Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 154 - AVS Forum
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post #4591 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
 

 

On a side, can we all agree that HDMI is probably the most ill-conceived connector known to mankind?! :rolleyes:

 

You were spared the French invention known as SCART which plagued Europe for many years. It was as bad as HDMI but approximately 50 times bigger.

 

Shown here with some phono jacks for scale:

 

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post #4592 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 09:42 AM
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OK, I am still struggling with my recent MLP move two feet towards the front wall.  The current issue is that dialog intelligibility has taken a nose-dive.  With MV set to 15, the effect sounds from the other speakers are noticeably louder than the dialog from the center.  My Denon 4520 has a Dialog Enhancer setting, but I would prefer to address the root cause, no apply a Band-Aid.

 

I think the measurements reveal what is causing the problem.  First, as is my normal practice, I looked at the Center channel with Audyssey on, smoothed to 1/6:

 

 

Looking at the range of frequencies important to dialog (100Hz-1000Hz), everything looks reasonable.  However, looking at an un-smoothed graph (Audyssey still on) shows some narrow but deep dips at 230Hz and 400Hz:

 

 

No, looking at the measurement with Audyssey off, and comparing it with the last calibration before moving the MLP, shows some serious issues from 200Hz to 500Hz:

 

 

 

Comparing current with Audyssey on to the previous calibration, also Audyssey on, shows that Audyssey is unable to fix the dip at ~250Hz.

 

 

 

 

Opinions, please.  Do you think the Audyssey-corrected center channel response shown in the last graph is the root cause for the dialog intelligibility?  How would you fix the issue--move the MLP back to where it was?

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post #4593 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

OK, I am still struggling with my recent MLP move two feet towards the front wall.  The current issue is that dialog intelligibility has taken a nose-dive.  With MV set to 15, the effect sounds from the other speakers are noticeably louder than the dialog from the center.  My Denon 4520 has a Dialog Enhancer setting, but I would prefer to address the root cause, no apply a Band-Aid.

 

I think the measurements reveal what is causing the problem.  First, as is my normal practice, I looked at the Center channel with Audyssey on, smoothed to 1/6:

 

 

Looking at the range of frequencies important to dialog (100Hz-1000Hz), everything looks reasonable.  However, looking at an un-smoothed graph (Audyssey still on) shows some narrow but deep dips at 230Hz and 400Hz:

 

 

No, looking at the measurement with Audyssey off, and comparing it with the last calibration before moving the MLP, shows some serious issues from 200Hz to 500Hz:

 

 

 

Comparing current with Audyssey on to the previous calibration, also Audyssey on, shows that Audyssey is unable to fix the dip at ~250Hz.

 

 

 

 

Opinions, please.  Do you think the Audyssey-corrected center channel response shown in the last graph is the root cause for the dialog intelligibility?  How would you fix the issue--move the MLP back to where it was?

 

This is most odd, Jerry, and must be *very* frustrating. I would have thought those deep, but narrow, dips would have been inaudible. Also, we are told by the experts that 1/3rd smoothing most resembles what our ears hear, so the smoothed graph you show first should be fine. 

 

Sorry I have nothing constructive to add other than moral support - it is amazing that moving the MLP 2 feet forwards would cause these problems, but clearly it has. I will be interested in what Sanjay has to say.

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post #4594 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 10:15 AM
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I agree with Ketih on the unsmoothed dips being inaudible.  How do your first reflection points compare to the ones prior to changing the MLP and have you checked your ETC's in this range for unusual spikes?  Could it be that your room treatments need some further tweaking?  Sorry, I'm guessing you've tried all of this already but figured I would mention it for others that might be following along?! :confused:

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post #4595 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
 

I agree with Ketih on the unsmoothed dips being inaudible.  How do your first reflection points compare to the ones prior to changing the MLP and have you checked your ETC's in this range for unusual spikes?  Could it be that your room treatments need some further tweaking?  Sorry, I'm guessing you've tried all of this already but figured I would mention it for others that might be following along?! :confused:

 

 

I don't observe any material differences in the reflections.  I measured several points forward and backward from the current MLP, and moving the MLP 9" backwards seems to provide a smoother response.  I may go ahead and try this and re-run the Audyssey calibration.

