Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 145 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Speaking of which, is ASIO4ALL beta still being maintained?

AFAICT, ASIO4All was developed by some hacker, so I don't think there is any support at all. It may be working perfectly fine for the original developer, so there might be no incentive to make any changes. BTW, I have not seen any acknowledgement or discussion of the "wierd noise" over on the HTS forum.

I think we are all interested in your Dirac project, especially if it is successful. And, of course, we are all on the edge of our seats waiting for the September arrival!
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post


I'm sorry, I deleted the measurements performed with 2 sweeps since the ones with a single sweep were clearly better. To clarify, I wasn't talking about the forest of fine dips that are present in any unsmoothed measurements. The dips caused by using two sweeps were visible with 1/6th octave smoothing.

Are you talking about the "number of sweeps" setting in the "make a measurement" dialog? The more sweeps the better signal to noise ratio gets. If you see a huge difference between a single sweep measurement and multiple sweeps then there's probably something wrong and you should check configuration, levels, noise floor.

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Old 08-09-2013, 04:52 PM
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Is this a reflection or the primary sound? The delay after initial sound is ~500uS or half a mS on the most offensive peak after the initial impulse but is it part of the initial impulse or a reflection?





How does that ETC Look?
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:03 PM
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The objective that we have been using is to have all reflections -20dB within the first 20ms.  HST, your reflections seem to be quite well controlled, with only several around 10ms that exceed the -20dB goal, but not by much.  When posting ETC graphs, you might consider using the following agreed-upon settings:

 

 

This results in a slightly easier to read graph, like this one:

 

 

Edit:  It is hard to say what that very early reflection is.  It is either very close to the mic, or very close to the speaker.  If you look at the ETC I posted above, I have a lot of "noise" very close to the original sound which I haven't been able to identify.

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Old 08-09-2013, 05:31 PM
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Thanks AJ,

Yeah it looks to be a 6" longer pathlength, I'm thinking its a reflection off my chair headrest?.... I had a thin blanket draped over it but we know that aint doin much except taking off the top frequencies

Heres the adjusted graph.

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Old 08-09-2013, 05:42 PM
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I don't see any issues in the graph. Of course, you should measure left, right, and center individually to make sure each speaker's reflections have been addressed.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:44 PM
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Thanks a lot!

I just got my new LCRs installed, I'll work on the L and R this weekend.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

One would expect the response curves for both AVR's to be similar if the DSP is turned off.

I wouldn't have bet on it though -- I could see how different electronics could color the result. I was expecting minor differences, not two curves that are practically identical.
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The real test is how well the two different room correction technologies compensate for issues with the listening room. Do you plan on testing this out?

This was also tested. Here's the result of the Yamaha 1030's YPAO (flat setting):



This is Audyssey MultEQ XT on the Marantz 6007, also flat setting:



And here are both corrected curves on the same graph:



I'm not familiar with room correction above the sub frequencies. I would have thought the correction would have a bigger impact overall. I'm no expert but we thought Audyssey did a better job than YPAO, both before and after looking at those plots.
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Are you talking about the "number of sweeps" setting in the "make a measurement" dialog? The more sweeps the better signal to noise ratio gets. If you see a huge difference between a single sweep measurement and multiple sweeps then there's probably something wrong and you should check configuration, levels, noise floor.

Yes -- and improving SNR was my goal initially by using two or more sweeps. Here's an example of another test I did in my own home that clearly feature the regular dips (starting at 800 Hz) even with 1/6th octave smoothing. Similar dips were present at my friend's yesterday, and in other occasions before. A single sweep eliminates those dips, at least using 1M points.


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Old 08-09-2013, 08:07 PM
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I think the Audyssey correction looks better, especially in the 400-800Hz range, and also 60-100Hz. There seems to be an issue in the low end around 40-60Hz that neither system can correct. Any idea what is going on there?

Edit: It has been discussed in the Audyssey thread--MultEQ XT focuses more of its resources in the modal region, leaving the upper frequencies relatively unchanged. Many believe that this is the correct emphasis.
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Here's an example of another test I did in my own home that clearly feature the regular dips (starting at 800 Hz) even with 1/6th octave smoothing. Similar dips were present at my friend's yesterday, and in other occasions before. A single sweep eliminates those dips, at least using 1M points.

Please get in contact with John Mulcahy. Might be a bug.

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Old 08-10-2013, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post



Here are two FR performed with the left channel, same listening position (center, a bit to the right), with each AVR with YPAO and Audissey disabled:

One would expect the response curves for both AVR's to be similar if the DSP is turned off. The real test is how well the two different room correction technologies compensate for issues with the listening room. Do you plan on testing this out?

 

That would be interesting. I am given to understand that YPAO isn't all that brilliant, but this may be just an Audyssey prejudice of mine.

