Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 193 - AVS Forum
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post #5761 of 11697 Old 10-25-2013, 07:54 AM
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Stuff it with pink fluffy?

;)

And make sure no one EVER uses it.

:eek:


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post #5762 of 11697 Old 10-25-2013, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

I've been measuring and measuring trying to get a good set of measures. But I keep messing up one thing or another (xover setting, loudness settings, etc) so I don't have a postable one yet.

But I did discover a new source of ringing. I have cast iron stove for heating (that is unused) in my listening room. It rings and rings during the tests.eek.gif

I have to figure out how to dampen it. Any suggestions other than wrap it with pink fluffy?

 

The obvious question is, since it is never used, why not consider removing it?  it may come down to a choice between good sound and room esthetics.  Choose wisely--you will be judged!  ;)


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post #5763 of 11697 Old 10-25-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

The obvious question is, since it is never used, why not consider removing it?  it may come down to a choice between good sound and room esthetics.  Choose wisely--you will be judged!  wink.gif

We're planning on removing it. Finding someone to do it is annoyingly difficult because it's a gas stove.

But it's going to mess up all my measurements mad.gif
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post #5764 of 11697 Old 10-25-2013, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

We're planning on removing it. Finding someone to do it is annoyingly difficult because it's a gas stove.

But it's going to mess up all my measurements mad.gif

Hey, we all have to make our sacrifices for audio nirvana LOL...tongue.gif

Look at it this way: you may discover new things about your room to improve if you have to remeasure...or decide to change placements and see the impact. It's always one step forward, one or more steps back biggrin.gif

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post #5765 of 11697 Old 10-25-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

Ok, you asked... wink.gif

I don't know if yours work the same as mine as I have the BP7000's, however, I have found (and through a lot of testing I am 100% positive about this) that you MUST level match the "subs" that are built in to the speakers using the same hookup method as you will normally use.

I use the LFE input on my BP7000's (and I don't believe I would on ANY lesser model - as my speakers have the Supercube Reference subs built in) so I can use my Sub EQ's (external EQ I mean, although Audyssey too I suppose, since I only have XT) and it requires turning the gain knob to about the 12:00 position in my room/setup to be level matched at 75db with the main part of the speakers.

However, if I set the speakers up as LARGE and do NOT use a separate cord hooked in to the LFE in on the speaker then at only about 9:00 they are level matched and if I turn them up to 12:00 they are so much louder it totally screws up Audyssey because Audyssey cannot even get them quiet enough and it really messes up the phase and FR.

Jason,
We have the same general philosophy about the DT speakers. Level matching both parts of the speaker is a prerequisite before doing any serious room assessment or calibration with powered speakers. The approach I've done over the last year or so dates back to something that was written up on the DT Mythos thread back in late February of 2010. However, it was based on using LFE input to level match the powered and non-powered speaker sections. It's unclear how many DT users bother, honestly, especially since many (not me) tend to use the speakers as substitute subs. I've got two HSU-15 external subs, and since they handle sub frequencies quite well, I'm not using my Mythos ST speakers are "subs" for < 60-80 Hz or so. My Mythos have Supercube I built-ins, not Reference, and I wouldn't take their bass performance too seriously below about 35-40 Hz with any reliability, if that. But I don't expect to, since I'm not doing two-channel stereo full range listening (no external sub) with them.

I should mention that I use Audyssey XT32, not XT, and the Pro Kit, so there's no real resolution difference whether you use the Mythos on speaker wire or LFE input. With XT32, the only major advantage of using LFE input for the DefTechs is that you can control volume for that part of the speaker with the AVR vs. on the DTs. With XT or an RC that doesn't have sub channel or < 63 Hz EQ, I think it matters more, which may explain what you found with the difference in performance with the speakers as Large. I actually do the level matching assessment with the speakers temporarily set up as Large (no sub) for level matching purposes, to make sure the sound is blended, and measuring of the full speaker response, so we agree there.

