Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 133 - AVS Forum
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post #3961 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

You are completely missing the point. We are not trying to calculate the noise floor.

When the REW SPL meter is active, and the attached USB mic is properly calibrated, the REW meter should show a steady value of approximately 50dB (in a quiet environment, of course). It should NEVER read 9dB, as PDX reported.

That's why it might be helpful to look at the noise floor in detail. There might be hum or other noise which is easily spotted on a RTA.
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post #3962 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

That's why it might be helpful to look at the noise floor in detail. There might be hum or other noise which is easily spotted on a RTA.

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post #3963 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Back to parametric EQ. These filters introduce their own ringing. If it matches exactly the ringing of the room response, modal decay will indeed be shorter. It has to be shown that this is how it works in most cases. I've yet to see proof for that. In my experience the opposite is true. While peaks are flattened, the ringing is still the same but at a lower absolute level. These two aspects improve the perceived sound quality considerably. Nevertheless, modal decay time isn't reduced. Only absorption (passive or active) can do that.
You have to measure this right. Otherwise it is easy to arrive at all kinds of conclusions from it not doing anything to what you say. There is a precise set of steps you need to follow to get there from measuring the noise floor first to setting the graph parameters in REW. If you do that, you get results like this when a single EQ is applied at 53 Hz:

i-z7Cg55m-L.png

The brown is without that single EQ, the green with. See how the frequency response was flattened at that point and the time domain improvement came with the ride. While the post-EQ ringing dies into the noise floor, the brown, non-EQ keeps going.

So that you don't think that was a unique example, here is a second filter applied to the same set up at 140 Hz:

i-mx9kCLx-L.png

Once more the filter improved the frequency response and shortened the effective ringing in time domain. Let's add even more filters:

i-tfbz347-L.png

See how it consistently does that? And this is all with casual selection of filter parameters by eye for a quick analysis.

As I show in that article, here is what happens with that single 53 Hz filter when graph settings are wrong:

i-CMvw5RB-XL.png

Now it appears that we have only fixed the frequency response and not "time." Obviously we have done both per other graphs I showed above. The key difference is proper configuration and knowing what is being displayed.

You can read the full detail and how to set up REW properly by clicking on the first link in this google search: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awhatsbestforum.com+time+frequency+amirm&rlz=1C1SNNT_enUS374US375&oq=site%3Awhatsbestforum.com+time+frequency+amirm&aqs=chrome.0.57j58&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

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post #3964 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 11:39 AM
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I agree, it's kind of pointless to examine modal decay in measurements that are too noisy. So what's your point?

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post #3965 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 11:39 AM
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Gentlemen, we seem to have gone astray. PDX's mic shows a reading of 9dB when it should show a reading of 50dB. This indicates something is wrong, either a conflict in the computer, or a mic problem. Why the discussion of noise floor? Methods of determining the noise floor have been discussed earlier, and, AFAIK, are reasonably well understood.
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post #3966 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

If you output a 0dBFS signal on a reference level calibrated AVR and your master volume is set to -11dB then it should produce an SPL of 105dB-11dB=94dB at the main listening position.

OK, now I understand. Since I am reasonably sure that my AVR is properly calibrated, I suspect the SPL may be giving an improper reading. It is over 20 years old and, like a comfortable slipper, I would hate to replace it. Let me see if I can validate its readings.
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post #3967 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Gentlemen, we seem to have gone astray. PDX's mic shows a reading of 9dB when it should show a reading of 50dB. This indicates something is wrong, either a conflict in the computer, or a mic problem. Why the discussion of noise floor? Methods of determining the noise floor have been discussed earlier, and, AFAIK, are reasonably well understood.

If the levels are suddenly jumping from -9 to -50db, then the RTA may give clues to whats changing. Comparing the -9 and the -50db RTA's should be useful.

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post #3968 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Gentlemen, we seem to have gone astray. PDX's mic shows a reading of 9dB when it should show a reading of 50dB. This indicates something is wrong, either a conflict in the computer, or a mic problem. Why the discussion of noise floor? Methods of determining the noise floor have been discussed earlier, and, AFAIK, are reasonably well understood.
I was responding to a different topic: the anti-mode review that was posted and the statement that fixing frequency response does not improve time domain. Noise was a factor there but the reference to it was unrelated to the problem PDX may be having. I never see anyone talk about determining the precise noise floor and configuring REW correctly when looking at waterfalls in this thread but maybe I have missed it smile.gif.

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post #3969 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I never see anyone talk about determining the precise noise floor and configuring REW correctly when looking at waterfalls in this thread but maybe I have missed it smile.gif.

Yes you've missed it:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/2850#post_23329824
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/2910#post_23351321

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post #3970 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I suspect the SPL may be giving an improper reading.

...or the signal you're sending from REW isn't 0dBFS wink.gif

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post #3971 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 01:06 PM
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Then I don't know why you still think time domain improvements don't come with parametric EQ. As I showed, they clearly do if you also optimize the rest of the settings.

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post #3972 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

OK, now I understand. Since I am reasonably sure that my AVR is properly calibrated, I suspect the SPL may be giving an improper reading. It is over 20 years old and, like a comfortable slipper, I would hate to replace it. Let me see if I can validate its readings.

You can add the sens data to your cal files from Herb. This should make the UMIK-1 an accurate SPL meter via REW.

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post #3973 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 01:50 PM
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FWIW, I believe my Waterfalls before and after an Audyssey XT32 calibration show a significant improvement in the ringing at 30Hz (a length room mode in my space):

 

 

 

Keep in mind that these graphs are shown with a 40dB noise floor.  If I raise my floor to the more observed 50dB with the UMM-6 USB mic then the improvement seems even more pronounced:

 

 

 

 

Also keep in mind that these measurements are taken in a completely untreated room.  I suppose improvements in the time domain as a result of Audyssey could be significantly less dramatic in a treated room BICBW?