 

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post #4596 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
 

I agree with Ketih on the unsmoothed dips being inaudible.  How do your first reflection points compare to the ones prior to changing the MLP and have you checked your ETC's in this range for unusual spikes?  Could it be that your room treatments need some further tweaking?  Sorry, I'm guessing you've tried all of this already but figured I would mention it for others that might be following along?! :confused:

 

 

I don't observe any material differences in the reflections.

 

Yeah, I figured as much.  This seems to be a relatively controversial subject anyway (i.e. whether or not reflections actually improve or worsen dialog intelligibility).  I've recently noticed a difference in my setup as well but I've committed the cardinal sin by changing furniture in the room and not updating my Audyssey calibration! :eek:  Hopefully, I don't experience similar issues to what you're having now; although, I do plan on experimenting with a tigher cluster for my XT32 cal as there seems to be some merit to doing so.

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post #4597 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
 

 

On a side, can we all agree that HDMI is probably the most ill-conceived connector known to mankind?! :rolleyes:

 

You were spared the French invention known as SCART which plagued Europe for many years. It was as bad as HDMI but approximately 50 times bigger.

 

Shown here with some phono jacks for scale:

 

 

Ah, but you forget that I did spend 3 yrs living in Europe at a time when flat screens were reserved solely for the affluent! ;)  My girlfriend at the time had a SCART TV and I actually purchased this exact cable to connect the tv to a receiver.

 

HST, I actually lugged my 40" Mits (CRT) across the pond and used a PAL <--> NTSC converter to watch broadcast television!  Needless to say that when I left Europe in 2006, the TV stayed behind (managed to sell it to a guy that was old school and not buying into the more expensive plasmas and first LCD's showing up in the European market!). Ex-pats never had it so good with the likes of flat screen tvs that readily output both formats now, nevermind the plethora of material available to download online or via streaming!  Kids these days...haha.

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post #4598 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


I don't observe any material differences in the reflections.  I measured several points forward and backward from the current MLP, and moving the MLP 9" backwards seems to provide a smoother response.  I may go ahead and try this and re-run the Audyssey calibration.



I know so little at this point that I'm hesitant to even ask a question, but did you perhaps check to see if raising or lowering the mic made any impact on the dips? I don't know what you're room is like, but ceiling treatments seem to be less common than wall treatments. Just a thought.

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post #4599 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 12:33 PM
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Jerry, will look at your measurements when I have a moment and see if I can find anything worthwhile to offer.

Meanwhile, a couple of solutions to your HDMI cable problem:

As per Joe's recommendation, 30 foot Redmere ultra-slim HDMI cable from Monoprice:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10255&cs_id=1025506&p_id=9430&seq=1&format=2

Lower priced alternative, HDMI extender via cat5e or cat6. Small matchbox sized sender and receiver with 8" HDMI cable. You connect them using cat5e/6 cables of whatever length you want (up to 98 feet). Cat5e/6 cables are cheap, so if you end up needing to change lengths in the future, you don't have to buy a longer HDMI cable.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8121&seq=1&format=2

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post #4600 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I know so little at this point that I'm hesitant to even ask a question, but did you perhaps check to see if raising or lowering the mic made any impact on the dips?
That is literally the first question I asked Jerry when looking at his measurement a couple days ago. Microphone height has stayed the same as before.

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post #4601 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
 

 

On a side, can we all agree that HDMI is probably the most ill-conceived connector known to mankind?! :rolleyes:

 

You were spared the French invention known as SCART which plagued Europe for many years. It was as bad as HDMI but approximately 50 times bigger.