OTOH, if you're going to use LFE input as a means to level match the DT (or equivalent) line, I think the learning from your case is that it's not sufficient to assume that the speaker stays level matched once you move to speaker wire only from LFE, but to pick one and run with it for your final assessment. I run my speakers on speaker wire so that I can free up my two Denon 4311 inputs for my two real subs, and make use of Sub EQ for them. I don't intend, at least in an Audyssey context, to run my speakers on LFE input at all for critical listening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

So... What I do is (and this wouldn't matter whether you intend to use the LFE connection for better control of the bass with EQ or not) turn the knob all the way down then level match to 75db using the AVR test tone and a SPL meter with NO EQ (but remember, I'm perfectly flat except for a dip around 1khz w/ no EQ - so you may want to use a test disc w/ test tones and Audyssey engaged just for the flatness even though you will be starting [possibly] with the wrong level) the main/non powered speakers.

Then I turn the knob to 9:00 if I'm using large/lfe+main or 12:00 if I'm using small / 100hz (which is what I use now) and physically unplug the speaker wires (from the amp or speaker - whichever is more convenient) and then play the subwoofer test tone (same AVR method as above) and set to 75db. (Make sure all other subs are off, of course)

Then I plug the speakers back in and run a calibrated (meaning mic w/ calibration file and SPL calibrated REW session) sweep to verify that from about 25hz (bottom end of the BP7000's) to 22khz or so they are level and acting as one speaker.

I use my OTHER subs (Two Epik Empire's and Two DIY 18" dual opposed SI drivers) to create my house curve (higher bass response than mid/treble).

Again though, I don't know if your models work this way. You DEFINITELY need to check it though.

The easiest way to check it is to set your speakers to large with no sub (as above) with the knob at about 9:00 and take a test sweep. It doesn't even have to be calibrated in REW.

Then without moving anything or changing anything else, simply set the speakers to small with sub (and the RCA cable hooked up) and take another test sweep. If the FR is the same then your model doesn't work as mine and you can simply play with your knob until the bottom end matches the top.

I think the learning is that if I want to use the Level Volume on my Mythos to work with level matching, base it on final connection method (LFE or speaker wire). For speaker wire, we start with the speakers as "Large" (no subs) for testing purposes as I currently do, and a 12:00 Level Volume, and do full-range sweeps with manipulation of the test tones on the AVR, and an external meter, to get approximate SPL match. Then run the REW plot on the standard full-range plot we do (15 Hz to 20kHz), to see if I'm getting relative leveling, or as close as I can, in the speaker crossover range, or if the change in Level Volume produces any other anamolies. In that case, dial down the Level Volume. or up as needed. The REW confirmation plot is the only thing that's all that different from what I currently have done.

I may try it this way as well as the way that Markus recommended with RTA analysis and evaluation of the 63 Hz and 1 kHz bands, and compare the results.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #5766 of 11697 Old 10-25-2013, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

Ok, you asked... wink.gif

I don't know if yours work the same as mine as I have the BP7000's, however, I have found (and through a lot of testing I am 100% positive about this) that you MUST level match the "subs" that are built in to the speakers using the same hookup method as you will normally use.

I use the LFE input on my BP7000's (and I don't believe I would on ANY lesser model - as my speakers have the Supercube Reference subs built in) so I can use my Sub EQ's (external EQ I mean, although Audyssey too I suppose, since I only have XT) and it requires turning the gain knob to about the 12:00 position in my room/setup to be level matched at 75db with the main part of the speakers.

However, if I set the speakers up as LARGE and do NOT use a separate cord hooked in to the LFE in on the speaker then at only about 9:00 they are level matched and if I turn them up to 12:00 they are so much louder it totally screws up Audyssey because Audyssey cannot even get them quiet enough and it really messes up the phase and FR.

Jason,
We have the same general philosophy about the DT speakers. Level matching both parts of the speaker is a prerequisite before doing any serious room assessment or calibration with powered speakers. The approach I've done over the last year or so dates back to something that was written up on the DT Mythos thread back in late February of 2010. However, it was based on using LFE input to level match the powered and non-powered speaker sections. It's unclear how many DT users bother, honestly, especially since many (not me) tend to use the speakers as substitute subs. I've got two HSU-15 external subs, and since they handle sub frequencies quite well, I'm not using my Mythos ST speakers are "subs" for < 60-80 Hz or so. My Mythos have Supercube I built-ins, not Reference, and I wouldn't take their bass performance too seriously below about 35-40 Hz with any reliability, if that. But I don't expect to, since I'm not doing two-channel stereo full range listening (no external sub) with them.

