Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 160 - AVS Forum
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post #4771 of 11707 Old 09-27-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

+1 on that - in fact, whether or not you have the UMM-6 calibration file from CSL, I'd still do it as a sanity check. I installed the newest ASIO4ALL beta I'd posted about a few days ago, and while the static/noise issue is temporarily gone when I'm on battery power/best performance, I found that at least on my system, REW would no longer work correctly when I tested the signal db unless I did a formal calibration, even when it was pointed to the cal file. I'd play the cal tones (speaker, to test my speaker) and get silence until I cycled in and out of REW, redid the process, and calibrated (vs. hit "continue anyway"). OTOH, that might be the "old" bug Jerry mentioned with the most recent REW beta than a new one.

On the bright side, calibration with an SPL meter takes only a few minutes.

Well it's simple enough if I can use an app to do it. With regards to the calibration file, I ordered from Solen Electronics here in Canada. This is what they have to say on their website:

Calibration Note:
A unique serialized calibration file is available for the UMM-6. This calibration file can be used by most audio-analysis software. To obtain your individual calibration file, visit
Dayton Audio's website where you will be prompted to enter the serial number from the body of your UMM-6. After entering the serial number, your download will start.

I assume that's the same thing....

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post #4772 of 11707 Old 09-27-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


The good news is that when I connected the mic and ran REW, it all works so I am back in business, once I buy a new, longer HDMI cable. I have often been minded to install a small TV monitor in the gear closet so that I can do things from there which require sight of the screen, so I think now is the time to do this. Why it should be necessary to run an HD TV in addition to the PJ in order for the laptop to display a picture ie entirely beyond me. Anyone have a theory?

I am just pleased I have found a workaround, but I'd love to know wtf is going on.

What kind of signal does the TV (or projector) claim to be receiving when it works? There should be a status display in both which provides information about the input signal.

My guess would be a bug in the computer's HDMI output. Remember that when you have two display devices plugged in simultaneously, HDMI requires the source device to downgrade its output to be compatible with the least capable display device. Maybe the computer is trying to output a "high grade" signal that the projector claims to support but is getting it wrong. The TV doesn't advertise support for whatever signal that is, so the computer doesn't try to output it. Which makes the projector happy, too.

A comparison between the two different EDIDs as seen by the computer might be informative.

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post #4773 of 11707 Old 09-27-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post

I'm confused, too; on my screen the graph is about twice the height and about 1.5 times the width after clicking on "Overlay."
REW remembers the sizes you used for the various windows last time and uses that size again when you next open them. You can resize any of the graph windows by dragging on the edges or corners just as in most other Windows programs. If your graph display becomes corrupted that is usually a graphics driver problem, you would need to check whether your graphics driver is up to date. One way to do that is going to Windows Update in the Windows Control Panel and checking through the 'Optional Updates'.

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post #4774 of 11707 Old 09-27-2013, 08:13 PM
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I updated the Mac setup post to address the issue with REW not recognizing the mic. I'm not sure what the cause is, but for some reason REW does not always recognize the USB mic as the "Default Device." I believe this addresses the issue that someone was having a few posts back with REW not hearing anything on their Mac.

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post #4775 of 11707 Old 09-28-2013, 02:00 AM
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^
Making the input device the default in "Audio MIDI Setup" BEFORE starting REW always worked for me so far.

Markus

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post #4776 of 11707 Old 09-28-2013, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


The good news is that when I connected the mic and ran REW, it all works so I am back in business, once I buy a new, longer HDMI cable. I have often been minded to install a small TV monitor in the gear closet so that I can do things from there which require sight of the screen, so I think now is the time to do this. Why it should be necessary to run an HD TV in addition to the PJ in order for the laptop to display a picture ie entirely beyond me. Anyone have a theory?

I am just pleased I have found a workaround, but I'd love to know wtf is going on.

What kind of signal does the TV (or projector) claim to be receiving when it works? There should be a status display in both which provides information about the input signal.

My guess would be a bug in the computer's HDMI output. Remember that when you have two display devices plugged in simultaneously, HDMI requires the source device to downgrade its output to be compatible with the least capable display device. Maybe the computer is trying to output a "high grade" signal that the projector claims to support but is getting it wrong. The TV doesn't advertise support for whatever signal that is, so the computer doesn't try to output it. Which makes the projector happy, too.

A comparison between the two different EDIDs as seen by the computer might be informative.

 

Hey Selden,

 

I forgot to check the res that the PJ claimed it was receiving. I will set up again on Monday and check this. The image of the laptop desktop filled the screen - that's all I can say right now. Your analysis makes sense to me. I will check the EDIDs with that program you pointed me to and will report back. Thanks for your help with this - appreciated.



