Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 166 - AVS Forum
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post #4951 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

my thought exactly

Bao:

My thought: even with a clever rearrangement of all the furniture in your spacious room (including that computer table at stake) by giving priority to speaker placement you could get excellent results. Repeat: excellent results! smile.gif Your room and your gear have all the potential for that! smile.gif Don't let furniture get in the way!!
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post #4952 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 10:04 AM
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ok

When i posted my FIRST REW graph smile.gif yesterday, I got comments saying try fix the 66Hz dip, don't worry about the 66Hz dip, try move the subs around, look at decay times etc etc. Lots of good suggestions from the experts which i really appreciate.

But I have some novice (i hope basic) questions on my first graph.
I am hoping those that have seen many, many graphs, the "gray beards" smile.gif, can chime in.

To briefly recap, my room is perfectly rectangular:

Length: 28.5 ft
Width : 22.2 ft
Height: 8.0 ft

for a total of 5062 cubic feet.

1) Is the below graph of 15 - 300 Hz below average, average, above average, excellent?
2) In terms of peaks and nulls, what is audible to the average human ear? What aspects of graph can be ignored because they would be inconsequential? Can someone point me to a good white paper on this?
3) Depending on answer to above, do i need to spend time moving my subs around the room?
4) How do i know when to stop moving the subs around - is there general consensus on what a "good" graph looks like?
5) Can someone point me to an "above average" or "excellent" graph for a room similar to mine: rectangular between 4K and 6K cu ft?


Basically i am wondering what is good enough? I think the system sounds awesome but i am not an expert.

Here is the graph without Audyssey XT32 (BLUE) and with XT32 (RED).

thanks!


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post #4953 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Bao:

My thought: even with a clever rearrangement of all the furniture in your spacious room (including that computer table at stake) by giving priority to speaker placement you could get excellent results. Repeat: excellent results! smile.gif Your room and your gear have all the potential for that! smile.gif Don't let furniture get in the way!!

I will give priority to speaker placement. I just thought that even after i do that, there may still be room for a small portable desk i can roll in there on occasion when i want to sit near window and sip my coffee. smile.gif

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post #4954 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

I will give priority to speaker placement. I just thought that even after i do that, there may still be room for a small portable desk i can roll in there on occasion when i want to sit near window and sip my coffee. smile.gif

You're the Boss! smile.gif
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post #4955 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 10:15 AM
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This has probably already been discussed ad nauseam in this thread and if so i apologize - please point me to relevant posts.
But in case it has not.

What is the general consensus on this presentation by

Todd Welti, Research Acoustician, Harman International Industries, Inc.

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

He seems to have gone to MIT (seems very smart - lots of math).

For a rectangular room, do I always start by placing two subs in middle of opposing walls?
Is this the de facto best starting point and then just fine tune from there?

thanks

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post #4956 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

You're the Boss! smile.gif

I like Bruce but he hasn't put anything good out in some time - he was funny with Fallon though smile.gif

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post #4957 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post


1) Is the below graph of 15 - 300 Hz below average, average, above average, excellent?
2) In terms of peaks and nulls, what is audible to the average human ear? What aspects of graph can be ignored because they would be inconsequential? Can someone point me to a good white paper on this?
3) Depending on answer to above, do i need to spend time moving my subs around the room?
4) How do i know when to stop moving the subs around - is there general consensus on what a "good" graph looks like?
5) Can someone point me to an "above average" or "excellent" graph for a room similar to mine: rectangular between 4K and 6K cu ft?

 

 

1-I think the bass response is above average.

2-Narrow dips like the one in your graph are probably not that noticeable.  If you are listening to music, an instrument would have to play a 66Hz note for a sustained period of time in order for you to notice the dip.  You can apply smoothing to the graph--some say that 1/6 smoothing approximates what the human ear can hear.

3-It is up to you.  I think a serious audiophile would want to know what the best placement for the subs would be.  I don't know how you decided to place the subs where they are now, but what are the odds of it being the best placement if it was by chance, or esthetics?  I think experimenting with sub placement is a good exercise, if you are willing to expend the effort.  If you are satisfied with the current sound, then don't worry about it.

4-Stop moving subs around when additional movement makes the measurements worse.