I should mention that I use Audyssey XT32, not XT, and the Pro Kit, so there's no real resolution difference whether you use the Mythos on speaker wire or LFE input. With XT32, the only major advantage of using LFE input for the DefTechs is that you can control volume for that part of the speaker with the AVR vs. on the DTs. With XT or an RC that doesn't have sub channel or < 63 Hz EQ, I think it matters more, which may explain what you found with the difference in performance with the speakers as Large. I actually do the level matching assessment with the speakers temporarily set up as Large (no sub) for level matching purposes, to make sure the sound is blended, and measuring of the full speaker response, so we agree there.

OTOH, if you're going to use LFE input as a means to level match the DT (or equivalent) line, I think the learning from your case is that it's not sufficient to assume that the speaker stays level matched once you move to speaker wire only from LFE, but to pick one and run with it for your final assessment. I run my speakers on speaker wire so that I can free up my two Denon 4311 inputs for my two real subs, and make use of Sub EQ for them. I don't intend, at least in an Audyssey context, to run my speakers on LFE input at all for critical listening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

So... What I do is (and this wouldn't matter whether you intend to use the LFE connection for better control of the bass with EQ or not) turn the knob all the way down then level match to 75db using the AVR test tone and a SPL meter with NO EQ (but remember, I'm perfectly flat except for a dip around 1khz w/ no EQ - so you may want to use a test disc w/ test tones and Audyssey engaged just for the flatness even though you will be starting [possibly] with the wrong level) the main/non powered speakers.

Then I turn the knob to 9:00 if I'm using large/lfe+main or 12:00 if I'm using small / 100hz (which is what I use now) and physically unplug the speaker wires (from the amp or speaker - whichever is more convenient) and then play the subwoofer test tone (same AVR method as above) and set to 75db. (Make sure all other subs are off, of course)

Then I plug the speakers back in and run a calibrated (meaning mic w/ calibration file and SPL calibrated REW session) sweep to verify that from about 25hz (bottom end of the BP7000's) to 22khz or so they are level and acting as one speaker.

I use my OTHER subs (Two Epik Empire's and Two DIY 18" dual opposed SI drivers) to create my house curve (higher bass response than mid/treble).

Again though, I don't know if your models work this way. You DEFINITELY need to check it though.

The easiest way to check it is to set your speakers to large with no sub (as above) with the knob at about 9:00 and take a test sweep. It doesn't even have to be calibrated in REW.

Then without moving anything or changing anything else, simply set the speakers to small with sub (and the RCA cable hooked up) and take another test sweep. If the FR is the same then your model doesn't work as mine and you can simply play with your knob until the bottom end matches the top.

I think the learning is that if I want to use the Level Volume on my Mythos to work with level matching, base it on final connection method (LFE or speaker wire). For speaker wire, we start with the speakers as "Large" (no subs) for testing purposes as I currently do, and a 12:00 Level Volume, and do full-range sweeps with manipulation of the test tones on the AVR, and an external meter, to get approximate SPL match. Then run the REW plot on the standard full-range plot we do (15 Hz to 20kHz), to see if I'm getting relative leveling, or as close as I can, in the speaker crossover range, or if the change in Level Volume produces any other anamolies. In that case, dial down the Level Volume. or up as needed. The REW confirmation plot is the only thing that's all that different from what I currently have done.

I may try it this way as well as the way that Markus recommended with RTA analysis and evaluation of the 63 Hz and 1 kHz bands, and compare the results.

 

I think, Stuart, when we do the AVS Oscars in February, you will definitely be nominated for "Deepest Into The Rabbit Hole, 2013" category. :)



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post #5767 of 11697 Old 10-25-2013, 12:44 PM
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^^ it makes sense if you have towers with built-in powered subs. Otherwise it's arcane jibberish, which is how I sometimes feel reading about gain matching. To each their own..smile.gif

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #5768 of 11697 Old 10-25-2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

We're planning on removing it. Finding someone to do it is annoyingly difficult because it's a gas stove.

We've done it. It's not that bad. You need a plumber to cap off the gas line, then just about anyone can take out the stove. You might even be able to sell it. We left the chimney in the roof so we wouldn't have to seal that up, just the ceiling in the room.