 

Shown here with some phono jacks for scale:

 

 

Ah, but you forget that I did spend 3 yrs living in Europe at a time when flat screens were reserved solely for the affluent! ;)  My girlfriend at the time had a SCART TV and I actually purchased this exact cable to connect the tv to a receiver.

 

HST, I actually lugged my 40" Mits (CRT) across the pond and used a PAL <--> NTSC converter to watch broadcast television!  Needless to say that when I left Europe in 2006, the TV stayed behind (managed to sell it to a guy that was old school and not buying into the more expensive plasmas and first LCD's showing up in the European market!). Ex-pats never had it so good with the likes of flat screen tvs that readily output both formats now, nevermind the plethora of material available to download online or via streaming!  Kids these days...haha.

 

I did indeed forget that you'd lived in Europe. :) You must admit that SCART was more of an abomination even than HDMI...

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post #4602 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

That is literally the first question I asked Jerry when looking at his measurement a couple days ago. Microphone height has stayed the same as before.

I may be missing your point, but I was wondering if the reflections off the ceiling/floor may be causing dips in the response at the new position 2' closer.

My thought was that moving the mic up or down (at the new position closer to the screen) might shed some light on whether or not he's dealing with an issue related to reflections from the ceiling or floor as opposed to reflections from the walls.

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post #4603 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post


I know so little at this point that I'm hesitant to even ask a question, but did you perhaps check to see if raising or lowering the mic made any impact on the dips? I don't know what you're room is like, but ceiling treatments seem to be less common than wall treatments. Just a thought.

 

That is a perfectly reasonable question, but I pay close attention that the mic stays at 35" for each measurement.  I have moved everything back 9" and am in the process of re-running Audyssey Pro calibration right now.  I'll have a result later this afternoon.

 

One of the benefits of being retired is that I have plenty of time to waste on this hobby.  Not like you working stiffs who spend the entire workday on the internet.  ;)

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post #4604 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 01:04 PM
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I may be missing your point, but I was wondering if the reflections off the ceiling/floor may be causing dips in the response at the new position 2' closer.

My thought was that moving the mic up or down (at the new position closer to the screen) might shed some light on whether or not he's dealing with an issue related to reflections from the ceiling or floor as opposed to reflections from the walls.

 

 

OK, I understand your question now.  I already have ceiling treatments, so I am not concerned about ceiling (or floor) reflections.  Besides, I am not sure reflections play a role in the issue I have been experiencing with muted dialog.

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post #4605 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 01:05 PM
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One of the benefits of being retired is that I have plenty of time to waste on this hobby.  Not like you working stiffs who spend the entire workday on the internet.  ;)

 

LOL :D:D:D:D  That made me laugh out loud.

 

Good luck with the repositioning of the MLP - look forward to your report.

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post #4606 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 03:40 PM
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My problem is more serious that I originally thought.  After finishing a complete Pro calibration, I checked the results.  The center trim was +8, when it normally is +/1 .5.  I ran the speaker test tones, and the center speaker volume is definitely low.  Placing my ear close to the four drivers, I verified all four are working.  The cable looks good.  I then built a temporary speaker cable, unhooked the center channel from the XPA-3, and plugged it directly into the unused center channel amp on the Denon.  Voila!  The center channel level is back to normal.

 

I ran a quick Consumer-level calibration and verified the center channel trim is normal.  I'm too tired now to do any further trouble-shooting, so I'll just run on the consumer-level calibration for now.

 

This may well have been the root cause of my dialog issues.  I may have spent a lot of time today moving things around, re-adjusting toe-ins, etc., all for nothing.  Such is the joy of our hobby.  And if my Emotiva has a bad channel, that isn't going to be fun either.  On the plus side, those consumer-level calibrations are really fast, aren't they?

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post #4607 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 04:51 PM
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Here's the $1M question:

I got an UMIK-1 with HDMI, how do I compare my existing surround speaker with the new Pioneer SB21 I just bought @ Walmart?

I'd like to play audio through WinAmp and place the microphone near the speaker, maybe 6" away. How can I play and measure @ the same time? How would you guys tackle this?