 

For ease of comparison in the frequency domain, here's the FR plots as well:

 

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post #3974 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 02:25 PM
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^ Your post-Audyssey freq response looks pretty good!

 

I can barely tell any difference with my waterfalls:

 

 

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post #3975 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 02:25 PM
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You can add the sens data to your cal files from Herb. This should make the UMIK-1 an accurate SPL meter via REW.

 

Instructions, please.

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post #3976 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 02:26 PM
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...or the signal you're sending from REW isn't 0dBFS wink.gif

 

Yes, I'll try and check both, Markus.  Thanks.

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post #3977 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 02:32 PM
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Instructions, please.

On you mic there is a serial number. Go to the minidsp site and enter that number into the box (you'll see it) and up will come the stock cal files for your mic. Grab the entire top line and copy it. Open up your cal files from Herb (right click and 'open with' word pad) and insert the copied line into the top line of the cal file. Save. Done.

The line from the dsp website looks like this, and I was told to enter the entire line, including the serial number. "Sens Factor =-6.5783dB, SERNO: 7000xx"

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post #3978 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 02:44 PM
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On you mic there is a serial number. Go to the minidsp site and enter that number into the box (you'll see it) and up will come the stock cal files for your mic. Grab the entire top line and copy it. Open up your cal files from Herb (right click and 'open with' word pad) and insert the copied line into the top line of the cal file. Save. Done.

The line from the dsp website looks like this, and I was told to enter the entire line, including the serial number. "Sens Factor =-6.5783dB, SERNO: 7000xx"

Perfect, thanks!

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post #3979 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

FWIW, I believe my Waterfalls before and after an Audyssey XT32 calibration show a significant improvement in the ringing at 30Hz (a length room mode in my space):

 

 

 

Also keep in mind that these measurements are taken in a completely untreated room.  I suppose improvements in the time domain as a result of Audyssey could be significantly less dramatic in a treated room BICBW?

 

 

 

 

The main difference is that post-EQ you have lopped 10dB of the overall frequency peak, so this is bound to have a knock-on effect in the time domain, as you are seeing in the waterfalls. Audyssey can’t really correct in the time domain - the improvement you see is a result of the improvement in the frequency domain - a byproduct if you will.  If, post-EQ, you are putting a lot less energy into the room, it makes sense that the energy that contributed to the ringing in the first place is also reduced.

 

All of the improvements Audyssey makes are significantly less in a well-treated room because there is less to do to begin with.

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Then I don't know why you still think time domain improvements don't come with parametric EQ. As I showed, they clearly do if you also optimize the rest of the settings.

Your graphs don't clearly show shorter ringing. Adjust them so the magnitude for the equalized and unequalized case is the same. Now look at the decay. Is it different?

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Having read the user manual for the AntiMode 2.0 Dual Core, I think I am tempted to buy one to try it. It is not cheap (about $1,000 here in the UK) but reading the user manual is revelatory wrt to what bass EQ really should permit the user to do. To see what I mean, download the manual from the AntiMode website and check out the Advanced options. The unit goes so much further than either Audyssey XT32 or Audyssey Pro in what it permits the user to do. It even allows you to measure the results!  Although we all have REW for that if course. 

 

Worth checking out IMO. 

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Perfect, thanks!

You bet!

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^ In place of Audyssey?  eek.gif   Say it isn't so!

 

I barely dare to even think it, Jerry :)  But download the user manual and have a read... it seems to be what I hoped Pro would be. I’d be interested in your opinion.

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Your graphs don't clearly show shorter ringing. Adjust them so the magnitude for the equalized and unequalized case is the same. Now look at the decay. Is it different?

Here's a case where PEQ did reduce modal decay:



Anti-Mode 8033 by the way.

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Here's a case where PEQ did reduce modal decay:



Anti-Mode 8033 by the way.

Is that decay reduced via features of the anti mode, a side from the PEQ features.

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The 8033 uses single PEQs to reduce peaks.

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post #3988 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Audyssey can’t really correct in the time domain - the improvement you see is a result of the improvement in the frequency domain - a byproduct if you will.

Let me rephrase that... Audyssey can't really correct in frequency domain (it is a FIR filter after all, i.e. correcting impulse response with every tap representing point in time) - the improvements you see is a result of the improvement in the time domain - a byproduct if you will wink.gif

And really - the frequency response is only one of the projections of time-domain. Another is a group delay or phase-response if you wish.
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post #3989 of 12288 Old 07-09-2013, 06:30 PM
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I am using a Mac Book Pro with HDMi and I read that I need to download this file:  ASIO4ALL

 

This is a PC file so I am not sure if I need it?

 

Also would DIRAC Live be useful to have and avoid having to measure the room?

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post #3990 of 12288 Old 07-10-2013, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^ In place of Audyssey?  eek.gif   Say it isn't so!

 

I barely dare to even think it, Jerry :)  But download the user manual and have a read... it seems to be what I hoped Pro would be. I’d be interested in your opinion.

 

Not Jerry but I did read the Advanced Calibration section of the manual and agree that it is intriguing.  Not having used Pro before, I can't compare the two but I've read plenty in the Pro thread as I was considering purchasing it in the past and I can see why you said what you did about being what you hoped Pro would be.  I'm glad I invested the time (and money) into learning REW first as I've had the luxury of learning from your own progression wrt Audyssey Pro kit, OM kit, room treatments, Behringer, and now possibly the AntiMode 2.0! wink.gif

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