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post #5769 of 11697 Old 10-25-2013, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Hey, we all have to make our sacrifices for audio nirvana LOL...tongue.gif

That one is a sacrifice even the wife is willing to make biggrin.gif
Quote:
Look at it this way: you may discover new things about your room to improve if you have to remeasure...or decide to change placements and see the impact. It's always one step forward, one or more steps back biggrin.gif

Feels like one forward, 10 or 20 back sometimes. Good thing this is a long term proposition!
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post #5770 of 11697 Old 10-25-2013, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

We've done it. It's not that bad. You need a plumber to cap off the gas line, then just about anyone can take out the stove. You might even be able to sell it. We left the chimney in the roof so we wouldn't have to seal that up, just the ceiling in the room.

Hey, great! Thanks. We need a plumber in for other things so that may just work out.

The reason we don't use it (we're new to this house) is that it's ventless. I'm comfortable with gas but even I get visions of CO poisoning. So no chimney to worry about.

Thanks again!
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^^ it makes sense if you have towers with built-in powered subs. Otherwise it's arcane jibberish, which is how I sometimes feel reading about gain matching. To each their own..smile.gif

:eek:!!!!!!



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post #5772 of 11697 Old 10-26-2013, 02:07 PM
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OK. I spent today recalibrating with Audyssey Pro and then measuring with REW following 'doubling up' on the insulation in all of my corner traps and adding a new wall/floor corner trap (also doubled up) and two smaller custom-sized traps along the front floor/wall corner, between the speakers. The latter have 4 inches of insulation only due to space considerations.

 

This is the waterfall before the traps were upgraded - mic position is as close as possible to that used today for the 'after' measurements, as is SPL.

 

 

This is the waterfall after adding the additional absorption:

 

 

There is some improvement but not where I expected it to be!  I was trying to get rid of the problem at about 50-60Hz yet that seems pretty much unchanged. Comments welcome.

 

Showing the importance of the measuring SPL, here is an 'after' waterfall made from a measurement taken at slightly lower level:

 

 

Big 'graphed' difference.

 

Frequency response was also changed a little but remember the mic was not in exactly the same position as for the earlier measurements, just as close as I could get it. All graphs below unsmoothed.

 

Bass region before adding additional absorption:

 

 

And after...

 

 

And both overlaid to make comparison easier:

 

 

I would welcome comments and observations from the thread - especially with regard to whether anyone thinks the effort and expense of upgrading the treatments was worth it, or not. Thanks.

 

BTW, how does it sound?  Bloody marvellous!!



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Well, I am pleased you blazed the trail, Keith. You have saved me some time and money!

Seriously, it is always a bit disappointing if the results aren't what was expected. Your beginning graphs looked pretty good, and the ending graphs certainly don't look worse. You could always lower your MLP a few inches so it matches that better-looking waterfall. wink.gif

I have a similar little bump in my response in the 50-60Hz range, and numerous efforts to eliminate it have been unsuccessful. Perhaps we should just call it the Audyssey mid-bass compensation and leave it alone.

How about a picture of the modified traps, maybe from the end?

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post #5774 of 11697 Old 10-26-2013, 04:11 PM
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I was trying to get rid of the problem at about 50-60Hz yet that seems pretty much unchanged. Comments welcome.
You'd need bass traps a couple feet thick (like the OP in the Double Bass Array thread is using) to see a noticeable change at such low frequencies. Your 10.5' long room's first length mode is around 54Hz. It will null at the midpoint of room length and peak at the front & back walls.



The peak you're seeing around 54Hz is likely due to your seating being near the back wall.



The typical solution discussed in this thread has been to place subs in nulls to prevent those frequencies from resonating. That won't be possible in your case because, if memory serves, your entry door on the right wall is at that location. There are a couple of other options you could try, but you'll have to decide whether the small 54Hz peak is worth the effort.