Thanks!

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post #4608 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 05:07 PM
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,
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Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

Here's the $1M question:

I got an UMIK-1 with HDMI, how do I compare my existing surround speaker with the new Pioneer SB21 I just bought @ Walmart?

I'd like to play audio through WinAmp and place the microphone near the speaker, maybe 6" away. How can I play and measure @ the same time? How would you guys tackle this?

Thanks!

Measure the response of the current speaker. Disconnect it, hook up the new speaker, and measure it.

This sounds too simple. What am I missing?
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post #4609 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

My problem is more serious that I originally thought.  After finishing a complete Pro calibration, I checked the results.  The center trim was +8, when it normally is +/1 .5.  I ran the speaker test tones, and the center speaker volume is definitely low.  Placing my ear close to the four drivers, I verified all four are working.  The cable looks good.  I then built a temporary speaker cable, unhooked the center channel from the XPA-3, and plugged it directly into the unused center channel amp on the Denon.  Voila!  The center channel level is back to normal.

 

I ran a quick Consumer-level calibration and verified the center channel trim is normal.  I'm too tired now to do any further trouble-shooting, so I'll just run on the consumer-level calibration for now.

 

This may well have been the root cause of my dialog issues.  I may have spent a lot of time today moving things around, re-adjusting toe-ins, etc., all for nothing.  Such is the joy of our hobby.  And if my Emotiva has a bad channel, that isn't going to be fun either.  On the plus side, those consumer-level calibrations are really fast, aren't they?

 

I feel for you buddy. All that moving things around and changing things ands measuring... The good news, if it can be called that, is that you have isolated the problem. It seems that you may well have to soon discover how efficient Emotiva's warranty repair service is. It's a pity they won't supply parts to customers in the USA so you could get the amp module swapped out locally, or even do it yourself. Emotiva will send spares for us customers in far-flung corners of the world so in some ways it would be easier for me to sort out a problem like this than for you. I wish you good luck with it - and it also shows the wisdom of using an AVR as a prepro - at least your system will not be down as you can use the internal amps while the XPA-3 is away.

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post #4610 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
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,Measure the response of the current speaker. Disconnect it, hook up the new speaker, and measure it.

This sounds too simple. What am I missing?

Cool, will do. What SPL level should I be aiming for? I have an Mastech MS6700 SPL meter. Do I set the AVR's volume so that the meter reads 75db and then measure?

Also, the UMIK-1 appears to be measuring 3-4db higher than the reading with the meter (set to Slow-C). Am I doing it right? Damn I'm a total noob when it comes to measuring...

EDIT: Here's a measurement:



Set xover to 40, turned subs off in receiver, measured 6" away from speaker, mic pointing directly @ speaker (should I aim at the ceiling?)

So the cheapass onkyo surround is 'better' than the pio? Am i reading this correctly?

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post #4611 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 06:39 PM
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Ah, much better, pointed the mic @ the ceiling, totally different graph:


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post #4612 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 08:01 PM
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My problem is more serious that I originally thought. 

I am completely confused now. I took the new speaker cable that has been plugged into the Denon center channel, and plugged it into the Emotiva center channel. The center channel level stayed good. So, since the only thing in the signal path that hasn't been swapped out is the original speaker cable going from the Emotiva to the center channel speaker (a 10-gauge Bluejeans cable). So, I hooked up the original cable, thinking I would have finally found the issue, and guess what? This time, the old cable worked just fine.

Now I have no clue what is going on. Talk about a totally bad day. And I was going to spend the day calibrating my new flat panel, which would have been way more fun.
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post #4613 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 08:08 PM
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Ah, much better, pointed the mic @ the ceiling, totally different graph:


I'm really not sure what you are trying to prove here. It would be very unlikely that you could accurately measure two speakers in the way you are trying to without having some minor variations, either in mic placement, speaker orientation, or the interaction between the speaker and the room.