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Old 08-10-2013, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Speaking of which, is ASIO4ALL beta still being maintained?

AFAICT, ASIO4All was developed by some hacker, so I don't think there is any support at all. It may be working perfectly fine for the original developer, so there might be no incentive to make any changes. BTW, I have not seen any acknowledgement or discussion of the "wierd noise" over on the HTS forum.

I think we are all interested in your Dirac project, especially if it is successful. And, of course, we are all on the edge of our seats waiting for the September arrival!

 

+1. (Literally)

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Old 08-10-2013, 03:43 PM
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Anyone in the Chgo land area that could bring rew over? I have tried and tried and get get the hang of it. I just need to see my freq sweep

Thx

Scott
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Old 08-10-2013, 04:32 PM
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Anyone in the Chgo land area that could bring rew over? I have tried and tried and get get the hang of it. I just need to see my freq sweep

Thx

Scott

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Old 08-10-2013, 05:11 PM
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I am up in Highland Park. I am thinking of going Audessey Pro, but I want to see where I am at first

Scott
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Old 08-10-2013, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I think the Audyssey correction looks better, especially in the 400-800Hz range, and also 60-100Hz. There seems to be an issue in the low end around 40-60Hz that neither system can correct. Any idea what is going on there?

Edit: It has been discussed in the Audyssey thread--MultEQ XT focuses more of its resources in the modal region, leaving the upper frequencies relatively unchanged. Many believe that this is the correct emphasis.

Well it's clear to me that the Audyssey result is definitely flatter. I think YPAO has a limited number of PEQs to achieve EQ, and perhaps it works at a much cruder resolution. YPAO also seems to over-correct (for example, at 1kHz, it inflicts a huge cut that is not entirely necessary).

As for the bass, I didn't have time to explore what was going on. My friend is crossing his mains at 40 Hz so most of what we see is not from the sub. Audyssey manages to cut some of the excess response below 100 Hz but does nothing below 60 Hz. Speaking with my friend, it seems he may have blocked his backward reflex port (the backward ports are associated with the mids driver in his speakers -- the woofer reflex port is front-facing), and it is unclear if he did so before or after calibration with each unit. So I wouldn't dwell to much on the results in the bass region.

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Please get in contact with John Mulcahy. Might be a bug.

I guess he's the REW developer? Is he an AVS user or should I contact him through HTS? The "About" section in REW only lists REW's URL. Anyway I think I should test with the latest version to be sure the problem is still there first.

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Old 08-10-2013, 05:32 PM
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John visits AVS occasionally, but the best way to seek advice on the problem you are observing is to post it on the HTS site.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:08 PM
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I am up in Highland Park. I am thinking of going Audessey Pro, but I want to see where I am at first

Scott

I'm up that way occasionally, but live downtown. I'd try to troubleshoot here first, since that way you'll be in better shape to access what Audyssey and Audyssey Pro can do for you. But if you still need help maybe I can swing that way Labor Day weekend.

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Old 08-10-2013, 07:41 PM
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I have been trying to make XTZ work for about two weeks and unable to! In addition XTZ never respond to email! May be they are all on vacation frown.gif

I am ready to buy a microphone and try REW I hope the support is better?
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Old 08-10-2013, 08:32 PM
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Well, XTZ is a purchased product.  REW, on the other hand, is free, and has no official support organization.  You should be able to get up and running using the guide in this thread, and the help of the thread participants.  And, of course, the Home Theater Shack REW forum.

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Old 08-10-2013, 09:37 PM
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Might as well try the mic that came with XTZ. REW works well with other USB mics, it might work with the one you already have.

And it's free, after all.


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Old 08-11-2013, 07:21 AM
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I read the tutorial PDF file and got REW set up with my new Umik-1, but I am a bit confused still, it tells me my tests are too low. I know this is a totally n00b question, but what do I set the volume on my Onkyo 818 at for the test? I thought I read to set it at -20db. Is that why its telling me my tests are too low volume? Am I supposed to run the test with the volume at Ref?
Also REW runs off Java, is it ok for me to update to the latest Java? I had just installed an SSD and formatted my laptop, then installed REW so it only has the version of Java that came with REW which is an older version that what is available now.

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Old 08-11-2013, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
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Well, XTZ is a purchased product.  REW, on the other hand, is free, and has no official support organization.  You should be able to get up and running using the guide in this thread, and the help of the thread participants.  And, of course, the Home Theater Shack REW forum.