The first would require asymmetrical subwoofer placement: one at the midpoint of your left wall and the other at the midpoint of your back wall, which will address your first length and width modes, respectively. The other option is nearfield placement. The sides of your subs are wedge shaped to fit perfectly into corners. You could lay both down sideways and place them behind your seating (at the corner formed by your floor and back wall). No mode cancelling there, just the usual nearfield placement selling point (hear more of your subs and less of your room).
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I would welcome comments and observations from the thread - especially with regard to whether anyone thinks the effort and expense of upgrading the treatments was worth it, or not.
Worth it to the extent that you were able to reduce eliminate the shallow dip and deep null caused by your first 2 height modes (both improvements are easily visible in the comparison graph).

EQ can bring down peaks, but can't do anything about nulls. So any time you're able to get rid of dips and nulls, you've come out ahead.

Sanjay
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We're planning on removing it. Finding someone to do it is annoyingly difficult because it's a gas stove.

But it's going to mess up all my measurements mad.gif

A regular plumber will disconnect and cap the pipes, probably with a permit. Metal collectors will haul it away (they hauled ours). A few will even pay you for it! After we removed ours, we told our insurance guy (and sent him before & after pictures, as well as the collector's truck, with stove on board, receding in the distance), and he lowered our premium.
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Can someone explain how Keith gets improvements but then introduces a big null at 290hz?

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That's from putting his fist through one of the surround speakers.


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I just came across this interesting suggestion from the manual for my Pioneer SC-1222:

 

Huh? "Not parallel to the wall surface"?

:confused:

:eek: 


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post #5779 of 11697 Old 10-26-2013, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

I just came across this interesting suggestion from the manual for my Pioneer SC-1222:



Huh? "Not parallel to the wall surface"?
confused.gif
eek.gif  

What? This is how I have my XS30 set at my room...........eek.gif

So, now what!?!?

tongue.gif


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post #5780 of 11697 Old 10-26-2013, 09:39 PM
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Well, here's my room, basically 28'x28'. Ceiling is a drop ceiling 7'2" and a further 8" behind that. For my measurements I covered the stove with 2 thick blankets. No treatments beyond hanging a blanket behind the MLP. The MLP is the end of the sofa next to the easy chair.

The polygon in the middle is a stairwell with a closet beneath it. I use that closet to keep some of the electronics.

There are 3 subs. One is at the end of the sofa, and the other two are at either end of the entertainment center. I want those two close to the mains for when the sub amp gets replaced/repaired.

Placing a sub anywhere along the wall behind the sofa causes a horrible thrumming about as bad as the Incredible Mr. Limpet.



Here's the FR. The dip between 600 and 800 is bad but that dip at 7k is crazy. Besides defective speakers what could be causing that? Suggestions for the type of treatments that can flatten the FR out a bit more?


Here's the waterfall. Everything below about 70Hz is a problem. Bass traps for that, I guess? I was reading that putting pink fluffy behind the drop ceiling in the corners would help. Anyone tried that?


What did I do wrong this time? Where do I go from here?

Thanks again in advance for your feedback.
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post #5781 of 11697 Old 10-26-2013, 10:05 PM
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An interesting and challenging room!

 

Regarding the big dip at 7K, this could be caused by interaction between your left and right speakers, especially if the mic is not exactly centered between the two.  Centering the mic is difficult, and you can get big swings in the higher frequencies.  Two suggestions:

 

1.  Measure Left+subs, and then Right+subs.  If the dip does not appear in these two graphs, then the dip in the combined graph is probably due to interaction.

2.  Place the mic in what you think is the center position, run a measurement of Left+Right+subs, move the mic a little to the right (only about an inch!), repeat the measurement, then move it to the left a bit, re-measure, etc.  Observe whether the dip at 7K changes when the mic is moved.  This is another indication that the dip is caused by interaction.

 

The waterfall actually looks good based on the parameters you have entered.  To dig a little deeper, do this:

 

1.  Open the RTA tool in REW, configure using the settings shown below, and click the red button to start the measurements.  Let it settle down (after averaging 32 measurements), and observe the noise floor in your listening room.  Of course, you should do this with as quiet a room as possible.  The noise floor should be somewhere between 40dB and 50dB.

2.  Configure the Waterfall vertical axis lower limit with the noise floor value you observed in step 1.  (You currently have 50dB configured, and this may well be the noise floor in your room.)