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post #4777 of 11707 Old 09-28-2013, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
Making the input device the default in "Audio MIDI Setup" BEFORE starting REW always worked for me so far.

This doesn't seem to work consistently for me. I'm still new to REW, but I've always tried to make sure I set the inputs and outputs correctly in the OS before I open REW. Sometimes REW recognizes the UMM-6 as the default device, and sometimes not. I'm open to suggestions.

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post #4778 of 11707 Old 09-28-2013, 02:32 PM
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Get in contact with the author of REW and send him logfiles (you'll find their location by opening the "About RoomEQ Wizard" window), screenshots of "Audio MIDI Setup", REW preferences, etc. whenever you encounter a situation where things don't work as expected.

Markus

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post #4779 of 11707 Old 09-29-2013, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

That is crazy, Gary.  Look at this:




They look to be about the same size.  How is yours different?  Can you take a screenshot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post

REW remembers the sizes you used for the various windows last time and uses that size again when you next open them. You can resize any of the graph windows by dragging on the edges or corners just as in most other Windows programs. If your graph display becomes corrupted that is usually a graphics driver problem, you would need to check whether your graphics driver is up to date. One way to do that is going to Windows Update in the Windows Control Panel and checking through the 'Optional Updates'.

Thanks, AustinJerry and JohnPM. The problem of not being able to save in time has cured itself, at least for now. As to the relative size issue, my screen image has a lot of things across the top and bottom, above and below the graph, that take up a great deal of space, such as (directly above; not off to the side) large buttons for IR windows, generator, RTA, EQ, etc and a large, almost square rectangle below with not only the dates of the sweeps, etc., but also phase, excess (?) phase, min phase, mic/meter cal, soundcard cal, etc. When I click on Overlay, whether or not I have more than one curve, the graph gets much larger, and most of the other stuff disappears. I'd include screenshots, but I haven't learned how to do that yet. Dragging the edges or corners of the graph windows doesn't seem to do anything, and the little squares I've seen on on other windows, elsewhere, don't appear.

But, REW seems to be working fine for me now, and I can get a big image by hitting Overlay, and don't have to rush to save.
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post #4780 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 10:44 AM
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I hope I will be forgiven for posting OmniMic pictures in the REW thread, but my extended HDMI cable that I need to use REW until I have solved the problem of no picture from the PJ (and no audio) unless I also hook up a separate monitor (see earlier posts) has not arrived today after all. 

 

Wanting to do a set of measurements today, I got out the OM rig and took some basics of the system as it currently stands, following the changes to the HT recently, and also following a new Audyssey Pro calibration last week. 

 

This is the full range graph, 1/6th smoothed. Audyssey is ON but in Music mode. The subs are running with the levels set by Audyssey (after gain matching prior to calibration). DEQ is OFF in this graph. IOW, this graph is pretty much the 'vanilla' response. In real life I run with DEQ on and also run the subs a little hot too (Submersive bass is addictive). I am very happy with this response, which is flat +/- 3dB from the XO to 20kHz.

 

 

This is the bass response, no smoothing applied. Here, DEQ is ON and the subs have been boosted +3dB to be more like real life listening.  The bass response is also flat +/- 3dB from 10Hz to the XO (although a little hotter than the XO-20kHz response due to the deliberate boost applied). The bass response is remarkably flat down to 10Hz too. The entire response from 10Hz to 20kHz is +/- 5dB or better (with most of the range +/- 3dB), which was my target, so I am very happy with these results. 

 

 

I will repeat the measurements when I have my system set up again for REW. I did not graph any waterfalls with OM as the display of them in the graphs is horrible, but ringing is very well controlled and this is also born out by the incredibly tight bass that I actually hear in-room.

 

Again, I apologise for the OM graphs in the REW thread, but they are posted to show the results of the past efforts (not measuring techniques etc), with which REW has been totally instrumental in helping me achieve. 



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post #4781 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 11:01 AM
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Why 1/6th octave smoothing?


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post #4782 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Why 1/6th octave smoothing?

 

It's the 'standard' used in this thread. 1/6th smoothing for full range graphs, no smoothing for bass frequency graphs. I believe it was adopted very early on so that comparisons between one member's graphs and another's would be easier.



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post #4783 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's the 'standard' used in this thread. 1/6th smoothing for full range graphs, no smoothing for bass frequency graphs. I believe it was adopted very early on so that comparisons between one member's graphs and another's would be easier.

For what its worth then, I disagree with this standard. 1/24th is MUCH more revealing. 1/6th hides way too much.

