make a 11.x system. and it's time for me to upgrade my old reciever once i build my room. would love to have a reciever thats stable to 4ohm. since i want to use my dual center channel speakers from my 6.1 system (my front & rear center) as my main center channel. room will have two rows of seating.

here's my speakers all older Klipsch speakers.

2 - SP-1 - Main Front
2 - KSCC-C1 - Main Center
2 - SS-1 -
2 - KSB 3.1 - Front Pressence
2 - KSB 2.1 -
1 - KSW-100 - Subwoofer
1 - KSW-50 - Subwoofer
1 - Home made 300w 18" subwoofer

as for rear & surround was thinking in-walls bc of size of room or i could use my KSB 2.1 & SS-1. but like i said above can't decide on number of speakers to use or plan for.

receiver didnt know looks like Denon does 9.x

any ideas

thanks in advance
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post #2 of 25 Old 12-28-2012, 05:38 PM
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Dear Jay,

My home theater room is almost exactly the same size as yours. May I just ask a few questions and give a few personal experiences.

First, since it is home theater, what will be the size and source of the screen? I assume that it will be mounted at least three fee off the floor so the speakers are never in the way. And how far from it will be the first row and the second? And how far will they be from the front and side walls?

My speakers are different than yours, but my room is a 6.1 that works perfectly. That doesn’t mean that is your solution. In a room this small, I don’t see the need for two front speakers, if the middle one is powerful enough. If the room was five feet wider and you were able to sit five feet further back it would be a different story. But how far apart will the front speakers be? And I assume the middle speaker will be in the middle.

I have two surround in wall speakers in the rear side wall and an identical speaker in the rear wall in the center, slightly lower.

Now let me tell you why, for this room, I really think that is all that is necessary. When things are working right, on a good Blu Ray movie or a DVD with a good soundtrack, the direction of the speakers all but disappear. It is like I am in a bubble, not a theater. If I wanted a slight improvement, I would put in a second rear speaker, but only because every disc is NOT equalized identically. As I said, when things go right, I don’t need it.

I also found that the room was more pleasing to me, and friends, when I took my wall hanging rear and surround and put them in the walls. They felt it was more of a comfortable place, they were not overwhelmed which is important, the room became more inviting.

Now, I use full range speakers and one sub-woofer. I am not a huge bass person as most people are today. But the full range and the sub really fill the room, although if I could have a sub, in the rear, perhaps on the ceiling, I’d like that. Anywhere else is just too close to the seating? Where would you put the first sub? The second? The third? In a room that size three subs is a lot.

And will you use the room for music (cds and sacds) also?

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post #3 of 25 Old 12-28-2012, 08:54 PM
 
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my room is 12 x 13 and i've heard a solid soundstage from a quadrophonic setup.. but i've done some modifications to the way the air in the room is handled, cleaning things up to allow the soundwaves to do their thing without fighting off standing waves.

9.x and 11.x doesnt have any real discrete audio, they would be copies.
i dont think your room is big enough to rationalize any copied audio channels (unless maybe if your ceiling is larger than 15ft) .

7.x should be plenty.
as i've said before, instead of cleaning up the air to allow the soundwaves to do their thing.. they simply add more physical speakers.
and even if you do modify the air.. the extra physical speakers help simply because the 'directional' sound is louder.
see.. the real good directional sound is almost turned off completely, and instead of turning it on they add more speakers.
but thanks to virtual surround sound in headphones.. after some time goes by, the directional audio has to get an upgrade to satisfy the industry .. and when that happens, people complain about the lack of virtual speakers coming from their 5.1 setup (and they should too).

one speaker in each corner still has the potential .. because all the audio mastering needs to do is fill in the gap between the two speakers.. doesnt matter if it is the two front speakers or front to rear.
and once that gap gets filled in.. there is nothing left to do except move it back and forth with a joystick.
but that brings up how loud it is when the gap gets filled.
not doing anything to help the soundwaves fight off standing waves is going to make the effect less audible (mainly because the soundwaves struggle to come together and form as one).