3.  Configure the Waterfall window to 450ms (vs. 600ms).

4.  Generate a new Waterfall and post the results.

 


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post #5782 of 11697 Old 10-27-2013, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Can someone explain how Keith gets improvements but then introduces a big null at 290hz?

 

It's not as bad as it looks. Unsmoothed trace there remember. When it's 1/6 smoothed it's just a dip of a few dB. And it's pretty narrow. But where it came from IDK.



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post #5783 of 11697 Old 10-27-2013, 02:11 AM
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Well, I am pleased you blazed the trail, Keith. You have saved me some time and money!

Seriously, it is always a bit disappointing if the results aren't what was expected. Your beginning graphs looked pretty good, and the ending graphs certainly don't look worse. You could always lower your MLP a few inches so it matches that better-looking waterfall. wink.gif

I have a similar little bump in my response in the 50-60Hz range, and numerous efforts to eliminate it have been unsuccessful. Perhaps we should just call it the Audyssey mid-bass compensation and leave it alone.

How about a picture of the modified traps, maybe from the end?

 

I wasn't too disappointed as I think there have been minor improvements - but I was hopeful that the problem at 50-60Hz might be improved more - but Sanjay has an informative view on that so maybe I was expecting too much.  I don't attach any real significance to subjective listening impressions but FWIW it does sound a little 'tighter' (subjectively). Maybe those small improvements at the bottom end which we can see on the graph make a disproportionately large audible improvement?

 

The modified traps look just the same as the originals - all I did was stuff a slab of insulation into the air gap. My room is so small that you can't actually see 'into' the traps from the ends from anywhere you would normally stand so there was no need to disguise the insulation at all. The one exception to that is the panel above the screen on the wall/ceiling corner where you can see into the end as you walk into the room - so I just wrapped it in some black Camira I had left over and it has become invisible. It's so freakin' dark in there, even with the lights on, that you can get away with a lot.

 

Would I go to the trouble and expense over again, knowing what I know now?  Possibly. At this level of development of our rooms, we can only expect fairly small incremental gains I think and that is what I have achieved. The cost has been minimal, relatively, (very soon I will be shelling out over $4,000 on a new PJ for example) and at least I know now that I have done all I can in this regard.

 

Would I recommend anyone else doing the same?  Not really - there may be better ways to spend the money, depending on the current gear etc the user has. 



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post #5784 of 11697 Old 10-27-2013, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I was trying to get rid of the problem at about 50-60Hz yet that seems pretty much unchanged. Comments welcome.
You'd need bass traps a couple feet thick (like the OP in the Double Bass Array thread is using) to see a noticeable change at such low frequencies. Your 10.5' long room's first length mode is around 54Hz. It will null at the midpoint of room length and peak at the front & back walls.



The peak you're seeing around 54Hz is likely due to your seating being near the back wall.



The typical solution discussed in this thread has been to place subs in nulls to prevent those frequencies from resonating. That won't be possible in your case because, if memory serves, your entry door on the right wall is at that location. There are a couple of other options you could try, but you'll have to decide whether the small 54Hz peak is worth the effort.

The first would require asymmetrical subwoofer placement: one at the midpoint of your left wall and the other at the midpoint of your back wall, which will address your first length and width modes, respectively. The other option is nearfield placement. The sides of your subs are wedge shaped to fit perfectly into corners. You could lay both down sideways and place them behind your seating (at the corner formed by your floor and back wall). No mode cancelling there, just the usual nearfield placement selling point (hear more of your subs and less of your room).

 

Thanks Sanjay. Yeah, traps 2ft thick are, of course, impossible in such a small room. I'd be happy to use such traps if the room could accommodate them, but it is what it is. Given what you say, and what your informative diagram shows, I will never be able to do much about that small 54Hz peak. I can't move the seating far enough forward to make much difference. Your memory is good - the entry door is indeed along that right wall, so that rules out potential solution. The other options are, I think, too much effort for a fairly small gain (and may bring another corresponding issue with them at some other frequency I would guess. Thanks for the helpful post and ideas though. I always value your interventions.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I would welcome comments and observations from the thread - especially with regard to whether anyone thinks the effort and expense of upgrading the treatments was worth it, or not.
Worth it to the extent that you were able to reduce eliminate the shallow dip and deep null caused by your first 2 height modes (both improvements are easily visible in the comparison graph).