If you really want to assess which of two speakers is the better one, and assuming you have two of each type of speaker, I would temporarily hook up the speakers as the front left and right speakers. Then I would listen to some content in Stereo, either music or a movie, and sit back and listen to the speakers. Which speakers sound better to your ears?

REW measurements, aren't going to tell you anything useful. Speakers are judged by their timbre, dynamic response, and other qualitative things that REW simply cannot capture.
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post #4614 of 11059 Old 09-12-2013, 08:28 PM
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I'm really not sure what you are trying to prove here.

Nothing really, was just trying to see if I can gauge old vs new measurement-wise.
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REW measurements, aren't going to tell you anything useful. Speakers are judged by their timbre, dynamic response, and other qualitative things that REW simply cannot capture.

Agreed.

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post #4615 of 11059 Old 09-13-2013, 04:47 AM
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I'm really not sure what you are trying to prove here.

Nothing really, was just trying to see if I can gauge old vs new measurement-wise.
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REW measurements, aren't going to tell you anything useful. Speakers are judged by their timbre, dynamic response, and other qualitative things that REW simply cannot capture.

Agreed.
Did you say you took the measurements from 6" (6 INCHES) away from the speaker? That's not correct.

You can get a ballpark idea of each speakers frequency response by taking several REW measurements at different mic locations scattered around the MLP and viewing them along with the average of all the measurements for each speaker (be sure to place each speaker in the same spot when preparing to do that speaker's round of measurements).

This will give you a general idea of the frequency response for each speaker, i.e. it will show up simple things like does speaker A rolloff above 10kHz? Does speaker B exhibit a consistent dip at 2400Hz where the tweeter crosses over to the midrange etc.

Another test you can do if you're concerned with THX Reference levels is a compression test. Leaving the mic in the same spot at the MLP, run a 75db sweep, followed by an 85db sweep, then a 95db sweep, then reduce the increments to 5db or less as you increase the sweep levels towards 105db. View each sweep after it's made and compare the graph to the previous sweeps at lower levels. The traces should look identical, but however many db higher. IMPORTANT NOTE: if any trace looks dissimilar to the one before it, STOP. You've found the level where your system is compressing.

Be warned, the compression test can get very loud. Ear protection is a good idea. Also, be very careful conducting a compression test as it's all too easy to blow drivers, and if you choose to attempt this test, I'm not responsible for any damage you may do to your own equipment.

To start with, you can calculate a general assessment of whether your speakers are even capable of coming near THX Reference levels in the following manner:
- Determine your MLP's distance to your speakers and convert it to meters (eg. 10ft =~3m).
- Determine the speaker's sensitivity (eg. 89db/w/m)
- Determine the speakers maximum power handling

For the example above, plug the speaker sensitivity (89db/w/m) and desired SPL levels (105db) at the desired distance (3m) into this calculator and set 'Amplifier Headroom' to '0':
http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

In the above example, it would take at least 358 watts to produce the 105db that THX Reference calls for at the MLP. If your speakers are only rated for 200watts, they aren't up to producing THX Reference levels at 10' away. Likewise if you're powering them with a 100wpc receiver. If the speakers have a maximum SPL rating of 110db, they won't be able to do it either.

In general, you can assume a 6db drop for each doubling of distance, i.e. an 89db/w/m speaker produces 89db at 1m with 1 watt of power. At 2m, the SPL will be about 83db. At 4m, 77db.

It takes double the wattage to produce a 3db increase, i.e. 2 watts gets you 92db at the speaker. 10x the power for a 10db increase, i.e. to get 99db at the speaker, you need 10 watts. 100 watts gets you 109db at the speaker from an 89db/w/m speaker.

At a listening distance of 3m/10 feet, you need about 114.5db at 1m from the speaker. With an 89db/w/m speaker, that's a 25.5db increase which takes ~358 watts. If you start out with a high sensitivity speaker, say 101db. You only need a 14db increase which only takes about 22 watts.