and that is my reason to ever suggest upgrading from 5.1 to 7.1 or 7.2
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post #4 of 25 Old 12-29-2012, 03:06 AM
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I've got a thread in the DIY construction forum on 11.1, you might want to check that out, link here and in my signature
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1435778/moving-past-7-1-5-1-into-9-1-11-2-upgrading-your-ht-room-via-audyssey-dsx-or-dolby-pl-iiz
This visual from there may help you in planning:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I'm sure many here have built their Dedicated Home Theater to 7.1 (or 5.1) surround sound, did nice job pre-routing the speaker wire's in wall for integrated look, and lived with it for a few years.
Audyssey visual:
dsx_480x335.jpg

This visual from my Denon 4520CI manual, makes it easier to grasp all the 7.1/9.1/11.1 speaker layout.
11.x%2520speaker%2520layout%2520via%2520Denon%2520Manual.JPG

Here is the DTS Neo:X™ visual:
DTS_NeoX_.JPG

My room is similar to yours, but wider, 18.5 ft long x 14.5 ft wide x 8.75 ft high.
I also "echo" (pun intended) these thoughts, before going past 7.x, make sure you've done your acoustic treatment planning and installation to judge "are you missing something"?
As been stated here, for HT set-up this is the items you consider in order, so many people skip item 3, I don't know why.
1. Speaker location, 2. Listener position, 3. Acoustic treatments, 4. Electronic correction.

For me and my 7.1 to 11.1 reason, with my acoustic treatments honestly I have a great sound stage, no holes, and the sound does have 3D sense to it.
But, well it's a hobby thing also for me, and I have just enough width for wides, even then I'm going to better integrate them into my side wall.
Honestly your room will be the challenge for wides, unless you integrate them into the wall so they don't intrude into walk space.

Here is my install progress about 2 weeks ago.
I've got the heights mounted, the wides wires routed and they are sitting on the bar stools still as temp solution, not sure on final method for them.
I'm sidetracked just now with my multiple subwoofer upgrade.
Once that is underway them I'll integrate these bookshelf speakers into the side walls, and re-do my side wall acoustic treatments at same times; everything is a system, you need to consider that viewpoint - acoustic measurements are a must to guide you.
IMG_3623.jpg
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post #5 of 25 Old 12-29-2012, 05:14 AM
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You need a really big open room to do 11 channels. Anything under 2500 cu ft, 7 channels do just fine.
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post #6 of 25 Old 12-29-2012, 08:00 AM
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Since the available software (recordings, soundtracks...) are almost always 5.1, anything beyond that is just a bunch of synthesized glop.

I would suggest that you will get the best sound if you get 5 excellent speakers and put the money into that rather than creating an acoustic mess with too many mediocre speakers and too little attention to fine-tuning the critical 5 that really reproduce the original recorded sound as intended.

The best-sounding high-quality systems I have ever heard are 5.1 or 5.2.

The Cambridge Audio 551R is the best-sounding receiver I have ever heard. You might want to read the Home Theater review done on it recently.
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post #7 of 25 Old 12-29-2012, 08:29 AM
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I recently spoke to the vice president of a famous Hi Fi company who explained to me that 5.1 is really the standard. He said that system with 2 front speakers, or speakers in the rear get their sound from the 5.1 and process it for the extra speakers in much the same way the systems did it before we had discrete 5.1 and surround sound was derived from a stereo, two channel system.

That said, I have a room 14 by 18.5. Originally, I had a five channel system, where I used a three channel amp for the surrounds and the center channel. When I got a more powerful amp and speakers for the center channel to match the two other front speakers, I tried a center channel in the back.

I then got the “wow” factor. I can only go by my experience, but I have told all my friends to get a six channel, a sixth MATCHING speaker for the rear center. It’s great. I remember watching Lord of the Rings and being totally impressed with the rear channel. The same in Superman (The opening scene where the villains are sent to the Phantom zone.) If you ahv ehe speakers, I would do that.