EQ can bring down peaks, but can't do anything about nulls. So any time you're able to get rid of dips and nulls, you've come out ahead.
 
Yes, thanks for the encouragement. I am not unhappy with what has been achieved and at least I tried it, which is always worthwhile, even if only so one can say "well I have learned something".
 
Overall, the sound is remarkably good I think, for what is essentially a very difficult space. I never imagined I would be able to achieve such good SQ in this room and the system gives me considerable pleasure.


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post #5785 of 11697 Old 10-27-2013, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
 

That's from putting his fist through one of the surround speakers.

 

Haha. Yes, I have felt that way more than once... :)



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post #5786 of 11697 Old 10-27-2013, 05:37 AM
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Keith,

I take it that the subwoofer is too heavy to hang on the door itself? Of course, it would be quite likely to cause sympathetic vibrations in the door, as Pioneer warns about.

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post #5787 of 11697 Old 10-27-2013, 05:56 AM
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Keith,

I take it that the subwoofer is too heavy to hang on the door itself? Of course, it would be quite likely to cause sympathetic vibrations in the door, as Pioneer warns about.

 

LOL. I fear that it may be too heavy for the floor, let alone the door :D 

 

Sanjay has a good memory. I have already blocked off and concealed one door into the room (on the left wall/front wall corner) which took some negotiating skills I might add :) The only other entrance is the door on the right wall so I can't block that off or I would have to enter and exit the room via the window. Oh - I can't do that as the window is blocked with blackout blind and also has two GIK 244 panels on the windowsill, behind the curtains, which are permanently drawn of course. :)  Most Americans would laugh their socks off at the size of some of our European rooms!



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post #5788 of 11697 Old 10-27-2013, 09:17 AM
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This is the waterfall after adding the additional absorption:




There is some improvement but not where I expected it to be!  I was trying to get rid of the problem at about 50-60Hz yet that seems pretty much unchanged. Comments welcome.

Showing the importance of the measuring SPL, here is an 'after' waterfall made from a measurement taken at slightly lower level:




Big 'graphed' difference.

Hey Keith,
I see nobody commented about the difference between these two waterfalls, with about 3-5 db lower SPL level in the second "after" waterfall colored in green vs. the top one in purple. The difference in the charts demonstrates how a small difference in measurement may lead to radically different interpretations about the implications for your room. The top chart demonstrates that your new treatments did little work in solving your 50-70 Hz problem area (hence diminishing returns), while the second shows you've done a great job in having bass decay in your room above 40 Hz and probably had nothing to worry about in the first place. Still diminishing returns, but a more hopeful outcome. And both charts are at relatively loud levels, well above a reference 75-80 db level.

Jason tells us that we should be aiming for 40 to 45 db above the measured noise floor, and if you're striving for the ultimate improvement in your room, the first chart with the peak closer to 95 db would seem to be the "correct" one if you have the typical 50-55 db noise floor, and believe that REW can measure below the "observed" noise floor to up to 10 db below it as Jason noted. But for the many of us that can't comfortably measure at 95 db eek.gif, we're likely to draw the "wrong" conclusion about our room by going to a more conservative 85-90 db level.

However, my question: if we're NOT going to listen at more than 75 to 85 db average SPL in practical terms , why should we care about the difference between 90 and 95 db SPL on a waterfall unless we're getting bass peaks at that level above 40 Hz (i.e. the top of your waterfall chart)? Seaton Submersives are a special case, of course smile.gif.

I'm not saying ignorance is bliss, and as I noted previously, I like the idea of a 45 db floor for our graphs as our bottom line to show that our bass has decayed to a reasonable doubt, but that's assuming Jason's correct about the accuracy of measurements "below" the noise floor to an extent. But for normal listening, isn't this possibly chasing bass decay issues that might not be observable in real world listening conditions, for those of us that aren't watching action movies with deep ULF at high volumes?

Just asking....

Stuart

 

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post #5789 of 11697 Old 10-27-2013, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

This is the waterfall after adding the additional absorption:




There is some improvement but not where I expected it to be!  I was trying to get rid of the problem at about 50-60Hz yet that seems pretty much unchanged. Comments welcome.