Yes fortunately, I did not buy it a friend loaned it to me so I could try!
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Old 08-11-2013, 08:37 AM
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I read the tutorial PDF file and got REW set up with my new Umik-1, but I am a bit confused still, it tells me my tests are too low. I know this is a totally n00b question, but what do I set the volume on my Onkyo 818 at for the test? I thought I read to set it at -20db. Is that why its telling me my tests are too low volume? Am I supposed to run the test with the volume at Ref?
Also REW runs off Java, is it ok for me to update to the latest Java? I had just installed an SSD and formatted my laptop, then installed REW so it only has the version of Java that came with REW which is an older version that what is available now.

Regardless of the fact that the UMIK-1 should not need to be calibrated, I would follow the mic calibration steps anyway. First check that the Windows Audio input device level is at 100. Then run the REW mic calibration. On my system, also with the same mic, my AVR master volume level is set to -12 to achieve a 90dB reading on the REW SPL meter, with a 103-105dB maximum headroom. When calibrating the mic, make sure Audyssey and DEQ are both turned off.

While it wouldn't hurt anything to upgrade to the latest Java, and is probably a good idea from a vulnerability standpoint, it is not absolutely necessary if REW is working.
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:22 PM
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Questions on shapes of rooms regarding good sound.
Is there a general consensus of shapes of rooms that generate the best bass response? For example if you we're building a home and were deciding on the dimensions of your room what is the ratio of dimensions you would choose. Basically I have heard a general rectangle is best is all.

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Old 08-11-2013, 07:15 PM
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Questions on shapes of rooms regarding good sound.
Is there a general consensus of shapes of rooms that generate the best bass response? For example if you we're building a home and were deciding on the dimensions of your room what is the ratio of dimensions you would choose. Basically I have heard a general rectangle is best is all.

You might be interested in this video by Earl Geddes. It's mostly about multiple subwoofers in rooms, but he also talks about the properties of rooms themselves. That video has the first six minutes cut off due to technical difficulties with the video equipment, so there's a bit of missing information. You can fill in the missing info by reading the beginning of the PowerPoint presentation associated with the video before viewing the video itself. I don't remember if he specifically mentions this in the video, but he has in the past mentioned the need to avoid square rooms.
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Old 08-11-2013, 08:04 PM
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Do an Internet search for "optimal dimensions for audio room" and you will get a number of links that point you to a wealth of research on this topic.
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Old 08-11-2013, 08:11 PM
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Is there a general consensus of shapes of rooms that generate the best bass response?
Don't know about any particular shape being "best", but rectangles are probably easiest to work with (easiest = most predictable).
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For example if you we're building a home and were deciding on the dimensions of your room what is the ratio of dimensions you would choose.
I would try to choose dimensions that didn't have length and width modes overlapping below, say, 300Hz. Theoretically, square rooms would be the worst offenders (ALL the length and width modes would overlap). In reality, subwoofer placement can ameliorate much of that (square rooms aren't the hopeless cases many people believe them to be).

As for specific ratios... At the risk of linking to another forum, this thread on room ratios is well worth a read.

Sanjay
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post

You might be interested in this video by Earl Geddes. It's mostly about multiple subwoofers in rooms, but he also talks about the properties of rooms themselves. That video has the first six minutes cut off due to technical difficulties with the video equipment, so there's a bit of missing information. You can fill in the missing info by reading the beginning of the PowerPoint presentation associated with the video before viewing the video itself. I don't remember if he specifically mentions this in the video, but he has in the past mentioned the need to avoid square rooms.

Awesome! Thanks! Mostly I, in the future, when I build/customize a room I wish to do so smaller simply for getting the most out of my subs in the infrasonic region.
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Do an Internet search for "optimal dimensions for audio room" and you will get a number of links that point you to a wealth of research on this topic.

Thanks Jerry
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I would try to choose dimensions that didn't have length and width modes overlapping below, say, 300Hz. Theoretically, square rooms would be the worst offenders (ALL the length and width modes would overlap). In reality, subwoofer placement can ameliorate much of that (square rooms aren't the hopeless cases many people believe them to be).

As for specific ratios... At the risk of linking to another forum, this thread on room ratios is well worth a read.

Thanks for the input! Again my main concern is building a room for a couple of amazing ID subs and getting the most out of them. And boosting the infrasonic into the single digits for movies! Yes I am one of those eek.gif You know a room with an open side or a large room prob won't get there without a bunch of subs.

One sliver of thought in this is as I follow this thread and see elsewhere is that a lot seem to have that 60hz -ish null. I was thinking if I have the ability to tailor the shape of my room to avoid the things this thread is all about correcting then I would do it. Yes, I tied it back in:)

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Old 08-12-2013, 06:01 AM
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Questions on shapes of rooms regarding good sound.
Is there a general consensus of shapes of rooms that generate the best bass response? For example if you we're building a home and were deciding on the dimensions of your room what is the ratio of dimensions you would choose. Basically I have heard a general rectangle is best is all.

Read this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1187319/new-construction-home-theater-room-sizes-and-construction-techniques
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