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post #8 of 25 Old 12-29-2012, 08:52 AM
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There is a large and growing volume of Blu-ray Discs with 7.1 native content. Blu-raystats shows 347 movies available. There are also concert videos available in 7.1. http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php

IF you have the room, 7.1 is worth pursuing, particularly with an AVR utilizing one of the better room EQ solutions like Audessey XT32. The Cambridge unit does not offer an automated EQ solution, something to be aware of.
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post #9 of 25 Old 12-29-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

There is a large and growing volume of Blu-ray Discs with 7.1 native content. Blu-raystats shows 347 movies available. There are also concert videos available in 7.1. http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php
IF you have the room, 7.1 is worth pursuing, particularly with an AVR utilizing one of the better room EQ solutions like Audessey XT32. The Cambridge unit does not offer an automated EQ solution, something to be aware of.

I do agree with Commsysman that the most important thing would be a strong 5 channel system first as the main priority. I don't agree though that anything above 5 channels is "glop". No matter how supposedly good the CA receiver is it isn't going to over come a bad room acoustic wise. It just lacks to many modern features for this so called "music first" glop these boutique brands push on us. I guess its just a way to stand out in the crowd of bang for the buck feature packed receivers from the main stream popular brands.

I've had heights and wides (not at same time) and they do add a little bit of expanded soundstage but not worth sacificing a good solid 5.1/5.2/5.4 setup. My opinion a great 5 channel setup first, followed by good multiple subwoofers 2+, and then add the secon set of surrounds later.
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post #10 of 25 Old 12-29-2012, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the replies i'm reading through them while i'm at work in-between customers. here is a basic layout of what i was looking at for my room



this picture isn't 100% correct since i plan on having the 2nd row seating away from wall. i took a older picture and changed the dimentions . but you get basic idea of what i have planed.

a couple quick add-ons for my post ceiling is 8' tall and was thinking my riser will be bewteen 7"-14" tall. (maybe more depending on what you all think)


here is again a older picture of what i was thinking if i did a 9.x or 11.x room. this is main wall



if i remember corectly screen is 130" (using a projector which i have yet to buy). i would have just under 2' on either side of screen. about 1' above screen and i think 1' 6" to 2' below screen


from what i'm seeing might as well forget the 11.X layout and focus more on 7.X and maybe 9.X....


nice thing with my room is even though i only have 8' celings there is nothing above me execpt for atic space. so if need be i could make room taller but that would be down road bc of $$$ witgh having to re-structer things.
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post #11 of 25 Old 01-11-2013, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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after figuring some things out i'm running into a issue. if i did a 11.x system the Front Wide Left will be too close to my rear deck door and my Rear Back Surround will be in my doorway to my kitchen. looks like i have have to do in-ceiling speakers for Rear Back Surround. and maybe same for Front Wide ..just bc if i did In-wall i have a feeling my curtains will block them out.

any sugestions?
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post #12 of 25 Old 01-11-2013, 02:13 PM
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For rear surrounds in ceiling speakers would work ok, for wides or heights I wouldn't waste the time cutting into the walls to add ceiling speakers. Wides and heights should be firing toward you not from the ceiling to floor. Its already tough to even tell the wides or heights is even doing anything, putting them into the ceiling would make them pretty much worthless and wasting amp power.
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post #13 of 25 Old 01-11-2013, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydogg25 View Post

after figuring some things out i'm running into a issue. if i did a 11.x system the Front Wide Left will be too close to my rear deck door and my Rear Back Surround will be in my doorway to my kitchen. looks like i have have to do in-ceiling speakers for Rear Back Surround. and maybe same for Front Wide ..just bc if i did In-wall i have a feeling my curtains will block them out.

any sugestions?

In my opinion:

Wides aren't needed in a room that size, I would remove them and move the L/R channels farther apart, they are pretty close at the moment and I can't see them giving that great of a L/R separation in those positions. You also don't really have the vertical space for height speakers to have much effect. I'd stick with 6/7.1

As far as the rear back surround. The room is narrow enough that in my opinion you can use a single diffuse speaker middle rear. Its far better than split rears in the wrong place or, in my opinion, a ceiling mounted speaker. (example)
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post #14 of 25 Old 01-11-2013, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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in a couple things been messing with i did move my L & R further apart. probably about 4'+ from center of screen.. and yea i was thinking of ignoring the front wides. a set of speakers i already own is some old klipsch surrounds.



maybe use them on side of room for surrounds. and then some speakers hanging from ceiling. for back since no good place for anything else my options are limited..... idk been a looong time since messed w/ in ceiling speakers and always been scared of them
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post #15 of 25 Old 01-11-2013, 04:56 PM
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Personally I think you've got to make a bit a of a choice, and it isn't always an easy one:

1) Make the system acoustically as ideal as it can be.