Showing the importance of the measuring SPL, here is an 'after' waterfall made from a measurement taken at slightly lower level:




Big 'graphed' difference.


Hey Keith,
I see nobody commented about the difference between these two waterfalls, with about 3-5 db lower SPL level in the second "after" waterfall colored in green vs. the top one in purple. The difference in the charts demonstrates how a small difference in measurement may lead to radically different interpretations about the implications for your room. 

 

Yes indeed - I made the second 'after' chart deliberately to see the difference made by using a lower SPL for the measurements. It makes a big 'cosmetic' difference doesn't it?

 

Quote:

The top chart demonstrates that your new treatments did little work in solving your 50-70 Hz problem area (hence diminishing returns), while the second shows you've done a great job in having bass decay in your room above 40 Hz and probably had nothing to worry about in the first place. Still diminishing returns, but a more hopeful outcome. And both charts are at relatively loud levels, well above a reference 75-80 db level.

 

Yes - I swear I can hear a difference, but I know too much about expectation bias and sighted tests to place much store in that. I am happy anyway as the result is fairly good, even after applying the old diminishing returns law.

 

Quote:

Jason tells us that we should be aiming for 40 to 45 db above the measured noise floor, and if you're striving for the ultimate improvement in your room, the first chart with the peak closer to 95 db would seem to be the "correct" one if you have the typical 50-55 db noise floor, and believe that REW can measure below the "observed" noise floor to up to 10 db below it as Jason noted. But for the many of us that can't comfortably measure at 95 db eek.gif, we're likely to draw the "wrong" conclusion about our room by going to a more conservative 85-90 db level.

 

Yes, I would normally measure to about 95dB peak and use a noise floor of 45dB. That way I hope I am not cosmeticising the graph and deceiving myself. Here is the same graph with the noise floor limit set to 50dB. Looks even better of course :)

 

 

 

 

Quote:

 However, my question: if we're NOT going to listen at more than 75 to 85 db average SPL in practical terms , why should we care about the difference between 90 and 95 db SPL on a waterfall unless we're getting bass peaks at that level above 40 Hz (i.e. the top of your waterfall chart)? Seaton Submersives are a special case, of course smile.gif.

 

Funnily enough, I was pondering that very question while I was measuring yesterday. For example, here is the waterfall with the slightly lower test SPL, 50dB noise floor and now with a 300ms time slice applied... looks not too bad (other than my known and probably unresolvable issue at 50Hz):

 

 

 

I didn't ponder this for too long yesterday as I normally listen at -6dB from reference, so I am peaking at 106dB (bass) and 99dB average if all other things are equal. But those peaks only last for a few ms of course, so maybe we do attach too much importance to them. The real world is not the graphs world.

Quote:
I'm not saying ignorance is bliss, and as I noted previously, I like the idea of a 45 db floor for our graphs as our bottom line to show that our bass has decayed to a reasonable doubt, but that's assuming Jason's correct about the accuracy of measurements "below" the noise floor to an extent. But for normal listening, isn't this possibly chasing bass decay issues that might not be observable in real world listening conditions, for those of us that aren't watching action movies with deep ULF at high volumes?

Just asking....

 

Yes, I agree. The first chart in this post (45dB noise floor, 95dB peak) is the one I would normally use. Of course, even those of who ARE watching action movies at very high SPLs, the issue is a bit 'meh' - who cares if the explosions ring a bit? Do we really hear it that way? Or is it just more 'explosion'. I do want any bass in the score to be accurate and as tight as possible - but it will be as there isn't a lot of music below 40Hz anyway. And I like the mid and upper bass to be nice and tight... but for splosions, does it matter all that much? I'm not saying ignorance is bliss either - just putting a 'real world' context on it like you are. And how many movies in any case have much real content below 20Hz anyway?  Some for sure - but by no means all, or even many.



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post #5790 of 11697 Old 10-27-2013, 10:16 AM
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I see nobody commented about the difference between these two waterfalls, with about 3-5 db lower SPL level in the second "after" waterfall colored in green vs. the top one in purple. The difference in the charts demonstrates how a small difference in measurement may lead to radically different interpretations about the implications for your room.

What difference? The acoustically relevant areas look virtually the same.

Markus

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