And while I do agree with no smoothing for bass responses, in Omnimic, the "All" or "Blended with 250ms long window option" needs to be used.


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post #4784 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 11:42 AM
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FWIW, I think the 1/6th smoothing was chosen because it most closely reflects what we actually hear BICBW?!  I don't think anyone would disagree with using 1/24th to troubleshoot but I do think some might obsess over a dip or peak that ultimately just leads to "graphitis nervosa".

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post #4785 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

FWIW, I think the 1/6th smoothing was chosen because it most closely reflects what we actually hear BICBW?!  I don't think anyone would disagree with using 1/24th to troubleshoot but I do think some might obsess over a dip or peak that ultimately just leads to "graphitis nervosa".

Whether you hear a peak or valley depends entirely on its magnitude, its "Q", and typically whether it happens to fall on a specific note. Believe me when I say that a peak that DOES happen to fall exactly on a note (or is wide enough to encompass several notes), say 1760hz (A6 on a Piano), you will hear it at its TRUE magnitude. At 1/6th oct smoothing, you cant know what the true magnitudes are.

This isnt to say 1/6th or even 1/3rd oct smoothing doesnt have a purpose. It does describe well the general tone of what we hear and these smoothing levels make it easier to see that tone character.


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post #4786 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 12:01 PM
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I was reading the 1st post again, and just realized that my UMIK-1 is only calibrated to 0 degrees. I always measured pointing at the ceiling (just like when running Audyssey)... I guess all my measurements are off then...

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post #4787 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's the 'standard' used in this thread. 1/6th smoothing for full range graphs, no smoothing for bass frequency graphs. I believe it was adopted very early on so that comparisons between one member's graphs and another's would be easier.

For what its worth then, I disagree with this standard. 1/24th is MUCH more revealing. 1/6th hides way too much.
 

 

Fair enough. It's just the convention that was agreed for the thread, early on. I use no smoothing or 1/24th smoothing for analysis and trouble shooting, then post the results 1/6th smoothed as requested. Also, I think Joe makes a good point - isn’t 1/6th smoothing much more like what we actually hear?  No point obsessing over graphs that show things we can't actually hear. 

 

 

Quote:

  And while I do agree with no smoothing for bass responses, in Omnimic, the "All" or "Blended with 250ms long window option" needs to be used.

 

I'll have to check if I used that or not. Thanks for the heads-up. What is the effect of that on the graph?



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post #4788 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Fair enough. It's just the convention that was agreed for the thread, early on. I use no smoothing or 1/24th smoothing for analysis and trouble shooting, then post the results 1/6th smoothed as requested. Also, I think Joe makes a good point - isn’t 1/6th smoothing much more like what we actually hear? No point obsessing over graphs that show things we can't actually hear.

If you read my previous post, Ill contend you could very well hear it and why.

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I'll have to check if I used that or not. Thanks for the heads-up. What is the effect of that on the graph?

A short time window will roll off the bass. Next time you measure, play with all the option and watch how the graph changes. In Omnimic, you have can choose any size window 0-75ms, 250ms, or "All".


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post #4789 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Fair enough. It's just the convention that was agreed for the thread, early on. I use no smoothing or 1/24th smoothing for analysis and trouble shooting, then post the results 1/6th smoothed as requested. Also, I think Joe makes a good point - isn’t 1/6th smoothing much more like what we actually hear? No point obsessing over graphs that show things we can't actually hear.

If you read my previous post, Ill contend you could very well hear it and why.
 

 

Yes, I did read your post there. TBH I don't really have a problem with it either way - my 1/24th smoothed graphs don't show any significant issues. I just checked to see if I saved any from the last run but I saved all the full range ones as 1/6th. One of the things I prefer about REW over OM is that I could just go back and re-create them with different smoothing - not possible with OM as you know.

 

 

Quote:

 
>Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'll have to check if I used that or not. Thanks for the heads-up. What is the effect of that on the graph?

A short time window will roll off the bass. Next time you measure, play with all the option and watch how the graph changes. In Omnimic, you have can choose any size window 0-75ms, 250ms, or "All".
 

 

OK - thanks. I will do that. Should one use 'ALL' for all frequency response measurements or just the bass?  I guess just the bass from what you say. 

 

When you say it rolls off the bass, where does it roll it off - towards the bottom end, or towards the XO, or both?  Thanks for your help and apologies for being OT to the other guys. 



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post #4790 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 12:44 PM
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OK - thanks. I will do that. Should one use 'ALL' for all frequency response measurements or just the bass?  I guess just the bass from what you say. 

When you say it rolls off the bass, where does it roll it off - towards the bottom end, or towards the XO, or both?  Thanks for your help and apologies for being OT to the other guys. 