2) Make the system 'impressive'. Saying you've got a 11.2 system just strokes the ego more than saying you have a 6.1 and having speakers everywhere looks 'cool'.

I'm not trying to be insulting in any way here, it is a hard choice to make. I'm sure you have friends as I do that aren't impressed by 'acoustics' but by numbers. But, at the end of the day, you've got to decide what is more important to you and then optimize the other as much as you can within the constraints. Without making, and being confident in, the choice, you can talk yourself in circles for hours to no benefit.
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post #16 of 25 Old 01-12-2013, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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i know your not insulting. i have a 6.1 system in room i'm changing to my theater room. i would like to Make the system acoustically as ideal. though with the speakers i already own i can do a 9.x system and forget Front wide speakers.

was looking @ my speakers i have all Klipsch.. my smaller bookshelf speakers i have i'm able to mount to wall or ceiling. ..... in doing so i'm pretty sure i can get in the range of angle seperation i need for the speakers.

wanted to do @ least 7.x system. if not 9.x ....want it to sound great for movies & Music.

i'll try to work on another room pic while @ work (if i can) and post it to see what you think.
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post #17 of 25 Old 01-12-2013, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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here's a couple fast ones i did @ work between customers....



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post #18 of 25 Old 01-12-2013, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydogg25 View Post

I would move the Side speakers slightly forward, as close to the edge of the door as possible, to improve rear-vs-side separation in the surround field. If you're going to use 2 pairs of surrounds, why place both pairs rearward of the main listening position?

While the placement of your Front speakers is fine, I would mount the Heights on the side walls, just on the other side of the door (mount them as close to the ceiling as possible). This will give you a better sense of "height": i.e., sounds coming from above rather than merely a taller front soundstage.

Sanjay
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post #19 of 25 Old 01-15-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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ok thanks for the idea. lookinbg into placing them on side... just need to figure out my black out curtains for that door. i dont want curtains to interfer w/ speaker placement. i've read mixed on rear side and back speaker heights. some say want to mount close to ear level while others say have 2-3 feet + above. for back i have no choice but to mount high, close to ceiling, to avoid opening to kitchen but my rear side speakers i can mount anywhere.
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post #20 of 25 Old 01-16-2013, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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anyone have a idea for a nice quality wall/ceiling mount for speakers.

my rear's are about 8lbs and have mounting on back for bracket. now my front highs are bigger. they are about 9.5 x 9.5 x 17" and probably weigh about 20lbs or a little more.. saw some speaker "clamps" but they worry me a little..now looks like you can screw speaker to bracket (not big fan about that). but still worried on quality bc like everyone else would hate for speakers to either fall off bracket or bracket break.

didn't know if i should try to make something myself to hold front highs. though would be a little fun w/ them @ a downword angle & size. but would rather be safe than sorry.

just call me over worried..lol
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post #21 of 25 Old 01-25-2013, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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hmm was reading some more....am i wasting my time trying to use both my center channels as a single center? i saw alot of negitive about doing that. i'm not trying to make it a "stereo" center just a "longer" center since my screen will be about 9 1/2' wide. i know the DB gain is ~3db but i just had (2) of the same centers from my old 6.1 system i was going to use
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post #22 of 25 Old 01-25-2013, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydogg25 View Post

hmm was reading some more....am i wasting my time trying to use both my center channels as a single center? i saw alot of negitive about doing that. i'm not trying to make it a "stereo" center just a "longer" center since my screen will be about 9 1/2' wide. i know the DB gain is ~3db but i just had (2) of the same centers from my old 6.1 system i was going to use

Try it both ways. With both speakers and then with 1 center speaker. If what you are going for is more db, then I don't see a problem with using two. Especially if you separate them a little and allow for a wider dispersion of the high frequencies to widen the "sweet spot"

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
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post #23 of 25 Old 01-25-2013, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydogg25 View Post

anyone have a idea for a nice quality wall/ceiling mount for speakers.