Max
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post #4616 of 11059 Old 09-13-2013, 04:59 AM
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My problem is more serious that I originally thought. 

I am completely confused now. I took the new speaker cable that has been plugged into the Denon center channel, and plugged it into the Emotiva center channel. The center channel level stayed good. So, since the only thing in the signal path that hasn't been swapped out is the original speaker cable going from the Emotiva to the center channel speaker (a 10-gauge Bluejeans cable). So, I hooked up the original cable, thinking I would have finally found the issue, and guess what? This time, the old cable worked just fine.

Now I have no clue what is going on. Talk about a totally bad day. And I was going to spend the day calibrating my new flat panel, which would have been way more fun.

 

When calibrating a display is classed as 'way more fun' you are definitely having a bad day, Jerry :) 

 

Curiouser and curiouser isn’t it?  Good news that the XPA-3 seems to be fine though. The original BJ cable was 'clean' I assume - no oxidisation at the connector?  Sometimes, if this is the case, then simply disconnecting and reconnecting can 'cure' a problem. 

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post #4617 of 11059 Old 09-13-2013, 05:18 AM
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All the cables look pristine.  While you are correct, simply disconnecting and re-connecting cables can clear up issues, time will tell if that is the root cause this time.  I have to admit, I have never seen a loose or defective cable cause an 8-10dB loss in output, but I guess it could happen.  In the meantime, I think it would be wise to run with the consumer calibration for several days to see if the problem returns.  A Pro calibration takes long enough to complete that I am not anxious to have to discard another one.

 

I actually received a clue during the Pro calibration that something was wrong.  When the first sweep sent the chirp to the center channel, it had to increase the level and re-measure.  At the time, I thought it was perhaps because the speaker was in a slightly different position and didn't pay much attention.  Subsequent chirps sounded normal, of course, because the level had been raised.  The resulting trim of -8 was a real surprise.

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post #4618 of 11059 Old 09-13-2013, 05:31 AM
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All the cables look pristine.  While you are correct, simply disconnecting and re-connecting cables can clear up issues, time will tell if that is the root cause this time.  I have to admit, I have never seen a loose or defective cable cause an 8-10dB loss in output, but I guess it could happen.  In the meantime, I think it would be wise to run with the consumer calibration for several days to see if the problem returns.  A Pro calibration takes long enough to complete that I am not anxious to have to discard another one.

I actually received a clue during the Pro calibration that something was wrong.  When the first sweep sent the chirp to the center channel, it had to increase the level and re-measure.  At the time, I thought it was perhaps because the speaker was in a slightly different position and didn't pay much attention.  Subsequent chirps sounded normal, of course, because the level had been raised.  The resulting trim of -8 was a real surprise.

You may also have an intermittent/poor connection within either the Speaker or the Emo.
With the test tones playing from the centre, try to move the binding posts at each end - any variation in tone volume could indicate the root cause - also double check the pre-out to Emo in leads in the same way.
Regards, Mike.
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post #4619 of 11059 Old 09-13-2013, 06:09 AM
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All the cables look pristine.......

Cap going bad in a crossover?

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #4620 of 11059 Old 09-13-2013, 06:48 AM
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All the cables look pristine.  While you are correct, simply disconnecting and re-connecting cables can clear up issues, time will tell if that is the root cause this time.  I have to admit, I have never seen a loose or defective cable cause an 8-10dB loss in output, but I guess it could happen.  In the meantime, I think it would be wise to run with the consumer calibration for several days to see if the problem returns.  A Pro calibration takes long enough to complete that I am not anxious to have to discard another one.

I actually received a clue during the Pro calibration that something was wrong.  When the first sweep sent the chirp to the center channel, it had to increase the level and re-measure.  At the time, I thought it was perhaps because the speaker was in a slightly different position and didn't pay much attention.  Subsequent chirps sounded normal, of course, because the level had been raised.  The resulting trim of -8 was a real surprise.

Check your tweeter. A FR measurement should show it if thats it......
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