Its depends. What one must think about is what different windows lengths mean. That is, what time window interests you? There may be cases where only the first 75ms matter. For measuring bass, I think "All" is the most accurate (in terms of the total sound), but 250ms maybe more realistic to what we actually hear or consider part of the music. For example, is important what the bass does after 250ms? Well, if you have long decays times or are in a large room, it might. If you aren't/don't, it probably won't.


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post #4791 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 01:04 PM
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Here is a handy illustration that shows where common notes fall. When using 1/24th or less smoothing, you can see if a particular peak or valley corresponds to any of them.


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post #4792 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 01:07 PM
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http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/712433-before-posting-your-measurement-results.html

This describes an alternate criteria for measurements.


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post #4793 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 01:54 PM
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OK - thanks. I will do that. Should one use 'ALL' for all frequency response measurements or just the bass?  I guess just the bass from what you say. 

When you say it rolls off the bass, where does it roll it off - towards the bottom end, or towards the XO, or both?  Thanks for your help and apologies for being OT to the other guys. 

Its depends. What one must think about is what different windows lengths mean. That is, what time window interests you? There may be cases where only the first 75ms matter. For measuring bass, I think "All" is the most accurate (in terms of the total sound), but 250ms maybe more realistic to what we actually hear or consider part of the music. For example, is important what the bass does after 250ms? Well, if you have long decays times or are in a large room, it might. If you aren't/don't, it probably won't.

 

OK thanks - got it.

 

I just remeasured using ALL - there is barely any difference in the graphs.  Here is the bass with the setting at ALL (no smoothing):

 

 

I'm still +/- 5dB across the range, which was my target and which I understand is considered 'good'. The above is the 'vanilla' response, no DEQ, no bass boost. but Audyssey is ON as it always is when I am listening.



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post #4794 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 02:00 PM
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http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/712433-before-posting-your-measurement-results.html

This describes an alternate criteria for measurements.

 

Excellent stuff. I had no significant input into the conventions used in this thread (I barely knew how to use REW when the thread was started) but it was the consensus that 1/6th smoothing be used for full range graphs. Everyone has adhered to that since because it makes the comparisons between users easier. I do see your point. That graphic you posted above is terrific - I shall print that and save it.



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post #4795 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 04:11 PM
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OK thanks - got it.

I just remeasured using ALL - there is barely any difference in the graphs.  Here is the bass with the setting at ALL (no smoothing):




I'm still +/- 5dB across the range, which was my target and which I understand is considered 'good'. The above is the 'vanilla' response, no DEQ, no bass boost. but Audyssey is ON as it always is when I am listening.




Here is mine under the same conditions. Yours extends lower than mine mad.gif

Of course, mine is without any processing or EQ smile.gif


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post #4796 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 04:14 PM
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Here is mine under the same conditions. Yours extends lower than mine mad.gif

smile.gif

Well, Keith has his woofage: two Seaton Submersives in a relatively small, but dedicated HT room. And more treatments than you can shake a universal remote at...

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^^
As to smoothing - please, I've got enough on my plate with new parenthood and my Trinnov experiment to write up and set up a thread for without worrying about 1/24th smoothing on a full-range plot. There's only so much OCD I can take..... tongue.gif

I did find that Gearslutz article you'd linked to pretty interesting; at least as a platinum standard for some of the non-FR plots....

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post #4798 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 04:18 PM
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OK thanks - got it.

I just remeasured using ALL - there is barely any difference in the graphs.  Here is the bass with the setting at ALL (no smoothing):




I'm still +/- 5dB across the range, which was my target and which I understand is considered 'good'. The above is the 'vanilla' response, no DEQ, no bass boost. but Audyssey is ON as it always is when I am listening.

Nice to see you back in the game, Keith...is that Behringer still staring at you from the closet? wink.gif

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

The Audyssey FAQ Guide can be found here:


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post #4799 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 04:18 PM
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^^
As to smoothing - please, I've got enough on my plate with new parenthood and my Trinnov experiment to write up and set up a thread for without worrying about 1/24th smoothing on a full-range plot. There's only so much OCD I can take..... tongue.gif

I did find that article you'd linked to pretty interesting; at least as a platinum standard for some of the non-FR plots....

Well, if you dont care how the measurements are taken, check this out biggrin.gif



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post #4800 of 11707 Old 09-30-2013, 04:19 PM
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Well, if you dont care how the measurements are taken, check this out biggrin.gif


OMG thanks for the laugh....a flat plot worthy of a Pro Certificate!

What is that: 1/3rd smoothing? eek.gif

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Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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