my rear's are about 8lbs and have mounting on back for bracket. now my front highs are bigger. they are about 9.5 x 9.5 x 17" and probably weigh about 20lbs or a little more.. saw some speaker "clamps" but they worry me a little..now looks like you can screw speaker to bracket (not big fan about that). but still worried on quality bc like everyone else would hate for speakers to either fall off bracket or bracket break.

didn't know if i should try to make something myself to hold front highs. though would be a little fun w/ them @ a downword angle & size. but would rather be safe than sorry.

just call me over worried..lol

The Vogels BEK100 Speaker Brackets I used are rock solid strong/stable!
I actually picked up a 2nd pair from ebay in Dec-2012 for my family room main R/L.
If you can't find those, then the other ones I posted might be what you are looking for,
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1435778/moving-past-7-1-5-1-into-9-1-11-2-upgrading-your-ht-room-via-audyssey-dsx-or-dolby-pl-iiz/60#post_22675701
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

My Denon 4520CI is installed and in the basement HT, now it's speaker/bracket mounting time!

I had (2) pair of these Vogels BEK100 Speaker Brackets, bought 12+ years ago and never used.
They are rated for 25kg/55lbs, and are robust.


They are very strong, black steel, and can easily support my 17lb Mini-monitors.
http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/bookshelf/paradigm/monitor-series-7/mini-monitor

Will need to make some extension wood bracket to project these past my side wall acoustic panels, that is tomorrow morning project.
Being that they are mounted from the back they will present a clean look.

If I did not own the Vogels BEK100's, I'd be looking at some of the offerings out there that project bookshelf speakers out from the wall and tilt/rotate.
What I saw on Parts Express or cruchfield did not grab me as robust though for bookshelf speakers in the 20lb range.

Something like these from ebay, would need to do some math for 35 degree tilt down - it's probasbly sufficient, I'd rather have 45 tilt down just for safety.
My only issue with these is you'd be able to see the brkt hardware....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Pack-Lot-Steel-Large-Bookshelf-Speaker-Side-Clamping-Wall-Mount-Brackets-Black-/310403424581#vi-content
Quote:
Item specifics
DESCRIPTION
This side clamping bookshelf speaker wall mount has been designed for traditional wood cabinet bookshelf style speakers or powered monitor speakers that did not come with a standard mounting point by the manufacturer or have amplifiers on the back. This mount offers 90 degree swivel both left and right, as well as 35 degrees of tilt. This speaker mount is ideal for mounting your professional bookshelf speakers in your home theater, sports bar, studio, etc.
Quantity: 4
Use this bracket to mount your large bookshelf speakers in your home theater, sports bar, studio, patio, and more.
Solid steel construction
Provides a stable and durable mounting solution for large bookshelf speakers
Side Clamping: will work with speakers from 5” to 11” wide
Optional screw holes on the side clamps for added stabilization of large wood speakers (not required)
Swivels 90 degree left and right
Wall Mounting Plate: 9.5” x 5” (H x W)
Measures 16” from wall to end of the mount
Load Capacity: 44 lbs
Color: Black
Mounting hardware included
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post #24 of 25 Old 01-26-2013, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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i agree i'm not a huge fan of seeing the hardware, but when i was doing some looking @ work it was main ones i was finding that could handle some weight. i'm going to check into your 1st brackets you listed. looks very nice

i've almost got my room cleared out. so i can start building. tryiin to decide when to pull carpet. thinking of pulling before i start building after i finish some touch up painting

going to try to take some pictures this weekend and post them of my room so you can see what i'm working with and some issues i have to deal with
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post #25 of 25 Old 01-27-2013, 07:23 PM
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Hi guys. I actually used a pair of flat screen TV mounts to add my height channel speakers. They needed to attach to a side wall and enable me to tilt the speakers downward. I had one that I bought from monoprice for a TV that I never used, so I bought a second one. Here's the link. http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=108&cp_id=10828&cs_id=1082806&p_id=6514&seq=1&format=2

Says it will hold 30 lbs. which is more than most speaker mounts. Came with mounting hardware to atach to the walls. I just used wood screws to mount to the back of the speaker enclosures.

I'm finding that I'm smarter than I thought, but dumber than I need to be.
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