5-There are a lot of examples in this thread.  KBarnes' bass response would be a good example.  He enjoys posting it every now and then.  ;)

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post #4958 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

1-I think the bass response is above average.
2-Narrow dips like the one in your graph are probably not that noticeable.  If you are listening to music, an instrument would have to play a 66Hz note for a sustained period of time in order for you to notice the dip.  You can apply smoothing to the graph--some say that 1/6 smoothing approximates what the human ear can hear.
3-It is up to you.  I think a serious audiophile would want to know what the best placement for the subs would be.  I don't know how you decided to place the subs where they are now, but what are the odds of it being the best placement if it was by chance, or esthetics?  I think experimenting with sub placement is a good exercise, if you are willing to expend the effort.  If you are satisfied with the current sound, then don't worry about it.
4-Stop moving subs around when additional movement makes the measurements worse.
5-There are a lot of examples in this thread.  KBarnes' bass response would be a good example.  He enjoys posting it every now and then.  wink.gif

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post #4959 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 11:45 AM
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thanks Jerry
i will look for Barnes graph and i will move my subs

and is the best starting point for two subs at the midpoint of opposing walls per the Todd Welti paper?

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post #4960 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

For a rectangular room, do I always start by placing two subs in middle of opposing walls?
That placement should minimize nulls at the midpoint of room width (main listening position) but will result in some peaks at that location (which can be tamed by room correction). My default placement for a pair of subs would be the 1/4 points of room width, as Jerry has them, because that can minimize nulls and peaks that fall in the subwoofer range.

For a first measurement, I would place the mic at the main listening position and place a single sub in one of the front corners of the room. Corner placement should light up all the room modes. Seeing the severity of the peaks & dips will make it easier to suggest subwoofer locations. Since you have a single seat, you don't have to worry about listeners on either side of you, which frees up your subs to address length or width modes (depending on which is more severe).

BTW, are your speakers on the 28' wall or the 22' wall? Also, is the room closed (no open archways to other rooms)?

Sanjay
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post #4961 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

That placement should minimize nulls at the midpoint of room width (main listening position) but will result in some peaks at that location (which can be tamed by room correction). My default placement for a pair of subs would be the 1/4 points of room width, as Jerry has them, because that can minimize nulls and peaks that fall in the subwoofer range.

For a first measurement, I would place the mic at the main listening position and place a single sub in one of the front corners of the room. Corner placement should light up all the room modes. Seeing the severity of the peaks & dips will make it easier to suggest subwoofer locations. Since you have a single seat, you don't have to worry about listeners on either side of you, which frees up your subs to address length or width modes (depending on which is more severe).

BTW, are your speakers on the 28' wall or the 22' wall? Also, is the room closed (no open archways to other rooms)?

see here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/4890#post_23808002

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post #4962 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 12:03 PM
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ok couple of issues...

My Macbookpro cant recognize my behringer uca202 as either an output or input device....(Im using an spl meter as mic)

so I finagled it to use the ac202 as the input device but still not output device...so I was trying to use the optical out on the mac through a XDA1 as the DAC...but it is saying the signal keeps getting clipped..

help!!

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post #4963 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 12:41 PM
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Brian, I don't think the purpose of this thread is to trouble-shoot non-standard hardware configurations. Most of the thread participants are using the standard USB mic and HDMI hardware on Windows laptops, although several contributors are using Mac's. I have a lot of experience with REW, but I wouldn't know where to start addressing your issues, sorry. Any chance you could acquire a more standard configuration so you could participate here?
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post #4964 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 12:50 PM
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Sorry. My fault.

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post #4965 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
Not talking about the RTA settings but the settings for swept sine measurements. Hit the info button of a measurement and the details are shown.

Sorry if I was not clear with my response. I used the same settings as the ones shown in your original post. Are there settings not shown in you post below? Unfortunately, I don't seem to have saved the measurement file.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Play pink noise. REW comes with a handy pink noise generator. In the following example a low pass is applied to the noise. This reduces strain on your tweeters and ears:



Put the mic at the listening position and observe the frequency response with REW's RTA. Here are some settings that should work. Wait until the averaged readings produce a pretty steady curve. Now move the sub(s) around to find the best curve:




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post #4966 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 01:02 PM
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It's worth mentioning the Pink PN (periodic noise) option too. Here's a quote from the latest PDF manual for beta 17.
Quote:
Originally Posted by REW Manual 

Pink and White Periodic Noise
Periodic Noise (PN) sequences are ideally suited for use with spectrum and real time analysers (RTA's). They contain every frequency the analyser can resolve in a sequence length that matches the length of the analyser's FFT. Their great benefit is that they produce the desired spectrum shape without requiring any averaging or windowing, so the analyser display reacts much more rapidly to changes in the system than it would if testing with Pink or White random noise, making them ideal for live adjustment of EQ filters. The PN sequences REW generates are optimised to have a crest factor (ratio of peak level to rms level) that does not exceed 6 dB.Use Pink PN when measuring with an RTA or White PN with a Spectrum analyser.
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post #4967 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Sorry if I was not clear with my response. I used the same settings as the ones shown in your original post. Are there settings not shown in you post below? Unfortunately, I don't seem to have saved the measurement file.

Jerry,

Again, I was NOT talking about the pink noise measurement but the SWEPT SINE measurement. What settings did you use for that?

Markus

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post #4968 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 01:29 PM
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Not Jerry but since we've never discussed changing this parameter (in this thread at least), I'm assuming he's using the default as shown here:

 

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post #4970 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 02:23 PM
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ok...question...I calibrated my spl meter to read 80db witht the calibration...but when i run the sweep it only shows the peak spl being 50hz? what am I missing?

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post #4971 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 03:12 PM
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Not quite understanding. Are you saying you followed the calibration instructions in the Guide, and calibrated the SPL meter to 80dB successfully? And what happens when you run a measurement sweep?

Let's test to see if he SPL is indeed reading a test tone properly.

1. With your SPL meter connected and placed at the MLP, open the REW SPL meter.
2. Click the red button. You should see the SPL level indicating that it is getting a signal.
3. On your AVR, run the speaker-level test tones. These should play tones at approximately 75dB.
4. What is registering as the SPL in REW?
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I have two subs. Here are two placement results. My mains crossover to the two subs at 80 Hz.
Unfortunately the prepro output level to the subs from the two runs is not identical.
Nonetheless, which placement is better: RED or BLUE.

thanks


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When moving two subs and testing, what is more important to test first?
Varying the distance each sub is from its wall (the distance from wall to rear of sub i.e. sliding sub further into room) or
varying the distance away from the mid point along the wall (sliding the sub parallel to its wall)?

thanks

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Not quite understanding. Are you saying you followed the calibration instructions in the Guide, and calibrated the SPL meter to 80dB successfully? And what happens when you run a measurement sweep?

Let's test to see if he SPL is indeed reading a test tone properly.

1. With your SPL meter connected and placed at the MLP, open the REW SPL meter.
2. Click the red button. You should see the SPL level indicating that it is getting a signal.
3. On your AVR, run the speaker-level test tones. These should play tones at approximately 75dB.
4. What is registering as the SPL in REW?
Its registering right around what the spl meter is.

But the graph responses dont go higher than 40 hz. Let me show you.

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post #4977 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

When moving two subs and testing, what is more important to test first?
Varying the distance each sub is from its wall (the distance from wall to rear of sub i.e. sliding sub further into room) or
varying the distance away from the mid point along the wall (sliding the sub parallel to its wall)?

thanks
For practical purposes, folks tend to slide the subs along the walls, both because no one wants a random monolith sitting in the middle of the room, and because the boundary reinforcement from being close to the corners (where intersecting planes like a wall and the floor is considered a corner) increases the bass.


Max
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post #4978 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

BTW, are your speakers on the 28' wall or the 22' wall? Also, is the room closed (no open archways to other rooms)?

see here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/4890#post_23808002
I already did, and your description of room dimensions conflicted with your MLP description:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

Pics of room are in my gallery:
http://www.avsforum.com/g/a/2276097/my-theater/

It is perfectly rectangular:
Length: 28.5 ft
Width : 22.2 ft
Height: 8.0 ft

The MLP is 10.4 ft from front wall and 12 ft from rear wall.
With the length being described as 28.5 ft and 22.4 ft, I just wanted to confirm which wall the speakers were on. But if you don't want to answer the question, I won't ask again.

Sanjay
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post #4979 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 04:35 PM
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It is along the long wall.

B&W 802 Diamond mains, B&W HTM2 Diamond center, B&W 804 Diamond surrounds, Parasound HALO A 51, Krell KAV-300i , Integra DHC-80.3 pre-pro, two JL Audio Fathom f113 subs, Panasonic TC-P65VT50 65" plasma
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post #4980 of 12021 Old 10-07-2013, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

I have two subs. Here are two placement results. My mains crossover to the two subs at 80 Hz.
Unfortunately the prepro output level to the subs from the two runs is not identical.
Nonetheless, which placement is better: RED or BLUE.

thanks


Neither. The graph you posted yesterday is considerably better, IMO. Don't you think so?

Edit: I suspect these are both without Audyssey, and the one yesterday was with Audyssey, which could account for yesterday's looking better.
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